My Conclusions about the Firaxis-Community relations

[Killerdaffy]

Originally posted by Ozymandous

If Firaxis didn't give a crap they wouldn't post at all. It would be easy for them to tell Dan to only visit certain, if any, fan sites and to never post on ANY sites except the official one. At least they respond when they can. Why don't you learn a lesson in humility and understand that you're not the ONLY person asking questions but one of hundreds or thousands.

I think this is part of the problem, as several other posters have already pointed out. While the number of members here at Apolyton has grown immensely over the last months, I still think that a place like civ3.com is more visible. So if there are OFFICIAL statements from one of the designers, programmers or customer support, why not put them there? It'd be easier to find for everybody (certainly easier than to read a couple of hundred new posts here and in other forums (civfanatics,...). This would furthermore defuse more of the questions about whether or not a post is official... It's all about efficiency and effectiveness.

It's funny how mistakes in one department of a company get attributed personally to people. Even though Jeff, Dan, Soren & Co actually do more of the hands-on work, they are held responsible for mistakes made by marketing or, even better, their publisher. Those were bad mistakes (I especially like the cease and desist order vs. the german translation project, the act of a true marketing genius or the decision to postpone the non-US release of the same version by two weeks... ) but still nobody should attribute that to anyone of the programmers who actually shows up here on the boards. If you want to make a point really badly but don't feel heard - spam the management. Most of the e-mail addresses have been here on the board, whether originally public or not (Ok, you probably won't get answers but that's to be expected ).

And I agree that some people think a little bit too much of themselves. Yes, you are a customer and a smart company will listen to its customers. But no, this does not mean that every post will be answered individually, even if it so demands in rather vocal terms.

Nuff said.

[Steve Clark]

Ozy, you are my hero. But unfortunately, your level-headed satire will go right over the heads of slef-centered, ego maniacs here. Additionally, just substitute yin in for Lib and you got the crux of the issue when the holy relic called the List wasn't the final design document for Civ3. (That, and the bitterness of him being fired from being the moderator here, but that's history.)

My little boy who is 4, loves fire trucks. The analogy I have tried to use about different color fire trucks was apt because some here acts like 4 year olds. Actually, there is nothing wrong with wanting a green fire truck with certain features. But to do it at the expense of those wanting different colors is not what civing should be about. Because of Civ's flexibility and customizability, we can have a red one or a green one or a purple one, depending on what we like. Each may not be perfect, but at least it's not a self-centered view in DEMANDING that all fire trucks should be green and if the developer does not make it all green (or with specific set of features), then they must be evil. And this extends to the stupid attitude that EVERYONE must like a green one. But if you look outside of the ego, there are quite of few civers enjoying playing with the truck, regardless of what color they got. For me personally, I'm patiently waiting for the ability to change the fire truck into a police car.

[Killerdaffy]

Originally posted by Steve Clark

My little boy who is 4, loves fire trucks. The analogy I have tried to use about different color fire trucks was apt because some here acts like 4 year olds. Actually, there is nothing wrong with wanting a green fire truck with certain features. But to do it at the expense of those wanting different colors is not what civing should be about. Because of Civ's flexibility and customizability, we can have a red one or a green one or a purple one, depending on what we like. Each may not be perfect, but at least it's not a self-centered view in DEMANDING that all fire trucks should be green and if the developer does not make it all green (or with specific set of features), then they must be evil. And this extends to the stupid attitude that EVERYONE must like a green one. But if you look outside of the ego, there are quite of few civers enjoying playing with the truck, regardless of what color they got. For me personally, I'm patiently waiting for the ability to change the fire truck into a police car.

Originally posted by Steve Clark
As frequently predicted, Firaxis spent way too much resources on graphics and artists and not enough on programmers and scenario designers.

I love how this analogy relates to your sig!

And think you are right with your post. Patience is a virtue rarely appreciated in a real-time society.

[Redstar]

"But what, exactly, are they working on? What have they even considered? Have they heard our requests?
...Has not anyone at Firaxis ever played into the modern age and thought to himself, 'Damnation! This is tedious!'?


We don't need to know exactly what they are working on. All we need to do is post the bugs and the issues we have with civ3.
We all know Firaxis reads this forum and has requested it. Its only natural to assume they will take all the reasonable expectations into consideration. They have as much said this.

As to what they do implement, i will give them the benefit of the doubt in what they choose to address.

I for one was very impressed when they fixed that shift-p issue so very fast. SO we should all note that they are fixing bugs.
Design complaints i would imagine are lower on their to do list.
(i am content to imagine this as i don't need to be told specifically.)

As far as the playing in the modern age...i know one person has for sure (this if i really believed they would not have play tested the basic mechanics before releasing).

Anyway my most basic point is...we all know Firaxis has seen our posts. Whether or not they choose to act on these is irrelevant for the moment. We can all just wait patiently now. I think its safe to say this board only rehashes the same concerns now.
Nothing new to see.

[Deornwulf]

I think you are missing the point of a forum. It is for the free expression of ideas, no matter how flawed they may appear to be. The posters may represent a very small minority and can do very little to affect the sales of the game. Firaxis is free to ignore the dissatisfied and move on to the next game. They don't owe anything to the "whiners" on this board.

That said, it would be a very poor business practice to do just as you suggest. For a company to be successful, it has to be concerned about the satisfaction of everyone of its customers. I can give you several examples and non-examples to support this viewpoint.

This forum is a very useful tool to Firaxis and any other game company wishing to develop a decent TBS game. Instead of mocking the opinions of others with clever little witticisms, try offering your own opinion about particular elements about the game.

[Steve Clark]

Killerdaffy, thank you for pointing that out. This was an opinion I had expressed for months prior to the release and it became obvious in actuality when the game was released. My bias is scenarios but unlike some here, I think many colors and features of fire trucks are all equally important. To throw a pre-schooler tantrum because you think 'your' way is the only way or 'your' questions are the more important, well, that's not what a forum should be about.

[Libertarian]

Four — four! (that's all your fingers, not including your thumb, on one hand) — threads have drawn unanimous — unanimous! (that's not one person dissenting) — support for stack movement.

Four threads. Unanimous. Not one person's question, but many peoples' question. And yet, no response. Enough was enough.

One thing's for sure, I never thought I'd see the day I was compared to Yin! Ain't life strange?

[Steve Clark]

Lib:
So? Do you think that perhaps,
1) they (Firaxis) are looking at the programmatic feasability of doing this (or are you one of those types that think all fixes involve one line of code)?
2) they made the change but found it causes other problems?
3) they made the change but would find it more feasible to bundle it in with other 'fixes'?

I am picking on you in a good natured way (but using you as an example), but why do you think it (whatever your 'needs' are) is so **** important? Are you so impatient that you must have your/other's way NOW?!? Even if you can't work around this like thousands of other civers are doing, why is it so important to play anyways? I have not played Civ3 in a while because I am waiting for the scenarios. You don't see me screaming at them for the scenarios, do you? They will get here when they get here, and if they don't, that's fine too, my life is not too shallow to think that my gaming desires are really that important. Patience IS a virtue.

[Malleus]

People who make ad hominum attacks are never in the possession of the right answer. Their arguments are never correct.

This is my criterion when I go on message boards and read about a new game. This also allows me to consider the source for postings (based on that user's prior posts) and skip those that are irrelevant.

Perhaps more folks should consider using this rule...especially in light of this extremely rude and fractious community.

K

[yin26]

gachnar: LOL! Fair enough, much appreciated. I look forward to more debates (hopefully productive) between us.

Xentropy: I guess you stopped reading the part of that thread where I said I was pulling people's chians? Don't misrepresent me. If you want to after me, get your facts straight. I will say, though, the past few weeks I have not given much effort to explaining myself fully. Why? Because all I've done on the forums the past SEVERAL months is explain myself. Excuse me if I get tired sometimes and simply jump to the conclusion without including the 500 word support.

Steve: Get over the List, buddy. Your pop-psychology theory was wrong 6 months ago and it's still wrong after you've posted it 1,000 times. So you can either keep on trolling about that and look like a complete ass, or you can actually read what I'm typing / listen to what I've told you my issues with Firaxis are.

[yin26]

Back on the topic of PR, Dan gave another good example of what I'm talking about: Why are a number of questions answered deep inside a thread most of the Civ world will never see?

And let me make this clear: I don't see this as a 'Dan Problem,' though I don't think he is the proper PR guy to begin with, for various reasons. That said, it's the Firaxis leadership that sets the tone and the methods for dealing with the public.

As far as I know, Dan and Jeff are here on their own time ... and that's part of the problem, a major part, actually.

[Steve Clark]

And good morning to you, my friend! (It is morning there, right?)

As far as I know, Dan and Jeff are here on their own time ... and that's part of the problem, a major part, actually.

You know, I thought Dan's job was webmaster at Firaxis and Jeff was the project leader/programmer. Silly of me to think that posting in a fan forum should be their job. You know what it comes down to? I don't think Firaxis should treat THIS community anymore importantly than any other community or any other non-forum customers actually. I know there are exceptions out there but coming here has and will always be a "damned if you do and damned if you don't" proposition for them. I would tend to go to the "don't" side because the alternative is just too much work and aggravation, as many posters (including me) here can attest.

I draw a parallel to my real job. I, too, am in software development. I communicate with my customers in a controlled environment. I ask leading questions at the appropriate time, I provide them with information when they become factual and I have colleagues (who are not the customers) whom I can bounce ideas off of. Anything else will take time and effort away from what's really important, getting my work done in the most cost effective manner.

[gaikokujin]

LOL! Ah, entertainment...well, time to pack up and go home now.

Originally posted by Ozymandous

Translation:

"Please, please, please answer my questions! I am all antsy with the buring desire and uncontrollable need to know everything even though you have already address me at least twice in this thread and said you have said all you could. Your attention alone isn't enough, you *must* also answer all my questions of I will lose hope and heart and be forced (even though I really do like to bash you. ) to bash you some more.

Please, please pay more attention to me so that I won't feel so alone in the world and my life will have meaning. I love you Dan, I really do. ""

[yin26]

Steve:

Yep. Saturday morning here.

Seems we agree. This is why I think you've either got to "Do the fansite thing" and invest lots and lots of time and be empowered by your boss to speak rather openly or let your main site do all the talking for you once you've done the proverbial rounds of the sites to see what the fans are rumbling about.

But catering to Poly in some backwater thread just isn't the way to go. And having (apparently) the company policy of 'If we're not sure, we'll be silent' isn't going to help things. It just fosters paranoia and resentment.

I have always felt that fan sites are best moderated by the fans themselves. What I mean is, if Firaxis would just give us more consistent and clear messages, we would actually police the trouble makers ourselves. But in the light of confusing or simply missing PR efforts, it's pretty hard to put out the flames at times.

A cynical person would say that none of this has affected Civ3 sales at all so it makes zero difference. If true, I suppose I would agree. But I feel that eventually when bad feelings are left untreated it will begin to have some repercussions.

[Trifna]

Let me join the club of people tired of seeing some puting the same arguments constantly, again, and again, and again, and aigain.... and again, and again, and... agaaaain... and agaiinnn.............

[Kolyana]

[shields up]
I'd like to see stack movement.

We should have stack movement.

Stack movement makes sense.

Stack movement is essential.
[/shields down]

[scientist]

Hmmm...

It's been a while since I have piped in on the whole "Firaxis-Infoogrames-stein are arseholes" issue, as I got sick of Firaxis' and Infogrames dismissive attitude.

I have pretty much given up hope. I think that Civ III isn't such bad game, even a very good one, but that Firaxis' and Infogrames community relations and support stink. My first, rather nasty note of this was the whole Limited Edition fiasco.

[dissent]

but that Firaxis' and Infogrames community relations and support stink.

Infogrames has no community relations that I've noticed so far. Even the German thing was handled very poorly and undiplomatically. Did you read any of the Infogrames statements about it? Who do they think we are anyway?

My opinion of Firaxis' community support recently changed from Annoyed to Cautious, but they still need a lot of work in order to reach Polite.

[Libertarian]

Originally posted by Steve Clark
Lib:
So? Do you think that perhaps,
1) they (Firaxis) are looking at the programmatic feasability of doing this (or are you one of those types that think all fixes involve one line of code)?

Had you been reading a week ago, you would have seen me pleading that exact case. No. In fact, I'm one of those types who thinks you cannot know how many lines of code a fix requires until you've thoroughly spec'd it out.

2) they made the change but found it causes other problems?

Possibly. Were that the case, why not answer the deluge of requests with a simple announcment?

3) they made the change but would find it more feasible to bundle it in with other 'fixes'?

Op. cit.

I am picking on you in a good natured way (but using you as an example), but why do you think it (whatever your 'needs' are) is so **** important? Are you so impatient that you must have your/other's way NOW?!?

As I've explained in some detail, this particular request has had practically unanimous support in all the threads where it has been raised.

How about you? Maybe we can point finally to a dissenter. Do you believe that group movement would be a bad feature?

Even if you can't work around this like thousands of other civers are doing, why is it so important to play anyways? I have not played Civ3 in a while because I am waiting for the scenarios. You don't see me screaming at them for the scenarios, do you?

[...shrug...] Frankly, I'm not watching you.

They will get here when they get here, and if they don't, that's fine too, my life is not too shallow to think that my gaming desires are really that important. Patience IS a virtue.

Then be patient with us.

[CharlesUFarley]

Perhaps Firaxis should realize this, in which case I say: "Please Please Please Tell Apolyton Nothing!" because people here simply cannot handle pre-release information.

"people cannot handle pre-release information"

Gachnar:
Whats this...we can buy the products from Firaxis, but we have no right to the information behind the products we purchase? Give your head a good shake buddy, we're customers we deserve any information they posses. Especially if were not happy with the game, we reserved that right when we bought the game! And as for "handling the information" thats up to the individual, not the masses, or the game company. If they don't have an answer, they can at least "respond saying: we dont know". rather than ignore everyone!

And whats this crap about "everyone hates yin" nobody hates yin, asside from a few bored asswipes who come in here and argue for the sake of "arguing". Geez, yin buys a copy of Civ3, plays it, decides he doesn't like it, he then contacts Firaxis hoping to ask why it turned out the way it did...and they "ignore" him, which isn't surprising, they did the same to me. And apon realizing he can't talk to Firaxis he comes into the forums to "vent" his disapointments, and then people like you come along and shoot him down for being upset, whattya do when your kid wets his/her pants, beat em? Get with it, people not only have a right to information, but they also have the right to "vent". And if you get in the way of that, your just causing sh_t. Back off.


Charles.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by XPav

What's even funnier is that there's probably less than 30 people on these forums all over the world telling this company of 30 people that they're a bunch of corporate scum.

Not true, I believe they are being called "ignorant".

I've seen this "community relations" stuff from the inside -- by being on the team that did Jane's Longbow 2.

So that would make you what.. an expert?

Quite frankly, if I was a game developer in charge of a game, I'd say "**** the community, I've got work to do." For every person on a forum that understands reason, there's another one that uses the anonyminity of the Internet to hide behind and slag off on their current target.

"**** the community" where did you get your business policy from, the bathroom stall of your favorite pub? The community, incase you didn't know, is where the ****** profit comes from!

Just ignore all the flames by detractors , ignore all the bootlicking by fans, and just make the game.

So in other words, it doesnt matter what the consumers think, just sell the damn thing. Your incredible pal.

[Xentropy]

Originally posted by yin26
Xentropy: I guess you stopped reading the part of that thread where I said I was pulling people's chians? Don't misrepresent me. If you want to after me, get your facts straight. I will say, though, the past few weeks I have not given much effort to explaining myself fully. Why? Because all I've done on the forums the past SEVERAL months is explain myself. Excuse me if I get tired sometimes and simply jump to the conclusion without including the 500 word support.

Actually, I *did* stop reading that thread before any of that "pulling chains" stuff came up. I just took a gander over there and saw your retractions later in the thread. I initially gave up on that thread after your "incredible debate response" of basically "Nuh uh! It's a fact! Deal with it!"

Even so, given the posts I've read from you, your attempt at claiming to have been joking around appears insincere. Looks more like you realized you made a mistake and were trying to cover your tracks. Since that is the ONLY debate I've ever really tried to have with you, and since I'm fairly new to this forum, I have NEVER seen you use good debate form.

Some people in this thread have called you a "fellow fan, worth listening to." As someone who has only read your posts from this calendar month, I don't think you're a fan at all, and certainly not worth listening to.

Chalk it up to a bad first impression. It may be an incorrect one, but as it stands now, in my mind, Venger is worthy of the readers' time, but you are not.

That can change, but it'd require you continue to put the time into your arguments that you claim you used to. In my opinion, if you are tired of retyping the argument, mark it as said and let it be. To continue to post it but NOT back it up makes you look far worse than you obviously intend to look. (i.e. Either your opinion is important enough to post with backup, or it's not important enough to post. Posting the opinion WITHOUT support is a waste of everyone's time.) It's like doing a half-assed job putting your information on the table, something you continually blame Firaxis for doing even as you do so yourself.

I am *not* attempting to personally attack you, just letting you know what impression you're giving now. You've let yourself slip, as you yourself admitted, and this is the first impression you give anyone who did not see the alleged "old you". Fair warning and all. "You never get a second chance to make a first impression," but I have an open enough mind to change my opinion of you given a glimmer of change in your presentation.

[Xentropy]

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by gachnar
Hey yin26. Here's one of those guys I was talking about:

Sorry. You lost me around "We expected a sequel to civ 2 that is not a maybe or a yes situation." I cant even tell what you just said. I'm positive the grammar is poor. But either way, Civ 3 is obviously not based on CTP2.

UM... actually they are VERY similar, and anyone who's "actually" played CTP2 would know. Believe me, I've played it, and they are very very similar. If you can't see the simularities, better look closer. I know one thing, Civ3 shouldn't look anything like CTP2. And the simularities alone are scary.

Really. You're not perhaps exaggerating a bit, are you? Civ I had more bugs than this. And you are going to wage a campaign to tell the mags to print the truth about Civ3:

News Flash: Desert Dog Doesn't Like Civ 3!
"...(Firaxis) did not even finish the game from I am hearing from my sources" says terribly confusing source.

Yeah. I bet you are very powerful.

At least he isn't affraid of voicing his opinion or standing up for what he believes in, regardless of his grammar. The fact is, he has a valid point, Civ3 IS a disapointment to the community. Want a list of problems, give me an email you dont mind endorsing and you'll get it. I'll even include specifics, like the names and origin's of the fans who are displeased.

In your opinion it was worse. What? You relied on IFE? You liked having free bomber runs at cities that couldn't defend themselves? Or do you hate all the editor changes? In my opinion its much better. Seems like you shouldn't state your opinions as fact. I can see how some people were annoyed by the patch, but most people like the game more with the patch.

And who would these sources be? Your gamer friend?

I won't go as far as to say it's a bad game. But the reviews are greatly exagerated, and when I read them, it makes me sick. I've played Civ1 and Civ2 for years, and Civ3 was supposed to be Civ2 and more! But clearly, it lacks any decent editor, and without the patch the gameplay was full of bugs. Are you going to argue facts?

Is this the same source you claimed above? So this source tells you that Activision wrote Civ3 for Firaxis.

Interesting.

Or maybe the aliens wrote it....

And you call that maturity? It would seem that your whole objective in here is to make people feel like sh_t for having feelings and an opinion. Or my earlier assumptions of you are correct, your just trying to cause sh_t. Either way, move along, your only causing waves, and discouraging people from "venting".

You go do that. And when you are done, post a thread here telling us how accurate your information is. And your source. And a few URLs of reviewers who have been "enlightened" by your incredibly elegant, logical, and factual views.

First of all, I've seen these "reviewers" and I've been reading thier crap since the Civ3 release date. And all I see is a bunch of webmasters sucking up to promote sales. Hmm, lets think about this for a moment, notice how these "reviewers" only seem to post "good reviews" ? I wonder why that is. I'll tell you why, because they can't post both sides of the poll, otherwise Firaxis will sue the pants off them for loss of game sales. Think about it buddy.

Whaa. By "fix" you mean: "Make it exactly the way I want it." And can I add that the smilies make your argument so much clearer?

Uh.. no. Actually what he means is (I can't beleive I have to explain this to you) fans have been communicating with Firaxis for the last 5 years on how to improve Civ2 and they were ignored. It has NOTHING to do with selfish "I want the game my way" crap. It has everything to do with a concept known as "consumer demand" are you aware of that concept? If Firaxis used all the ideas and made something out of it, wouldn't the game be even better?

Want to hear something completely incomprehensible: I like the game. Its fun. Want to hear something even more unbelievable: Most people who bought it think the same way.

Now thats bull. Your basing your information on the "reviewers" and the mindless game-rats who simply blow their money on any old game, play it, and then watch it collect dust on their shelves. Where as the fans who've been dedicated to the "Civilization" concept from the beginning, are upset with its future. In my opinion if someone's complaining about something, that means they "care" about it enough to journey there. Think about it!

But Firaxis should ignore them. Who cares about their opinion. You're the important one here. You're the one who's going to educate all the "print mags".

Firaxis can't make everyone happy. You've made it clear that you shold probably be on that "Impossible to Appease" list.

First off, he didn't say Firaxis should ignore anyone, your putting words in his mouth. And Second, anyone who "purchases" a copy of Civ3 has the right to "*****" about it. And finally a game company should take the media seriously, because each little person who "complains" is a stain on their reputation. And nothing in life is impossible, only improbable. How will we ever know unless we really try. Firaxis is an incredible team of game creators, they have no excuse.

(yin26: Can we at least agree that this guy is doing absolutely nothing to improve anything on this board? These are the people I'm tired of seeing posts from.)

He's contributing his opinion, and he's entitled too it, no one's forcing your face up against the monitor and making you read it. You don't like what people have to say, turn your head. I do agree that he is a little too harsh in expressing his opinion, but do you think your going to stop him with a lowly "post" ? People will say what they want to say, when they want to say it. Thats the perpose for this forum, to discuss matters. Even if they are negative ones.

Charles.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by gachnar


In my job, I would tell the person to talk to my supervisor. I dont have the authority to release that kind of information. I can tell people about what the current situation is, but not what it will be. There are several ways of handling a situation. Just because you pick a different way than Firaxis doesn't mean they are wrong. Ignoring that, I usually like a bit more respect from customers than you have shown toward Firaxis.

Both points are good, but I dont agree with the "customers owe you respect" concept. Because in the REAL world, customers do what they please. Any supervisor will tell you, that no matter how they treat you at work, you will respect them, because you need their money. And they wont purchase if they are told off, or (in this case) ignored. And Firaxis is the "retail" and the fans are the "customers" get it now? And in your mind we "owe" Firaxis respect, but in reality they'll get respect when they comply with consumer needs.

Charles.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Ozymandous

Listen, here is how the typical game company works...

1. Games comes out.
2. Company finds the bugs and releases a patch (or two or three or four) to fix the fatal bugs and the problems that totally unbalance the game.
3. Company *might* release more patches that add additional features to the game or might wait to add these issues to an expansion pack if the game sold well.
4. Company moves on to the next game.

That's it. Game companies don't have an obligation to listen to fans for anytihng other than fatal errors and potentially HUGE game unbalancing problems. The game doesn't have to be perfectly balanced just balanced to the point the COMPANY wants it to be. Sure a totally balanced game will attract more people but look at the sales of Diablo2 and you'll easily see a game that can be grossly unbalanced and still sell very well.

Oh thats pathetic. I've never heard such garbage in my life. I'm sorry but you need a reality check! In the REAL world, companies all over the world have a solid obligation to their clients, fans and consumers. "Game companies dont have to listen to fans" you must be floating beside yourself to say something like that. Sure a game company has standards, but they can and will bend those standards to meet the needs of the consumers. If Firaxis or any company ignored its fans, they wouldn't profit from the product in question. IN OTHER WORDS... they have to give the fans what they want so they can profit from the fans! Snap out of it!

I think the majority of the people on Apolyton need to take a step back and learn to accept the fact that you WILL NOT be told everything that is going on and you WILL NOT get everything your way, how you want it, etc. It's that simple. You can complain and moan about how you're not being told every single decision that Firaxis makes but do you know what you'll prove? That you're impatient and immature and can't handle waiting.

How damn hard is it to take 100 questions and answer them all at once in one single post? It's not like they speak a different language and have no idea what were asking. They're more familiar with their own product then we are. They should be able to give us the information we desire. We deserve it, were the customers.. we purchased the product!

The amusing thing is that I see a company like Firaxis, who has responded as well as can be expected with as many details as they can, be continually bashed and flamed here on the board, yet a company like Blizzard, who doesn't tell ANYONE what they will or will not do in a patch, regardless of how it may break the game, be held up for adoration.

First of all, "Blizzard" is no comparison, they are two different game genres. And in my personal opinion "Blizzard" sucks. And Second, Firaxis has vague responses, and half the time they don't answer the questions at all. You have to communicate clearly with your customers or you won't have any!

What's the difference? Is it that the people here at Apolyton *expect*, no, *DEMAND* more than the 10,20 or 50+ hours they have had fun with the game, all for their measly $50? I think so.

Your a real peace of work, measly $50 ? For some people thats alot of money. And anything I spend money on, gives me the right to make demands! And that goes for everyone.

Tell you what people, why don't you learn patience and tolerance and keep offering suggestions that Firaxis can use. You will get MUCH more help and cooperation this way.

What the hell do you think people have been doing for the last 5 years!!!!!!!!!!! Its passed that now, the suggestions were completely ignored, and any hope for what Civ3 was supposed to be has been completely defiled. Where have you been?

Oh, and for those who will call me a blind Firaxis "fanboy", well you're wrong. There are things I wish were in the game, but I am also content to wait and see what they do in the future.

Now, thats more like it. I didn't call you anything. But I'm annoyed that you can sit there and tell people how to "feel" about Firaxis, you dont have that right. Thats up to the individual. I too will wait to see what they come up with, simply because they are good at what they do. But, they do have something to prove now.. everyone is watching.

Charles.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Ozymandous


When the ego in reality or larger than the true importance of the poster, you get situations like this.

I've been on webboards for games for years, and usually the greater the ego the louder the clamour for attention and the more strident are the demands for "satisfaction".

I don't think that people are acting or behaving on ego. Think about this, you have thousands of displeased fans who dreamed of Civilization III being everything they emagined, and then WHAM! Civilization III isn't even HALF of what they expected. I think you'd be choked too. Now what your doing is bantering at people for expressing their feelings. Why don't you let them blow off steam, if Firaxis doesn't wanna be BASHED or FLAMED then they'll do something about it. They're a sturdy group of people, they wont be affected by "Internet Forums".

Charles.

[yin26]

Xentropy: I'm not here to win prizes. I support myself fully when I feel the need. When I don't, I don't. Most of the supposed problems a few people have with me comes with their not reading my posts correctly in the first place and jumping to conclusions.

If you are saying I need to spend countless hours correcting their bad reading skills, I used to do that but now have better ways to waste my time.

As for 'covering my tracks,' you clearly don't know anything about me yet. When I say something, I don't back pedal. Never have. I will apologize when I make mistakes, but I haven't needed to apologize lately. In that particular thread, I enjoyed pissing some people off who had been on me for weeks...and I only let the joke go for a bit of time.

I got a kick out of people earnestly debating if opinions were actually opinions. Gees, lighten up.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Xentropy
I find your comments ironic, because my main problem with yin is that he is *not* a worthy debate opponent. He utilizes slippery slope, circular logic, and thinks the opinions he posts are facts. He may be more intelligent than the average poster, but he chooses to specifically ignore his intelligence when it comes to certain things. He has to make sure, in his own head at least, that he is a winner, and so frequently types things that appear extremely stupid.

(e.g. He has stated, in no uncertain terms, that the sentence, "Civ3 is a dull game," is a fact instead of an opinion. Given many people on this forum disagree with that statement, it is clearly an opinion. But since it's HIS opinion, it's a "fact" in his world. This kind of thing doesn't scream intelligence, even if his general vocabulary and grammar show otherwise.)

Aren't you only now expressing your "opinion" of yin? I don't find Civilization III a dull game, yet. But without the "customizable scenarios" It will without a doubt become boring and lose its appeal. I personally (and many others agree) find yin's complaints very factual. His complaints of the game, are valid ones. He's not making up reasons to *****, the game really does have those problems, and disadvantages!

Venger, Libertarian, and other Firaxis detractors are a completely different story. While I don't agree with some of their comments, I do respect their comments, because they're focused on opinions and reasons, and realize those opinions are not facts. They are far more courteous to those who disagree with them, and therefore I am more courteous to them.

You're doing it again. These are NOT opinions. These are "design flaws" and "lack of features" that people are complaining about. When your friend's car breaks down, and he explains his car situation to you, do you turn to him and say "Its only your opinion that the car's broken down!" C'mon! These are facts.

yin could learn a few things from his allies. Unfortunately, he's too caught up in his own righteousness to admit he has any lessons left to learn at all.

The only thing that yin might be doing wrong, is repeating his complaints. But so far, it has nothing to do with righteousness or ego, it has everything to do with "game flaws". But if you feel powerful or even better than everyone by cutting someone down for expressing their opinion then by all means continue. What was it you said before, "a good debate opponent" ? Some people are in here to "vent" their issues, and here you are debating them for having those feelings, what gives?

Charles.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Ozymandous

And you can also bet that a lot of the "vets" hate that their tried and true strategies don't work, or hate the fact they now have to modify their playing style because the game is different enough from Civ and Civ2 to warrant it.

Does this mean the game is bad? No, I know quite a few "vet" players here who love it and also some of the best all-around power gamers who like it. COntrary to what may be believed I think the good opinions outweigh the negative opinions, but that's just me.

You have my thoughts, and yes you are a cynic.

You keep missing the point! No one is saying the game is bad, but the game is full of bugs, and the editor is crap. What? pretty graphics and neat little sounds? Is that doing it for you? The game has alot of areas where even the fans can see improvements, why can't a brilliant team of designers at least comply with half of the consumer demands? I'll tell you why, because there's people out there filling their heads that their job is done, and the game is great! And with that, the suggestion box will get ignored! See my point?

Charles.