Idea: Collective, Collaborative Mods

[Merp]

Hi all

Firstly, I'll just say I only got the game recently, know relatively little about modding, and generally stand in awe of some of the great Mods I see floating about. Thanks!

One problem with modding - and it seems exacerbated by the nature of Civ3 - is that it is very difficult for individuals to take full advantage of the hard work of the Modders. When I say 'take full advantage', I generally mean using more than one mod at a time. There are a few reasons:

1. It is very hard (or tedious) for a gamer to use multiple mods. It involves multiple downloads and the dreaded intergration. There are so many issues that can be fixed or improved - civilizations, balance, units, graphics, governments, wonders, improvements but any one mod author doesn't have the time to address them all.

2. Many mods are continually being developed as bugs are found and game balance problems are corrected. This means that a gamer needs to keep an eye on the threads of all the mods he is using.

3. Mods that are each worthwhile in their own right might contradict each other. This is especially apparent in terms of graphics mods not dealing with expansions in gameplay mods. eg. Icons showing unit details in the city screen are great but what if another mod changes those details? Or what if a new civilization's UU is not scaled for a certain balance mod?

4. The use of the one gameplay file (blc) and independent mods means there is a tendency in Modders to throw in extra tweaks. eg Israel civ comes with a corruption fix. a goverment mod redos a lot of gameplay and unit balance fixes, etc.

Obviously these factors affect mod designers too, since their mods effectively compete with other mods that were designed to tackle completely different things. How many threads, for how many mods, for how many topics has the same or similiar feedback been sought and given? How compatible are saved games and user designed scenarios to certain mods? By developing the mods diseparately the cost the community as a whole is huge.

The solution, in my mind, is to start collaborating more. We need standards - well known and accepted mods - to evolve so that new mods don't reinvent the wheel. The Apolyton Pack for CTP comes to mind as an example of what I propose for Civ3.

What I propose, or suggest, specifically is a set of intergrated mods released as a whole and tested together. It would be a run as a collaborative project that develops or maintains this collection.

Other components:

1. the project would have a manager - a well known and respected individual. The project manager would be responsible for maintaining the collection in a high quality, coherent and easy to install fashion and could delegate work to trusted volunteers as necessary.

2. there would be a centralised site or thread from which all project files are available both at a 'stable' release and beta release.

3. Individual mods that comprise the project would have a clear jurisdiction over those files or settings within the project. The authors of those mod coordinate new ideas and development with the community, project manager and other related mods and their authors.

3a. Sharing on a development level of works in progress, graphical templates and motifs.

3b. Mod authors are free to maintain working versions of their mods for independent use at their own discretion.

4. Regular community feedback and consultation and outsourcing. eg for civilopeadia entries.

5. Clear and thorough documentation

These are a suggestion only, of course.

People differ in what they like and do not like. At this early stage there are a lot of people who prefer not to change game mechanics but like graphics mods. People would disagree over what civilisations are worth adding and which ones aren't. But in my opinion there are many things we can agree on. Perhaps we could disallow controversial changes? For the player or modder that doesn't think the changes go far enough, they still have a base product that is that much closer to the ideal.

Think what kind of gaming experience we could build!

Such a solution would probably evolve over time anyway. But why not get a head start?

Sorry for my inability to use specific examples in this post. Perhaps I'm coming from way out of left field with this. Perhaps not. Regardless, I would like to thank all the Modders out there who work tireless and ingeniously to improve this game experience.

:egypt:

[Skanky Burns]

Well, check Vel's thread over in the general forum, where theres the beginnings of a community mod. I think the process is starting fairly well

One good thing about graphical mods is that the grahics are spread over many different files, whereas most other aspects of the game being edited reside in one major file. At least with graphics, many mods can be used at the same time, with almost no conflict.

But anyway, i support the community effort to mod the game the way *we* want to play it

[Merp]

hmm couldn't find that thread unfortunately

could you please post a link or provide more information? (Also, why would it be in the general forum out of curiousity)

[wisecat]

NIce idea, Merp, I am wholly behind you. But how do we agree on what would we like to see in the mod?

[Merp]

Well, the simple answer is that we stick with mods that most people like. For a start, at least, we would remain uncontroversial. There are a number of graphics mods that fall into this category. I have not seen anyone who doesn't prefer Icedan's terrain over the original, for example. This probably comprises about 4-6 mods in and of themselves.

Simple gameplay / balance mods (w/o new units, governments, etc) are slightly more difficult since there are a lot around and it is so easy for anyone to have a crack at it. Moreover, the game is young. Still I there are quite a few that seem quite good. Time will tell. We don't have to get THE BEST to start with, just one that people like. The beauty of these mods is that even if you can do better than what we provide you can still base it on own mod.

Oops gotta go.

[Merp]

...continued:

Unit balancing : Many mods rebalance the A/D/M and other combat stats of units in an effort to make them more realistic. Some scale the movements rates of ships and modern units up. I don't have a problem with this. I think most players don't have a problem with it either in principle. Of course the devil is in the detail

Then we move into the more 'creative' mods - those which encompass new governments, wonders, units, improvements and resources. Here we see the most diversion among players because the inclusion some means the exclusion of others. We take this side of the combined mod pack slowly I think, and see what individual mods are getting a lot of usage. Initially we would only tackle 1-2 governments, wonders, units and resources and see how it plays. Initially slow momentum in this area also allows us to avoid as much project based graphic design and simply invite in existing modpacks (modified to fit the project).

It would be important to stress to detractors that don't see why their GREAT IDEA isn't being incorporated that it may well be in the future.

The key ideas I'm trying to emphasise are that:

a) any combined modpack is better than none at all

b) a combined modpack that doesn't go far enough is a lot more useful than one that goes too far.

c) Its no big deal if we make mistakes. With lots of feedback we can make it really shine.

So in response to the question: "How do we choose what we would include?" I say it depends on what people want, and in any case we don't have to choose a definitive list, we start off with something and let it grow and develop. Trying to 'do it all' in the first modpack won't work.

I've thought of a possible name for the modpack:

Civ3 Intergrated Mod Experience (CIME). If this is lame please tell me. If you have any other suggestion, shoot.

I am toying with the idea of hacking out a mod management program in VB.

TODO:

1) Still need a project manager (in absence of any volunteers this is me I guess Please volunteer! )

2) We need to get together a list of mods that are safe to include at this stage (pending modmaker's permission, of course).

Modmakers: feel free to volunteer your mod. Bear in mind some mods may need to be modified, preferably by you, for intergration. Some mods may not be appropriate for initial release.

To everyone: If you disagree with anything I've said, or you have a general suggestion, or even if you have nothing to add but you support the idea, please show your support.

[Skanky Burns]

Sorry about taking a while to reply...

Vels thread can be found here.
Not sure why its in general, guess youll have to ask vel that one.

Mabye that will help this mod, or you could join forces...