New small wonders we'd like to see

[paulmagusnet]

New Small wonders.

1] Green Revolution: Early in the 1960s mechanized farming combined with new fertilizers and new strains of food crops to quadruple farm yields enabling farmers to feed millions more people. This accelerated the trend towards large corporate farms very large populations. Of course since this time the world is now largely dependent upon fossel fuel powered crop production and therefore vulnerable to suppy interruptions of these key resources.

Requires Oil and Saltpeter(nitrates) to operate, combustion and chemistry to build.

The wonder generates one extra food icon in any land square in any city in the host civilization that has an existing food icon. It will cease operating if Oil or Saltpeter are absent in that city's resource box.

2] Internet: Originated out of a US defense advance research project to securly link defense research sites, it spread to universities and buisiness. Eventually, with the development of consumer level access software (the web) internet access becomes almost universal. The nature of the internet serves to enhance both commerce and academic interests. A major concern about the internet is security.

Requires five universities, computer technology and the Pentagon. Power generation must be available any city for it to have effect in that city. If computers or micro chips are available as manufactured resurces, that should be in the city resource box.
Culture value: 2

The effectiveness and culture value of banks, police and universities is doubled and one person in each city is made content. Civilizations that have internets will tend to randomly export their technology to other internet civilizations, and stealing technology from another internet civilization will be very cheap. Spies will have a new ability to steal cash from other internet civilizations and to cause people to be unhappy.

3] Superconducting power grid: In current power transmission technology, fully half of generated power is lost every 150 miles. Once connected with a superconductor, all resistance originated losses will be eliminated. The consiquence is that fewer plants will supply more electricy using fewer resurces and generating less pollution.

Requires superconductor to build.

Doubles the effectiveness of any power plant, reduces pollution by one half.

4] Chemical/Bio warfare lab: Creating killer bugs became a hobby of the major powers during the cold war, though using disease to win battles is an ancient tactic. Because the technology is relatively cheap, a number of minor nations also developed bio weapon capability for use as terror weapons. Since dispersement of this type of weapon is somewhat probematic it has never been seriously considered as an effective weapon.

Requires a total absence of morals and the corporation.
Culture value: 1
Science value: doubles science for the city in which it is built.

Allows all units with an artillary type of attack to lob a bug at their target. The bug bomb will persist for several turns reducing the hit values of all units and population by at least one each turn. The cloud may randomly move to a new locaton. A new spy mission will appear, poison or infect city. A choice of a varity of bugs and chemicals will be available to the spy with interesting effects. Civilizotins with a positive reputation that discover the existance of this facility will have a negative reaction. Open use of CBW is an atrocity, discovered use of a clandestine attack is an atrocity and grounds for war. Other Civs with good reputations will tend to volunteer to ally aganst the perpetrator. Ironically, a CBW facility allows you to defend more successfully against any such attack and disease in general.

5] Disney Theme park: Millions of people flood these parks to buy over priced food, see insipid commercial displays and to be physically accelerated by various rides.

Requires corporation and electronics, or tourism as a sub technology of corporation.
Culture value: 0
Happy and unhappy citizens in the host city will be made content.

All wonders in the host civilization generate gold instead of culture, all harbors and airports generate gold equal to twice their maintenance costs. Each theme part built dilutes the income value of all existing theme parks. Ownership of the theme park can be sold or traded and the buyer reaps the profits of that park. If one civ gains ownership of all existing theme parks, there must be at least three such parks existing, that civ wins an entertainment victory. The theme park is expensive to maintain.

6] Auswich: In Poland the Nazis set up a death camp system of which Auswich (Oswich) was the center. In these camps over 20 million people were systematically murdered for being members of some objectionable minority or as enemies of the state. Most people were killed outright, but the camps were also part of an industrial complex where the workers were slaves to be worked to death. Probably the single most evil project since the black hole of calcutta and the turkesh murder of the armenians. Succeeded only by Stalin's murder of 40 million soviet nationals (at least that is, in shear volume).

Requires chemistry, corporation, a rail connection and sociopathic tendencies.
Culture value: -4
Makes two citizens content in every city.
Doubles production in the city where it is built, any library in that city will be instantly sold.

Any citizen or worker in the host empire can be instantly converted directly into gold and shields in any connected city. Defeated units can be converted if the battle occures on any connected square. Doing this constitutes an atrocity against that civilization. Discovery of this facility will produce a reaction negatively proportional to the reputation of the discovering civilization.

7] Superhighway: In 1955 President Eisenhower began a program of highway construction in the US, based upon the German autobahn, with the intent of being able to move goods, people and military units quickly from one part of the country to the other. The system has grown beyond all expectation and largely reduced the roll of railroads in commerce and civilian transport.

Requires combustion and construction to build, a supply of oil to operate.
Culture value: 2

Allows road movement to be equal to rail movement and markets to be more effective in all connected cities. Roads on tiles are recolored from brown (dirt) to white (concrete). Road construction time doubles.

8] Atomic clock: Central time device operated by the department of standards. Time is accurate to one second in 20 million years and is broadcast nationally on a special frequency and the internet.

Culture value: 1

All improvements and specialists in all connected cities produce one extra icon of the type relevant to that improvement or specialist.

9] Strategic Reserve: Due to the 1970's oil shortage, the US created a program of strategic reserve where old salt mines were converted to store a critical reserve of oil. During the cold war reserves of other strategic materials were created against the possibility of supply interruption.

Requires: The existance of at least ten oil dependent units
Culture value: 0

Excess (unused) resource and luxury icons are stored each turn in the reserve. Twenty Icons can be stored. If there is a defficit of any stored resource one icon of that resource will be released each turn until the supply is exhausted.

10] Central Grainery: The Bible fable of Jacob advising the Phaero of Egypt to build a central grainery against famine based upon a dream is well know and is mistakenly used as a basis for how the Great Pyramids operate in this game. More reciently, beginning in the mid 20th century, the US Department of agriculture began a program to purchase and store excess agriculture production as a means to avoid damaging price fluctuations. Often this excess food was given away in releif efforts at home and abroad.

Requires: Pottery
Culture value: 1

Allows the storage of excess food production which can then be redistributed to connected starving cities, sold or traded.

[justjake73]

All good except for Auschwitz. Even with the negative effects it is too evil, horrible and controversial to put in any "game." This board would be flooded with every kind of Neo-Nazi and racist scum imaginable.

[justjake73]

Television networks. Requires that a certain # of TV and power stations are built TV stations have intially 2 happy faces - with a network they generate 1 more and increase trade 10% (by commercials inspiring conspicuos consumption)

Constitution: Requires you be in a Republic or Democracy and have a certain number of printing presses and / or tv stations (for freedom of the press). Increases trade by 20% in each city (through a feeling that one's rights and freedoms are guaranteed) but increase unhappy faces in each city by 1 (increased freedom = increased crime). War weariness is reduced SIGNIFICANTLY more than without a Con. for going to war to support allies or if your nation has been attacked (your people are patriotic and know you are defending Freedom and their way of life).

[paulmagusnet]

Originally posted by justjake73
All good except for Auschwitz. Even with the negative effects it is too evil, horrible and controversial to put in any "game." This board would be flooded with every kind of Neo-Nazi and racist scum imaginable.

I considered these points and feel that it is more important to aknowledge the truth, no matter how ugly. If you have ever been to this place (I have), you would truely understand how evil it is and why it should not be forgotten.

How more appropriate is it that the AI and players gleefully nuke and starve our little electronic populations? Including such things as nukes and death camps shows that these things are not abnormalities but have strong, seductive incentives to do. It does not make them right, but they are a very significant part of our history.

Actually I fear the 'PC' moral guardians far more than the nazi crowd, the neo-nazi's at least know that they are evil.

Should we staple and limit our minds so that we only think good thoughts? Some people will feel that we should and that certain values are more important than any principle. These are the type of people who become Taliban, nazis or republicans.

[Xentropy]

Err, the vast majority of these are much too overpowered (yes, even though everyone can build their own, too) and/or difficult to program, even as an expansion pack, much less a patch. A game with all these wonders built would be insane, 7 food 7 shields 7 commerce from each tile practically, plus so many weird much too powerful abilities being used back and forth... it'd turn the game cartoonish, to be honest...

I found Superhighways interesting, minus the double build time, basically a wonder or advance that makes roads equivalent to railroads, but it really wouldn't fit, balance-wise, in the game anywhere. To get it along with or soon after railroads wouldn't be realistic (trains a few solid steps before automobiles technologically), so by the time you got it, you'd probably have already replaced all your roads with rails. Too early, it's overpowered, too late, it's worthless. So best not to have that one at all either :<

[paulmagusnet]

I really like that Idea, but i disagree that crime would increase. A constitution serves to limit the actions of govenment, thus making risk predictable. Generally, crime shifts place from government to the streets, rather than there being more crime.

It would probably be more appropriate as a civilization advance derived from code of law and philosophy. You can have a constitutional monarchy, and get all the stability and freedom benefits.

Only in a dictatorship is a constitution useless. Your could build it but it would not function.

[Jumping Choya]

Just because it's in real life doesn't mean we should put it into a game - games like this don't exist to educate people about horrors committed by a now defunct regime.

The World Trade Centers were attacked by terrorists - does that mean the next game should have a random terrorist attack that treats you to a video of people falling out of skyscraper windows? Of course not.

Keep the ugly out of the game. If a person needs to know it, they should read a book.

[paulmagusnet]

Originally posted by Xentropy
Err, the vast majority of these are much too overpowered (yes, even though everyone can build their own, too) and/or difficult to program, even as an expansion pack, much less a patch. A game with all these wonders built would be insane, 7 food 7 shields 7 commerce from each tile practically, plus so many weird much too powerful abilities being used back and forth... it'd turn the game cartoonish, to be honest...

I found Superhighways interesting, minus the double build time, basically a wonder or advance that makes roads equivalent to railroads, but it really wouldn't fit, balance-wise, in the game anywhere. To get it along with or soon after railroads wouldn't be realistic (trains a few solid steps before automobiles technologically), so by the time you got it, you'd probably have already replaced all your roads with rails. Too early, it's overpowered, too late, it's worthless. So best not to have that one at all either :<

Thank you, I do want the criticism.

I agree, they are all powerful. Most modern wonders ARE very powerful, but also very vulnerable. The green revolution in particular has been responsible for a tremendous population explosion and an utter dependence on oil. What you get, if you are not careful or unlucky is the classic dieoff situation when one of the resources is cut.

Superhighways use a different resource set than rail. Historically rail did develop first. But the advantages of highways both as transport and economic stimulants out classed the rail quickly. So an change to reflect that is in order.

The fact is that as we reached the end of the twentith century and in the 21st the world really has accelerated. All these suggestions are based on real accomplishments. But these are just off the top of my head suggestions as to how they should function. Obviously a lot of refinement is in order.

Things like the green revolution few people even realize that it happened and the game designers obviously never thought of it, but it really, significantly change the whole world in a fundimental way. Not all positive.

[paulmagusnet]

Originally posted by Jumping Choya
Just because it's in real life doesn't mean we should put it into a game - games like this don't exist to educate people about horrors committed by a now defunct regime.

The World Trade Centers were attacked by terrorists - does that mean the next game should have a random terrorist attack that treats you to a video of people falling out of skyscraper windows? Of course not.

Keep the ugly out of the game. If a person needs to know it, they should read a book.

Yes, games like Civilization, the progress of humanity and war, should only show the joys of conventional war and nuking your neighbors. God forbid we should learn about something contraversial.

No, I wouldn't include videos of the falling towers, it takes up too much space.

Unfortuatly, most people don't read books, so game are where they learn most of what they know.

You advocate ignoring one of the most infamoust events of the 20th century on the basis that it was not nice?

[Jumping Choya]

I simply don't see what true purpose a death camp has in a game. Is there any need to have a camp symbolizing woman and children being executed for arbitrary purposes?

I'm not against learning controversial things - but for crying out loud, why the hell in an E rated game? There's plenty of history books out there for those wanting to learn about Nazi history. If they don't read those books, they can remain uninformed.

No, I wouldn't include videos of the falling towers, it takes up too much space.

Assume they play off the CD. Then would you include it?

Nuclear weapons are included in the game, yes. But when have nuclear weapons been used in history? Twice, on the Japanese. But the bombs were smaller and don't compare to what a modern nuclear war would have been. And besides, the nukes are vaguely named - they're not called "Hiroshima Busters!". The Auschwitz, on the other hand, is quite specific in what it refers to.

People don't buy Civilization III to learn about history. Oh sure, they may pick up something by reading the Civilopedia, but that's not the point. If you're so concerned about "education", why doesn't the game give in depth information on how your muskets work? And why doesn't it give the technical details when you discover Physics? The reason is simple: it's not that kind of game. It's not here to educate you, and certainly not to educate you on the nastier parts of earth's history.

Out of place, pure and simple. Not advocating ignorance.

[paulmagusnet]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Jumping Choya
I simply don't see what true purpose a death camp has in a game. Is there any need to have a camp symbolizing woman and children being executed for arbitrary purposes?

Actually, yes. Now that we have undesirable residents in our captured cities, we need an effecient way to dispose of them besides starvation, which is much too slow and unreliable. Actually, most of the victums will be electrons, not woman and children (do we ever really care about men?)

Is there any need to have a device that symbolizes the flash fry of tens of thousands of women and children (and men), just because it was historical fact?
-------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not against learning controversial things -

- as long as they are not controversial
------------------------------------------------------
but for crying out loud, why the hell in an E rated game? There's plenty of history books out there for those wanting to learn about Nazi history. If they don't read those books, they can remain uninformed.

Because in an E game it is accomplished in an absrtact fashon, not in detail.

Actually, you are correct, there are many ignorant people out there who will never pick up a book and who will remain uninformed. And how will they get the idea that they could pick up a book and read about this?
-----------------------------------------------------------
No, I wouldn't include videos of the falling towers, it takes up too much space.

Assume they play off the CD. Then would you include it?

Absolutely, along with Nagasaki victoms, concentration camp victoms, beautiful cathedrals, all the other works of man that comprise civilization.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Nuclear weapons are included in the game, yes. But when have nuclear weapons been used in history? Twice, on the Japanese. But the bombs were smaller and don't compare to what a modern nuclear war would have been. And besides, the nukes are vaguely named - they're not called "Hiroshima Busters!". The Auschwitz, on the other hand, is quite specific in what it refers to.

? I'm not sure I follow the logic here? Maby we should use a nice euphamism to make it more acceptable?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
People don't buy Civilization III to learn about history.

Wow!
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Oh sure, they may pick up something by reading the Civilopedia, but that's not the point. If you're so concerned about "education", why doesn't the game give in depth information on how your muskets work? And why doesn't it give the technical details when you discover Physics? The reason is simple: it's not that kind of game. It's not here to educate you, and certainly not to educate you on the nastier parts of earth's history.

This sentence speaks for itself, I just can't add anything more sarcastic.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Out of place, pure and simple.

It's all those pure and simple things that really frighten me, like 'lets go kill those dirty Jews', that's pure and simple, yes?

You should read some quotes from Hitler's speaches about being pure, simple and ingnorant as virtues.
---------------------------------------------------
Not advocating ignorance.

Just that we should ignore things that have to do with conflict, war, civilization and history as inappropriate for a game called civilization because we have some negative emotional response.

[dweez]

Nice wonders, the ones that I would like to see are:

1) Labor Union
When built it will allow you to group your units and move them as one.

2) Time Machine
When built it will allow you to end your turns without having the several minutes delay.

3) KGB
When built it will adjust the espionage prices making it actually possible to perform any espionage missions at all.

4) Hollywood
Will provide you with nice movies for every other wonder you build.

[Expatriate]

Originally posted by Jumping Choya
Just because it's in real life doesn't mean we should put it into a game - games like this don't exist to educate people about horrors committed by a now defunct regime.

The World Trade Centers were attacked by terrorists - does that mean the next game should have a random terrorist attack that treats you to a video of people falling out of skyscraper windows? Of course not.

Keep the ugly out of the game. If a person needs to know it, they should read a book.

I realize that most people in and outside of the US were very shocked by the attack on WTC, but comparing it to death camps of WWII is silly. Millions of people died in those camps after being first starved and abused as slave labour. So the death camps were a thousand times worse when you look at the number of people that died.

Another posted wrote that they should never be forgotten and I think he is right about that. The main purpoise of the game is not to educate, but neither is it to hide the horrible things that has happened in human history. Everytime we cut some bit of terrible history to "protect the masses from its horror" we are potentially allowing the same thing to happen again someday in the future.


However, I do think that they should be ingame as a more generalized kind of concentration camp. The nazis were not the first (or last) to use this kind of genocide, and especially native people have been subjected to it when the great european powers colonized new lands.

[Expatriate]

Originally posted by dweez
Nice wonders, the ones that I would like to see are:

3) KGB
When built it will adjust the espionage prices making it actually possible to perform any espionage missions at all.

KGB should actually make spying more expensive. At one point the Sovietunion was using 15% of its GNP just for spy satelittes!

[paulmagusnet]

Originally posted by Expatriate


KGB should actually make spying more expensive. At one point the Sovietunion was using 15% of its GNP just for spy satelittes!

A good book to read about the KGB is 'The Sword and Shield' by a defected former officer.

Basically, the KGB was comprised of a whole lot of thugs.

They were successful in two areas overall: technology theft and internal repression.

Everything else was pretty much a flop for them. Stealing technology was supprisingly cheap, at least as far as the purchase price, the expensive part was maintaining all the infrastructure.

Unfortunately, most of what they stole they couldn't use. The idea they shouldl have stolen, a free market, they didn't want.

They're best success was internal supression of dissent, and of course, the murder of nearly 40 milliion of their fellow citizens.

So, if you have a KGB small wonder, your fixed costs skyrocket and you get lots of stolen tech that you can't implement. But you have a spy mission button thet kills off all your happy and unhappy citizens.

[Thrawn05]

I got an idea, how about a European Union small wonder? It would pool all productivity and money into one fund that each civ that built it shares, also increases likelyhood that another civ would agree to a MPP without coughing up some extra money to con them into it. Also, it loses its effect when you declare war (not through a MPP, or defending yourself).

Since it pools the money and all, could you imagine what you'll get if everyone also had a wall street?

IDK, it sounds good, but I could be wrong.

[BanastreTa]

The best idea for a small wonder is already included in the game; the Manhattan Project.

It was a bad feature in Civ 2 allowing any Civ to build nukes after the Manhattan project. Manhattan P was a broken wonder, at the best a waste of shields and at the worst giving a tool to your opponents for free (this wasn't much of a problem until multiplayer, since the AI wasn't very good at deploying nukes, in my experience).

It surprises me that in Civ 3, now that the game designers have a perfect foil to correctly implement the manhattan project and nukes--the small wonder--that they did not do so. And, as of yet, I haven't seen anybody successfully be able to hack it into a small wonder using the editor.

As for my own creative additions to the wonders canon, it is still too early in the morning.

BT (no reason for the smile, other than to utilize the cool new santa hats)

[sophist]

Originally posted by justjake73

Constitution: Requires you be in a Republic or Democracy and have a certain number of printing presses and / or tv stations (for freedom of the press). Increases trade by 20% in each city (through a feeling that one's rights and freedoms are guaranteed) but increase unhappy faces in each city by 1 (increased freedom = increased crime). War weariness is reduced SIGNIFICANTLY more than without a Con. for going to war to support allies or if your nation has been attacked (your people are patriotic and know you are defending Freedom and their way of life).

Of course, first we need a Printing Press (Publishing House?) improvement. I would argue that unhappy faces are increased because people are better informed and better able to band together, but I guess the effects are the same.

I also agree with a Constitution being permissible in all governments besides Despotism, and perhaps Communism.

Auschwitz = bad idea. The rest of these look pretty good. I especially like Green Revolution and Superconducting Power Grid.

Re: bio warfare; that was originally in the game. It's in the docs, so I'm guessing it was yanked post-September 11.

[mtgillespie]

I just thought it was funny that you gave the internet a culture rating

[Deornwulf]

I would like to see the effects of wonders randomizes within set parameters for each one. The architects may have had an idea of what they wished to accomplish in building the "great thing" but could they have truly predicted the impact the wonder would have on civilization.

Reality aside and more to the point since Civ is a game, a bit of randomness would increase the replay value of the game. One would not have a set strategy to what wonders to build in what order to achieve a victory. For me, every civ game I play, regardless of difficulty setting boils down to the same predictable pattern of building improvements and wonders.

I do not mean that after building the Pyramids that you would end up with your galleys being safer at see and having increased movement but that each wonder could be given a set of bonuses from which to randomly pick once the wonder is completed. In one game the Pyramids might improve the industry of the city in which they are built, in another increase the trade of the city or another act as a free temple in ever city. (These off-the-cuff examples are not really balanced.)

The effects would have to be well-thought out to keep them from being too unbalancing. Of course, all of the possible effects would have to worthwhile for the expenditure made for the improvement.

[dweez]

Originally posted by Thrawn05
I got an idea, how about a European Union small wonder? It would pool all productivity and money into one fund that each civ that built it shares, also increases likelyhood that another civ would agree to a MPP without coughing up some extra money to con them into it. Also, it loses its effect when you declare war (not through a MPP, or defending yourself).

Since it pools the money and all, could you imagine what you'll get if everyone also had a wall street?

IDK, it sounds good, but I could be wrong.

This "wonder" should of course increase corruption as well.

[Disgracian]

The MCG (Melbourne Cricket Ground)

It may be the greatest sporting stadium in the world, but is not without its setbacks. While it is the very acme of grandeur and a source of pride for the city, the rest of your empire experiences severe jealousy.

Effects:
* Up to 10 happy citizens in the city where it is built.
* 2 unhappy citizens in every other city.
* Generates 2 culture per turn


The Mega-Mall

Massive shopping centres that come with standard issue fast-food emporiums, general purpose stores, boutiques, carparks, etc. Sure, they're convenient, but they kill local business and are really quite decadent.

Effects:
* Doubles the effect of all marketplaces.
* 1 unhappy citizen (bankrupt small business owners) in all cities.
* All cities generate 5 less culture per turn.


The Olympic Games

The battlefield of the new world. Once upon a time, nations competed for dominance with sword, shield, axe and bow. Now in this enlightened age, they compete with shotput, discus, javelin and ...uhh...err, uneven parallel bars.

They are held every 20 turns (an abstract value, more for game balance than any reflection of realism) in a random civilisation and run for, say, 5 turns. Tax revenue in the host city is increased by 200%, maybe more, to reflect massive influx of tourist money pouring into the local economy.

The winning nation experiences huge initial benefits that slowly taper down to nothing by the time the next Olympics are scheduled.

Effects:
* Allows the construction of Sports Academies.
* Revenue and luxury output doubled in all cities for winning civilisation. Benefits reduce gradually over time.


Cure for AIDS
replaces Longevity

The grim spectre of death is finally removed from the joyous act of procreation. Now it may be committed with reckless abandon.

Effects:
* Increases city growth factor from 1 to 2.
* 2 happy citizens in all cities.
* Generates 1 culture per turn.

[Zealot]

Originally posted by justjake73
All good except for Auschwitz. Even with the negative effects it is too evil, horrible and controversial to put in any "game." This board would be flooded with every kind of Neo-Nazi and racist scum imaginable.

I totally agree with you. Down with Auchwitz.

[Jumping Choya]

Actually, yes. Now that we have undesirable residents in our captured cities, we need an effecient way to dispose of them besides starvation, which is much too slow and unreliable. Actually, most of the victums will be electrons, not woman and children (do we ever really care about men?)

I'm able to get along just fine with no Auschwitz. I've never lost a city after a conquest, and I've done plenty of it.

And hey, drop the "I'm cool cuz I'm sarcastic" tone. Of course the victims won't be real.

And I mentioned women and children only because they were primarily the ones who were executed outright - the men were sent around to do heavy, undesireable labor.

Actually, you are correct, there are many ignorant people out there who will never pick up a book and who will remain uninformed. And how will they get the idea that they could pick up a book and read about this?

Duh...they go to school, they talk with people, get the History or Discovery Channel...as popular as Civilization III has been, there are MANY more people out there who haven't even heard of it yet would still manage to learn about the death camp.

The concept of relying on a computer game to spread knowledge is absurd. Perhaps the next game should also get updates every week that gives me hints on reading material I would like? Maybe recommend a novel for my uninfomred, uneducated self?

Absolutely, along with Nagasaki victoms, concentration camp victoms, beautiful cathedrals, all the other works of man that comprise civilization.

You're rather sick. Civilization is not comprised of victims. It's comprised of many other things that don't involve mass death. Terrorist attacks and death camps are NOT normal occurances and therefore don't find their way into the game. Sadistic events is not, and will not, be the aim of the Civilization series. Not only would the developers find it morally disturbing, but they look at it from a business sense: how many people out there would buy a game that treats you to videos of people hitting sidewalks, radiation victims, people being shot? A lot less than you think.

? I'm not sure I follow the logic here? Maby we should use a nice euphamism to make it more acceptable?

Um, sure. How's this: instead of calling you with a deranged view of what belongs in a game, I'll say that you're the kind of good guy with alternate desires in computer gaming. Euphamistic enough? (That was a funny joke there, I'm not being serious about you being a deranged maniac or anything. I'm sure you're a wonderful human being)

Put it this way (in relation to nuclear weapons): nukes have been used only as a means of ending a war, and probably resulted in less deaths for both sides than if they hadn't been used (since there would have been massive civilian casualties if the American troops had to go through nearly every Japanese city to force a surrender). The death camp, on the other hand, served no real purpose except carry out Hitler's agenda. There was no reason to put so many people to death, on the grounds they weren't German or were Jewish, etc.

Wow!

Yeah!
This sentence speaks for itself, I just can't add anything more sarcastic.

Wit and cleverness around every corner with you. So, er, what do you mean?

It's all those pure and simple things that really frighten me, like 'lets go kill those dirty Jews', that's pure and simple, yes?

You should read some quotes from Hitler's speaches about being pure, simple and ingnorant as virtues.

Umm, what the hell?

Just that we should ignore things that have to do with conflict, war, civilization and history as inappropriate for a game called civilization because we have some negative emotional response.

No, wrong. Please stop misinterpretting me. I just don't think

"We've got to teach the people! Deploy Civilization III!"

because people just won't learn about things like the Auschwitz from the game. They'll think, "Hey, I'll build this whatever thing because it kills people and gets me shields. Cool!"

There are plenty of other channels for learning out there. War and conflict have their place in the game because that is essential to empire building. Mass extermination, and symoblizing a Nazi death camp, is not part of normal civilizations.

I think it all comes down to differing views of just what Civilization III (and its successors) is all about. You think that every little detail of civilization should be in the game, while I think that a more broad sense is what is in order and that there's no need for horrific things like the Auschwitz to be represented. And if that's the issue here, there's really nothing either of us could do to change the other's opinion.

BTW, the concepts for your other ideas are good, but just a little too powerful.

[Malleus]

I can't remember the name of the law, but it's a usenet law that whenever Hitler or Nazism is brought up in a thread, it's officially over and no real informaion will be exchanged from that point on....cheers!

The main idea out of this that I like is the addition of a new improvement to my game: Amusement Park.
Makes 2 unhappy citizens content.
3 upkeep

K

[Expatriate]

New small wonder:

---
Interment Camp

Removes one resistor of foreign nationality from any city you conquer each turn. For each resistor removed in this manner the city will have an extra unhappy citizen for the next 20 turns.

Culture: 0

Historically camps like this have been used by many nations in many periods on human history. Often used to control the native populations of newly conquered colonies (american indians)or to contain ethnic minorities that the country sees as a threat (american japanese during WWII).
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See? This doesnt have to be about Auswitz or the other horrible camps employed by the nazis. The US has done things that were just as nasty, although on a smaller scale. Most of the great european colonial powers did the same things. Therefore, this is a major part of human history and has affected at least as many people as Shakespear's Theatre or the Collosus.

Personally I can get by just fine without having this in Civ III, but the reason for not including should never be political correctness. PC makes me sick, and in some ways I think its the greatest threat our civilazation faces. The PC crowd wants to censor free speech in the name of "protecting the masses from the horrible thruth". At least the nazis didnt try to excuse their censorship with that lie.

[Nakar Gabab]

Out of morbid curiosity, does anyone REALIZE the cultural impact of the Internet, TV, and "pop culture" in general? Mass media, Hollywood, the music industry... they've given American culture of today the Civ3 equivalent of a 3x or 4x or more boost. You can find posters of Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods in African tribal villages, for crying out loud. Of course this can't be modeled in-game accurately, for balance purposes... but the cultural potential of being dominant in the modern age is... staggering.

[Provost Harrison]

I would still like to see the WTC as a wonder, I reckon it's stature should guarantee that, even if it has been destroyed. Perhaps it could give a certain amount of gold to the host civ per trade route in existence or something!

[Expatriate]

Originally posted by Nakar Gabab
Out of morbid curiosity, does anyone REALIZE the cultural impact of the Internet, TV, and "pop culture" in general? Mass media, Hollywood, the music industry... they've given American culture of today the Civ3 equivalent of a 3x or 4x or more boost. You can find posters of Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods in African tribal villages, for crying out loud. Of course this can't be modeled in-game accurately, for balance purposes... but the cultural potential of being dominant in the modern age is... staggering.

I would argue that if we stick to ingame terms, then the US has won a cultural victory in the real world. The massive US influence on the rest of the world is a result of that "cultural victory", not the the means

Fortunatly, someone was smart enough to press that button with "Play just a few more turns"

[Expatriate]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
I would still like to see the WTC as a wonder, I reckon it's stature should guarantee that, even if it has been destroyed. Perhaps it could give a certain amount of gold to the host civ per trade route in existence or something!

Its allready there under the name Wall Street.