3-D, Will it Ruin Civ3? - Page 2

June 14, 2000, 04:19

Urban Ranger, I've already explained how the engine works, I'm not gonna do it again, all I seem to be doing is repeating myself again and again. I'm not giving up, but I'm going to leave THIS community, because it just doesn't seem productive and positive enough.

I'll only come here for the info now.

Orange, not much makes me angry. I don't do anything crazy, but a lot of you people with your tiny brains or limited imaginations piss me off. I have no idea why I am trying to even bother explaining it to any of you. I can only hope that Firaxis, or ANY game designer (BHG seem to understand), makes a game as big and good as I have been arguing about.
[This message has been edited by L o k i (edited June 14, 2000).]

Grier · June 14, 2000, 07:08

I agree with Loki, I think that Civ3 should take a large leap and recreate an entire planet in 3D which you can zoom into as far as you want. But definatly not 3-D isometrics ala SMAC, Transport Tycoon and such.

However, I think that if you are going to do it then you better do it right and make sure that the UI isnt diminished. I dont believe that Firaxis will be able to pull it off and maybe should stick to what they can achieve.

Though Loki I share your dream.

Az · June 14, 2000, 18:46

quote:

Originally posted by L o k i on 06-14-2000 04:19 AM

but I'm going to leave THIS community
[This message has been edited by L o k i (edited June 14, 2000).]

uuuuu now that made me shake .....

btw all you other guys : you are completely right . civ isn't about fancy grafix . its about the... well I even cant explain it . that CIV feeling... it is so much fun . even when you lose. it's fun . just the proccess. that's all .

P.S. and what's wrong with chess ? 3 billion ppl ( who know the basic rules )around the world cant go wrong.

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Prepare to Land !

Hasdrubal · June 14, 2000, 19:01

Eat ****! Fifty billion flies can't be wrong!

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Ceterum censeo Romanem esse delendam.

Par4 · June 14, 2000, 21:50

I wouldn't mind a closer view, where you could see designs of cities maybe, like cities span out along rivers, the little cities that dot the land are concentrated near lakes and stuff. But have zoom levels too. Just an idea.

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I use this email
(stupid cant use hotmail)
gamma_par4@hotmail.com
Don't ask for golf tips
Your game will get worse
HappyLand
There is no spoon,
But there is a knife

UltraSonix · June 15, 2000, 01:08

quote:

Eat ****!

quote:

Why can't you dumbasses pick it out?

When I joined up I thought the faq or something said that there was an auto filter at this forum?

quote:

I'm not giving up, but I'm going to leave THIS community, because it just doesn't seem productive and positive enough.

Now all that's left is us people who wants to play civ for the gameplay as well, not purely graphics. After all, if you want eye candy - go to a pron site (or go play B&W on that p200 with 32mb RAM like you claimed you could)!

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards...
[This message has been edited by UltraSonix (edited June 15, 2000).]

June 15, 2000, 03:55

Okay, I swear it, this is the last time, I swear it.

I've only been saying this for the past what, MONTH? for the total reason for GAMEPLAY.

Haven't you played any games like Ground Control or Earth 2150, Ultra? I highly suggest you do, just so you can get a 'taste' of the 'gameplay'.

I can play Earth 2150, and say to myself, god damn I wish this game was civilization, I'd be having so much more to think about and do, realisticaly in a civilization fashion.

MidKnight Lament · June 15, 2000, 04:12

quote:

Originally posted by L o k i on 06-15-2000 03:55 AM
Okay, I swear it, this is the last time, I swear it.

Swear? No, I can't believe you'd be swearing, Loki.

- MKL

Deathwalker · June 15, 2000, 08:27

I think some type of 3-d land would help the game so long as it did not like SMAC, the screen was one color, over crowded and not enough color. But if done right could help the game

Hasdrubal · June 15, 2000, 14:46

quote:

Eat ****! Fifty billion flies can't be wrong!

Elvis Presley once released a greatest hits album, called 'Fifty million Elvis fans can't be wrong!'. Shortly after that, some punk band named their album 'Eat ****! Fifty billion flies can't be wrong!'. It's just a hilarious counter to the argument that something must necessarilly be true if only enough people think it is.

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Ceterum censeo Romanem esse delendam.

Theben · June 15, 2000, 19:23

Of all the threads I've ever read, on this forum, this is the only one I've seen that could use moderation. Too bad I'm not a moderator any more.

Loki, if you can't handle other people's opinions, perhaps leaving is a good idea. Whether or not you've described your ideas before, you aren't impressing anyone here now (other than giving them a bad impression of you).

I stand behind my previous reasons, but if you want others, how about this:

Any time Firaxis devotes to making a 3-d map is time taken from developing other parts of the game. Players do want good graphics, but not needless detail. The rest should go to developing a great AI and interesting new features.
Okay by you?

Par4 · June 15, 2000, 20:04

Moderating in the Civ3 general, why I've never heard of such a thing!

------------------
I use this email
(stupid cant use hotmail)
gamma_par4@hotmail.com
Don't ask for golf tips
Your game will get worse
HappyLand
There is no spoon,
But there is a knife

Urban Ranger · June 15, 2000, 21:19

Loki,

I don't get it. It seems to me that you aren't responding to others' sensible critiques. You are just repeating yourself over and over again. That don't work.

I know how the engine works. I know you can zoom into the map to look at the finer details. I looked at your URL. It's a fantastic piece of work.

So what?

Have you played Risk 2? During the battles you get to see litte soldiers shooting each other and falling down dead. It is all great fun for the first two or three times, then you'll want to find a way to turn that off.

If you can explain how a 3-D interface on the main screen adds to gameplay, be my guest.

[This message has been edited by Urban Ranger (edited June 15, 2000).]

Asher · June 16, 2000, 17:20

Loki: 3D is cool, I give you that. It's just that 3D is a pain in the ass if it's used in the wrong environment, which it seems to be the case recently. Your monitor displays in 2D, and attempts to emulate 3D.

I'm beta testing Dark Reign II right now, which is more like Starcraft than Civilization II, but it's still a strategy game in 3D. My initial response was: "Wow, this is so cool!". 360 degree camera movement in every direction, awesome graphics, everything...except for depth. It seems the designers spent so much time doing the 3D graphics that gameplay elements take a back seat. Frankly, I'm too bored of the game (after 1 week only!) now.

Not only did gameplay begin to lack, but the 3D became very annoying quite quickly. I try to move units to counter-attack, but the hills are blocking my view, so I must scroll 1/2 way up the screen to select those units, scroll back down, and then attack.

All I want is a game with excellent strategy and decent graphics. Gameplay over graphics. This has been the key factor in making Civilization I/II the best games ever, and I'd hate to see it go down the drain because a few people think 3D is cooler than it actually is.

And don't get me wrong, 3D is cool, but only when used right! Quake 3 wouldn't work in 2D. Civilization III would work in 2D.

What I'm looking for is not completely 3D graphics, but "2.5D" graphics, similar to what SMAC had. Rolling hills and the like, but nothing so extreme it blocks your view and hoggs the CPU.

And Loki, just a suggestion: If you wish for people to see your views, perhaps it would be better not to bite their head off for having a different opinion. Spazing out at people is definately not a good debate technique.

Malignantx · June 16, 2000, 17:38

Loki,
You are stuuuupeed, you are stuuuupeed, and dont ferget, you are stuuuupeed.

Theben · June 16, 2000, 21:12

MalignantX, that attitude isn't called for either.

UltraSonix · June 16, 2000, 21:51

I agree - I might not like Loki's point of view, but heh, his just as much a civ-er as the rest of us!

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards...

Az · June 17, 2000, 05:57

quote:

Originally posted by Hasdrubal on 06-15-2000 02:46 PM
Elvis Presley once released a greatest hits album, called 'Fifty million Elvis fans can't be wrong!'. Shortly after that, some punk band named their album 'Eat ****! Fifty billion flies can't be wrong!'. It's just a hilarious counter to the argument that something must necessarilly be true if only enough people think it is.

oh thnx Hasdrubal . I wanted to write a raging reply .... but then I saw this . I agree ! kinda stupid of me .

anyway Loki : grafics are good .but they are not the key feature of the game .

Right ?

P.S. Moderators wake up !

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Prepare to Land !

StormLord · June 17, 2000, 14:59

Hi,

3-D Graphics doesn't have to modify the gameplay of Civ3 at all, that is all just stuff like the politics, combat, cities etc.

The 3-D graphics is there to improve the effect/atmosphere of the game. Many people saw Civ1 as being played on a map instead of a world (if I understand there posts correctly), but when I play any of the Civ games (except SMAC) I am like really astonished at the feeling that I get of a real living world, and a 3-D Map will really improve that feeling.

Also, some great music wouldn't hurt either...

Bye

P.S. I just have to imitate SuperSonix and say:
No, in South Africa we don't really have rhinos/lions in the streets/backyards.

UltraSonix · June 17, 2000, 21:29

Agreed! Good music is important. So instead of having audio cd tracks as in Civ2, and having the same good music repeating until it became bad, the music should be in mp3 (I think this was already in SMAC or SMAX).

Oh yes - while I maintain that 3d graphics is uneccessary, good, clean, high quality 2d or semi-3d graphics would still be nice.

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards...

Par4 · June 18, 2000, 00:31

The one thing I hate about games, well some games, is bad music. Music is 1 thing no game no matter what graphics, genre, size needs is great music. Music is godly important. I love good music any game that is great but has bad music should be ashamed of itself. Maxis and westwood are 2 off the top of my head that make great music and I love that, although Tiberian sun sucked a....... It really sets the mood of the game and gets you into it.

GOOD MUSIC FOR GODS SAKE FIRAXIS GOOD, NO GREAT MUSIC DON'T LET ME DOWN!!!!!!!!

------------------
I use this email
(stupid cant use hotmail)
gamma_par4@hotmail.com
Don't ask for golf tips
Your game will get worse
HappyLand
There is no spoon,
But there is a knife

Grier · June 19, 2000, 04:37

There is two types of music for games:

Musak, the general kind of music that no-one really likes, but just ignores in he background.

Genre Music, the real chance for decent music, however everyones taste is different and in pleasing one person you upset another.

So the solution to the music problem is to provide some musak that people wont really notice and provide mp3 support so that everyone can listen to music that they like.

Steve Clark · June 19, 2000, 11:29

I have an idea, how about putting a CD of your choice in your CD player while you play Civ? No matter what music they put in the game, it will never be better than what I can choose from my collection. So why have them waste time and resources on this? Sheesh, next thing you'll say is that you want a CD full of video scenes.

jeibel · June 19, 2000, 18:52

This is my first post, so i don't mean to be taken too seriously...
Although 3D would make nice eye candy, please don't forget one of the things which made civ2 so great and made it last over the years: Customization (is that a word ?

) ! 3d makes editing exponentially harder... Just think of the lifespan of SMAC or CTP: how many scenario or MODpack do we have that make reinstalling the game worthy? Civ2 has masterpiece like Red Front, Spartacus or 2194 Days... The ability to customize is fundamental, since it let the game live on it's fan's support rather than the company's... Even CTP, which really had great customization premises, really missed the target...
Hi everyone !

[This message has been edited by jeibel (edited June 19, 2000).]

heardie · June 19, 2000, 19:51

What do you guys think of this http://www.kolumbus.fi/amjayee/openc...totype_0_1.zip
this is the prototype map for openciv3.

June 20, 2000, 07:55

What is openciv?

I like it, because its more random and not tiled, can you structure it though?

heardie · June 20, 2000, 17:46

quote:

Originally posted by I c e d a n on 06-20-2000 07:55 AM
What is openciv?

I like it, because its more random and not tiled, can you structure it though?

Openciv is a prooject to create our own civilization game, http://civ3.sourceforge.net is the official site. AS for can it be structured i'm not sure what you mean. AS the game is in its infancy, this iwll probably not be th map we use in the 'final' game

June 20, 2000, 18:39

How many people are working on the game? And what do they all specialise in?

Par4 · June 20, 2000, 18:44

I like that map, I like it a lot. It's clean, good looking, it looks 3d but from an isometric view. I'll have to look into openciv3 more this looks cool

------------------
I use this email
(stupid cant use hotmail)
gamma_par4@hotmail.com
Don't ask for golf tips
Your game will get worse
HappyLand
There is no spoon
-The Matrix
Let's kick it up a notch!!
-Emeril Lagasse
Fresh Soy makes Tofu so silky
-Ming Tsai

June 20, 2000, 18:48

I had a look through your page, I couldn't see some of the screen shots in the design section, can you email them to me please, if it's not too much trouble?

icedan@graphic-designer.com