"Won't acknowledge your envoy"

[sianews]

What the hell. I started a war with the Iroquis in 1918. I quickly overrun their must populus city on turn one. OIn turn two I captured their city. The won't accpet my enoy by 1935, so I attack another city and take it. They sign a MPP with England, so I turned that against them by signing one with England to. I sat by and let the Iroquis attack me and now I have England on my side. Everything is stacked against them in 1942 - and they still won't accpet my envoy. Add this to the next patch list .

[David Murray]

Add what to the next patch?

Making the AI give up more easily?

Why are you seeking peace if all the odds are in your favour anyway?

[Sarxis]

Well, Al Qaeda isn't acknowledging the U.S.' envoy either.


Go figure..

[Jeje2]

I had similiar events in my game too.

Playing on regent it I had to take five cities, before they would listen to me and even then they thought that I wasn't knocking on their doors.

So try to take five cities and then contact your worthy opponent.

[Ming]

Yeah... the best way to get them to talk to you is just to keep crushing them. Eventually, they WILL talk

But what really ticks me off is... you are having a great little war with some one, usually over a strategic resource. During that time, another civ gets involved due to a MP pack with who you are fighting with. You take the resource, and then make peace with your original opponent... But the new guy won't talk to you, even though you have made peace with the person that dragged him into war in the first place. Makes a lot of sense

[Velociryx]

I agree with Ming.

If they will not talk to you, then there is only one proper response.

March a largish army up to their nearest city, and loudly announce:

All Your Base, Are Belong To Me!

::nods::

Yep....that'll do it....



-=Vel=-

[Be Quicker]

n/t

[Venger]

The AI will, at times, allow you to totally destroy them without EVER seeing your envoy. This has happened multiple times. The Russians started a fight, which I didn't want, I took their cities 4 at a time, sacked the capital about 6 different times, and NEVER was able to have diplomacy.

The Russians, who again attacked me along a shared border, had an MPP with the English and French. Neither of these Civs will take my Envoy either, despite the fact that I am rolling the English up at 4 cities a turn. Same for the French.

It almost seems like it's a game design that makes peace unattainable for a democracy, forcing the government to fall. And it sucks.

Venger

[sianews]

And thats the other thing. If your at war - but don't go to combat with a civ - they should be willing to accept your envoy quicker.

[LostLamb]

Playng on some huge maps, I've banished AI Civs to the other side of the globe (how they got there I don't know), where they refuse to make peace despite the fact that we have no way of waging war on each other.

It screws my democracy, and I have no way of forcing them to the table.

If there has been no combat between nations at war for a set number of turns (10 maybe?), civs should be able to unilaterally declare peace.

[E_T]

Originally posted by LostLamb
Playng on some huge maps, I've banished AI Civs to the other side of the globe (how they got there I don't know), where they refuse to make peace despite the fact that we have no way of waging war on each other.

It screws my democracy, and I have no way of forcing them to the table.

If there has been no combat between nations at war for a set number of turns (10 maybe?), civs should be able to unilaterally declare peace.

Or at least to be able to negotiate a Cease Fire. That's one thing that I missed from Civ II.

Happy Yule

E_T

[HawaiiFive-O]

This does get out of hand on occasion. I think it depends on how mad they (the AI) are at you.

Case in point, the Greeks declare war on me. I promptly seize their three nearest cities, carving up their Hoplites with my Cavalry. I give Alexander a ring, no dice he won't talk.

OK, no prob, I fight my way through a jungle corridor, seizing three more cities for little loss. Still won't talk.

I'm on the verdant grasslands of Greece now. No jungles to slow my Cavalry. I've lost maybe 2-3 UNITS, he's lost 6 cities. Still won't talk.

OK, you painted freak (I mumble to myself), now you are going to get it.

TWELVE cities later, still won't talk to me. I switch to Communism to avoid my government falling down around my ears.

At this point, Alexander's got something like 8 cities left. He's suffered defeat after defeat, lost city after city. I want to make peace because I'm tired of whipping his painted behind, but no dice. Still won't talk.

Finally, in a fit of frustration, I enlist the Iroquois, Japanese, and Russians in the partitioning of Greece. I couldn't attack directly as the Greeks had just signed a MPP with the Zulus, and we shared a long border.

It was with some pleasure that I wouldn't acknowledge Alexander's envoys when he finally started squealing for peace.

[Xentropy]

I also think it's too difficult to declare peace.. on the other hand, I don't understand this "fallen democracy" thing Venger and a couple of other people have complained about..

Maybe the chances of a democratic fall are significantly higher at higher difficulties, but at regent, I've been at war as a democracy for hundreds of turns without a break, and while war weariness will go up and down over that period (down briefly as I win wars, up as I'm losing, up slowly over time in general if I don't continue to win, down slowly over time in general if nothing is really HAPPENING with the war), I've never had my people overthrow the democracy altogether..

It seems to me, at least in the games I've played, if you're in one of those "wars" where neither side is DOING much of anything warlike, the people stop caring (war weariness drops slowly). It's only when actively attacking or defending that the people get upset if you lose, happy briefly if you win then upset about you still having the men overseas, etc.

[TheHobbit]

They need to make something in the next patch to make the AI less snotty. Its just unreal how they refuse to listen and they insult you when they are half your size because they consider themselves a god. I think they need a patch that adds some way to make the AI tremble in fear or get it off its high horse...

All I mean is the AI thinks too highly of itself even if its civilization sucks.

[XPav]

I would bet that the different Civs act differently. Has anyone ever had Gandhi refuse to talk?

I should also point out that you, as the human player, can do the exact same thing and not listen to an envoy or accept peace, to see if you can drive the opponent's Democracy into revolt.

Seems fair to me!

[Velociryx]

Boy do I ever agree! In my current game (Marla's Earth map, as the french), I have the English reduced to the miserable town of Hastings on Ireland.

In my last diplomatic exchange to me, not only was she rude, but she closed with:

"....then I, Elizabeth, ruler of too many places to name....blah....blah...BLAH"

and I felt like saying, NO....you're the ruler of a single size 4 town, you wench! And you're only alive because I haven't seen fit to end the miserable existence of your entire civilization!!!


GRRR....


::Rodney Dangerfield voice::
I get no respect....no respect.....



-=Vel=-

[davwhitt]

I have noticed the AI seems more likely to agree to acknowledge my envoy immediately after I have taken a city of theirs. If I try at the start of a turn before attacking they are more likely to ignore my envoy.

[Spatzimaus]

I was playing a six-player game, two continents. I was on the larger one, and had invaded all three of my neighbors (Chinese- gotta love Riders). The smaller continent had the English and the Persians, and the Persians had mostly conquered the English. I was winning the game easily, and was about three turns away from a spaceship victory, when one of my cities built the U.N.

Wisely, I chose not to call an election. The English and Persians IMMEDIATELY declared war on me. Their ironclads and galleons full of knights and Immortals (and even a few Cavalry!) landed on my shores. Of course, my AEGIS cruisers, mechanized infantry and modern armor made short work of them. I delayed finishing the spaceship long enough to built 20 ICBMs and hit every enemy city over size 6 (with two shots on each capital just to be safe). Incidentally, my score went up.

Point is, the AI doesn't exactly make rational decisions here.

[justjake73]

[quote]It was with some pleasure that I wouldn't acknowledge Alexander's envoys when he finally started squealing for peace.[quote]

Reminds me of a Star Trek Next Gen episode.

Alien race thinks humans are inferior. Won't talk, very arrogant. Finally Picard finds a part of the LOOOONNNNGG treaty that will benefit the Federation. The ball's in his court. The aliens hail the Enterprise:

Worf: Sir, the Sheliak are hailing us...
(beeping of hail notice is heard)
Picard walks over to the ship's dedication plaque.
(beep beep)
Riker: Captain?
Picard wipes dust off the plaque.
(beep beep)
Picard walks over to his chair
Picard: On screen.

Later:
Riker: "You enjoyed that."
Picard: "You're damned right."

[Venger]

Xentropy -

I guess that's possible - no action may make the war weariness go down.

Alas, I am a man of action...

Venger

[squeeze truck]

Originally posted by TheHobbit

All I mean is the AI thinks too highly of itself even if its civilization sucks.

And that is unrealistic how?

[Barchan]

Perhaps the AI is irrational (or, rather, poorly programmed), but haven't you ever played a MP game where at least one of the players goes into "bitter me" mode and won't agree to anything, no matter how reasonable the proposal. There are times when even human players decide "well, f*** it, I'm just going to fight to the death" even when they could take peace and perhaps recover their position.

Also, sometimes when it's clear that someone is in position to win the game, human players will make a desperate assault on the leader to try to keep him from winning, even if it means flinging your knights and swordsmen at his mechanized infantry and armor. I mean, if you're going to lose anyway, why not go down swinging?

Just my observations from numerous MP gaming sessions....

[Xentropy]

Originally posted by Venger
Xentropy -

I guess that's possible - no action may make the war weariness go down.

Alas, I am a man of action...

Venger

Heh, I'm pretty active in my wars as well. My point is, the way war weariness works on regent level at least seems to me how it SHOULD work. If you're actively waging a war, as long as you're WINNING, you can be in the same long war with the same enemy for five hundred turns without your democracy falling.

I don't understand how a democracy can ever fall, unless you're losing badly anyway, since one of three things happens:

1) Neither of you is very active in the war, war weariness drops;

2) You're taking a city every other turn, war weariness drops;

or, 3) You're getting your ass kicked, war weariness is the least of your problems.

I know the third isn't happening to you, Venger, since I've seen your accounts of two hundred cities, blitzing an AI and killing them the same turn you declare war, etc. So what is happening? Give an example of what's going on in a game where your democracy falls? It seems to me war weariness may be set to act differently on higher difficulty levels :<

And what are the results of this fall? Can you choose democracy again in 5 turns when the anarchy is done? Or do you have to choose something else, but can then go right back into anarchy to go back to democracy? You act like this one thing kills your game, so is it even worse than either of those, it locks out democracy for the rest of that game?!

Mostly just trying to understand what causes this for others so I can continue my streak of it never happening to me in ~15 games despite being consistantly warlike and republican/democratic ;>

[Venger]

Originally posted by Xentropy
Heh, I'm pretty active in my wars as well. My point is, the way war weariness works on regent level at least seems to me how it SHOULD work. If you're actively waging a war, as long as you're WINNING, you can be in the same long war with the same enemy for five hundred turns without your democracy falling.

This is utterly incorrect. I have had my Democracy take a hit THREE times - the last time I said screw it and changed Democracy to Republics war weariness - it was the only way to not throw this game out the window.

I don't understand how a democracy can ever fall, unless you're losing badly anyway, since one of three things happens:

1) Neither of you is very active in the war, war weariness drops;

2) You're taking a city every other turn, war weariness drops;

or, 3) You're getting your ass kicked, war weariness is the least of your problems.

I know the third isn't happening to you, Venger, since I've seen your accounts of two hundred cities, blitzing an AI and killing them the same turn you declare war, etc. So what is happening? Give an example of what's going on in a game where your democracy falls? It seems to me war weariness may be set to act differently on higher difficulty levels :<

I am kicking the AI's ass. I lose very few units (because the units and resources model breaks the AI) and am rolling them up. My government simply falls, mind you, I have 300 military units rolling overseas. I am convinced that it's due to my rate of city accumulation - something in the algorithm is making my government fall because I am winning too fast.

Venger

[Xentropy]

Originally posted by Venger
This is utterly incorrect. I have had my Democracy take a hit THREE times - the last time I said screw it and changed Democracy to Republics war weariness - it was the only way to not throw this game out the window.

What difficulty level do you play? The way I stated the game acts is not incorrect, it is exactly what happens in MY game on MY computer on regent level. My next game will be Monarch so maybe I'll be able to tell then what changes at higher difficulties.

I am kicking the AI's ass. I lose very few units (because the units and resources model breaks the AI) and am rolling them up. My government simply falls, mind you, I have 300 military units rolling overseas. I am convinced that it's due to my rate of city accumulation - something in the algorithm is making my government fall because I am winning too fast.

This doesn't make any sense either, since, to use the game I'm currently playing as an example as it is fresh in my mind, I just took over 23 German cities in 4 turns using approximately 120 units (after about 15 turns of lead time just getting my units OVER there; this was across the water). War weariness turned on when they declared war on me, got slowly worse as I attacked them a bit, taking out their front lines.

Then, unit transportation was done, the fight was to begin. First turn, I took 3 cities. War weariness dropped to almost nothing. My people were ecstatic. I almost thought they were getting a happiness BONUS, everyone went into WLTK. Second turn, 6 more cities. WLTK continued, started new in a couple of cities in fact. Then another 6 cities, then they were basically out of units and their remaining cities had little culture to slow me down so I split my calvary up further and took the other 8 the next turn. I lost maybe 4 or 5 units the whole time due to pretty stupid tactics by the AI. Since they were completely destroyed, that war ended, and the war weariness turned back off again.

In other cases I've had wars sit there for hundreds of years without me really wanting to fight it, and I still have yet to see a democracy fall. And if you're at war with two different sides, ending the war with one (by total destruction if they're stupid enough to not accept your envoy) will cut down your war weariness significantly, especially if the other side you're at war with has been sitting idle, only at war on paper, not in reality.

That's the extremes, and neither one has that effect in my games. I've also had games at every point in-between, taking one or two cities every 4 or 5 years, slowly advancing. I've had games where I've lost a TON of units, others where I've lost none. I just don't understand what causes a democracy to fall. Are you not keeping an eye on your cities enough to make sure they don't stay in civil disorder more than one turn in a row? Any time a city falls into disorder, I click the city center to reset the workers and I'm done with it. Just an FYI, I never use % luxuries (haven't moved that slider in any game yet), only entertainers. Could probably do with 10% some games.

[Venger]

Xen -

I'm just not seeing this - remember, you can't really judge the amount of war wearniess. Mind you, when the government falls, I have the highest approval rating in the game and no cities in revolt - in fact, alot of cities have WLTPD. But fall they do.

If I had a previous save I'd have sent it to you...

Venger

[Xentropy]

Originally posted by Venger
Xen -

I'm just not seeing this - remember, you can't really judge the amount of war wearniess. Mind you, when the government falls, I have the highest approval rating in the game and no cities in revolt - in fact, alot of cities have WLTPD. But fall they do.

If I had a previous save I'd have sent it to you...

Venger

>boggles< Wow, yeah, this all seems really weird to me. If this ever happens to you again, I'd love to see a save :>

And it *would* be nice if, say, the F1 advisor had a "War weariness" value listed somewhere. Just a single number quantifying the overall current weariness of your citizens. It'd be realistic; I mean, what democracy with civil disorder problems WOULDN'T be out polling the citizens about their opinions on the war?

I'd post this idea up front in a new thread to make sure Firaxis sees it, but I don't know that they'd respond either way ;>

[Colonel Kraken]

Originally posted by justjake73
Reminds me of a Star Trek Next Gen episode.

Alien race thinks humans are inferior. Won't talk, very arrogant. Finally Picard finds a part of the LOOOONNNNGG treaty that will benefit the Federation. The ball's in his court. The aliens hail the Enterprise:

Worf: Sir, the Sheliak are hailing us...
(beeping of hail notice is heard)
Picard walks over to the ship's dedication plaque.
(beep beep)
Riker: Captain?
Picard wipes dust off the plaque.
(beep beep)
Picard walks over to his chair
Picard: On screen.

Later:
Riker: "You enjoyed that."
Picard: "You're damned right."

YES! I remember that. Man, do I miss Next Gen . . . Oops, sorry, off topic.

Well, while I'm at it . . .

::Rodney Dangerfield voice::
I get no respect....no respect.....

That was funny, Vel.

Ok, I'm done.