Stop the Insanity

[rdomarat]

I'm sure similar posts go up all the time, but I feel like I should take a turn. I also imagine this will have no effect what so ever, but it feels nice to get it off my chest.

I've noticed a huge amount of negativity directed at the Firaxis employees recently on the forums. I haven't been around for long, but I'm curious what people are hoping to get out of a person attack? The fact that employees from Firaxis monitor and respond to postings in the forum is a huge boom to the community on this board. Think about the good things that come from this :

1) Common complaints on game play and bugs can be "unofficially" reported on the forum, and there's a good chance that it'll get back to Firaxis. This is definitely true of serious bugs, which no software vendor wants in their product (like the air superiority problem) and is also true of major game play issues that are reported by a large number of players (like the ability to stack units). There's no guarantee of your problems being looked at, but that's what official support is for.

2) Posts are often answered from Firaxis employees, who are in the know. IMHO, an answer from a developer of the product is a good thing.

3) It adds a huge amount of respect to the forums. When I first started reading these forums, my first reaction was that the board is just filled with a bunch of arrogant whiners who care more about the forums than they do the game (I stole that line from Jeff. What a great quote). About ten minutes in though, I noticed a message from Jeff that gave a clear and concise answer to the topic of the thread. I stuck around. If the forums hope to increase the number of posters and grow the forums into "the" civilization community, you need to be able to keep first time posters and lurkers coming back.

Having mentioned a few good things, there are negatives I see as well.

1) Not all posts are responded to by Firaxis employees. I see tons of posts in threads along the lines of "Why won't someone from Firaxis step in and tell us what's going on?". I think it's important to realize that the first point on the job list for the Firaxis employees is not "respond to posts on Apolyton and CivFanatics". It might be something like "develop turn-based civilization game".

2) The responses are often vague and didn't exactly answer my original question. I'm shocked from requests like "Why doesn't Firaxis just tell us exactly how the combat system works" or "Why doesn't Firaxis tell us exactly when a city defect?" Go cruise over to the McDonalds web site and let me know whether you can find the recipe for their "special sauce" that goes on Big Macs. I guarantee it's not there (BTW : I don't care what's in the special sauce, I'm just giving an example). I'm an employee of a software company that responds to posts about our product on a public forum as well. I've been told flat out that I'm not allowed to say anything forward leading about our product in a public forum or go into details about the internal working of our software product. You can't say things like "the next release will include blah-di-blah" or "index scans take place when the selectivity estimate on a predicate is above x%". Any company will always err on the side of not giving away more information than they have to if it means protecting their intellectual property or protecting themselves from law suits. That's just common sense.

I definitely think that the good massively outweigh the bad. If you agree, then treat everyone on the board, including the Firaxis guys, with respect. Without the input that we do get from Dan/Jeff/Soren on this board, I'd definitely not have stuck around, and I think that's true of a lot of people here. If you want to turn this forum into a place for immature whiners, then please continue to direct attacks on everyone on the forum making intelligent posts.

[rid102]

I'm curious what people are hoping to get out of a person attack?

No-one forces them to come here. Just in the same way, no-one forces you to come here either.

there's a good chance that it'll get back to Firaxis.

If you'd have bothered to read back through any of the threads here you would find that's not strictly true at all.

2) Posts are often answered from Firaxis employees, who are in the know. IMHO, an answer from a developer of the product is a good thing.

The biggest "Firaxis Mouth" on here seems to be Dan M. who is Firaxis' "Web Wizard".

Jeff Morris, in the small amount of time he has to spend on these boards, seems to opt to dodge the more meaty questions asked of him.

While I agree it is unfair of people to expect detailed, personally addressed answers to all their problems, there big issues which are discussed here that are all-but-ignored by Firaxis...

I think it's important to realize that the first point on the job list for the Firaxis employees is not "respond to posts on Apolyton and CivFanatics". It might be something like "develop turn-based civilization game".

If only, eh?

I think perhaps a more enlightened justification of your point here would be more along the lines of: if they can't do the second, then don't expect them to do the first.

Go cruise over to the McDonalds web site and let me know whether you can find the recipe for their "special sauce" that goes on Big Macs.

Go an play chess without knowing the rules...

Such churlish remarks...

I'm an employee of a software company that responds to posts about our product on a public forum as well

Great.

Then I'm sure you're well aware of how damaging it can be for a company to have its employees running around in public making asses out of themselves.

Personally, I'd be happier if the guys from Firaxis posted here less. Ironically, mainly for the reasons you've stipulated. There'd certainly be a lot less of the "Can some from Firaxis answer this" posts.

or go into details about the internal working of our software product.

There's a fine line in this case between knowing what the game rules are so you can actually play the damn thing effectively and giving away "internal workings" of the software.

Is telling someone how many bullets it takes to take down a bad guy in Quake going into internal details of how the software works?

If you want to turn this forum into a place for immature whiners

Thanks for your contribution.

[Daveraver]

Wow. That was about as thourough a schooling as I have ever seen.

A harsher tounge lashing than a gay porn reaming scene.

[vancomycin]

i kept wondering to myself why the developers of moo3 (also to be published by infogrames) can endear themselves more to the community than firaxis.

why doesn't firaxis just tell everyone the straight facts about the questions people ask?

how does posting facts increase unwarranted expectations about future development of the game? (as implied by Dan)

[Havak]

Actually by not quoting the full sentence you made it sound better than it was.

then please continue to direct attacks on everyone on the forum making intelligent posts.

Which basically implies that only posts supporting the game design and/or from Firaxis are intelligent??

That ridiculous implication, coupled with the judgmental label of "immature whiners" totally undermines any valid point you may have been trying to make.

You do see the irony in a post that effectively says "stop the personal attacks you immature whiners"?

I hope you do anyway

[rid102]

why doesn't firaxis just tell everyone the straight facts about the questions people ask?

Ah ah! I can answer that, using the great Oracle-like knowledge of our resident genius rdomarat, the answer is...

Go cruise over to the McDonalds web site and let me know whether you can find the recipe for their "special sauce" that goes on Big Macs.

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

Originally posted by vancomycin
i kept wondering to myself why the developers of moo3 (also to be published by infogrames) can endear themselves more to the community than firaxis.

The answer to this is pretty obvious. The same thing happened before Black & White shipped. IIRC, there were a lot of people complaining that we should be more like Lionhead and that B&W was going to be a sterling example of how an excellent strategy game should be made. After that it was the same thing with Europa Universalis. Then it was Empire Earth, and EU II.

Of course, the irony of all of this is that if you go to the forums for any one of those games you'll find a lot of people screaming about how that game is the worst, buggiest, most awful game to ever stain the planet and that the developers should be drawn & quartered.

Now, I'm not making any kind of judgment about any of those games or the developers who made them, but it's pretty clear that in each case, these games were held up as examples of how things should be done, yet on forums devoted to these games there were a very vocal group of people saying just the opposite.

In other words, the grass always seems greener.

Originally posted by vancomycin
how does posting facts increase unwarranted expectations about future development of the game? (as implied by Dan)

Once again I'm misrepresented. I said that speculating about features that may or may not make it into a game or patch does nothing but raise expectations.

Read any of my posts and you'll see that I have no problems discussing facts as long as I know the answer and know it's accurate.

Originally posted by rid102
Personally, I'd be happier if the guys from Firaxis posted here less.

Shockingly, I agree.

On that note, may everyone here have a lovely, peaceful, and relaxing holiday.

Dan

[Th0mas]

Personally, I'd be happier if the guys from Firaxis posted here less.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
..Shockingly, I agree

SHAME on you rid102..

[CB2034]

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS


On that note, may everyone here have a lovely, peaceful, and relaxing holiday.

Dan

Dan... thanks for keeping us up to speed on as much as you can and Merry Christmas and a happy new year to you as well.

[Jahi]

bummer, i always thought the feedback was great from firaxis on this board. to bad they didn't spend more time soothing peoples egos.. (the only way to make people happy) because there is no way to make a game that will be 'perfect' for even half the people here as we all have varying opinions as to what makes Civ great (or not for some people). i personally am annoyed that an ironclad can take out a battleship but i'm still grateful that Dan and Co. take the time to read our posts (even if nothing is ever done about it).

[vancomycin]

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS


The answer to this is pretty obvious. The same thing happened before Black & White shipped. IIRC, there were a lot of people complaining that we should be more like Lionhead and that B&W was going to be a sterling example of how an excellent strategy game should be made. After that it was the same thing with Europa Universalis. Then it was Empire Earth, and EU II.

Of course, the irony of all of this is that if you go to the forums for any one of those games you'll find a lot of people screaming about how that game is the worst, buggiest, most awful game to ever stain the planet and that the developers should be drawn & quartered.

Now, I'm not making any kind of judgment about any of those games or the developers who made them, but it's pretty clear that in each case, these games were held up as examples of how things should be done, yet on forums devoted to these games there were a very vocal group of people saying just the opposite.

In other words, the grass always seems greener.

i was just wondering, no offence or anything but i felt that quite a few people hate you guys...i'm just a observer

Once again I'm misrepresented. I said that speculating about features that may or may not make it into a game or patch does nothing but raise expectations.

Read any of my posts and you'll see that I have no problems discussing facts as long as I know the answer and know it's accurate.

sorry, i misrepresented your words. but all i hope for are some concrete indications of how things are going to shape up.

Shockingly, I agree.

On that note, may everyone here have a lovely, peaceful, and relaxing holiday.

Dan

same to you

[XPav]

Originally posted by Jahi
o bad they didn't spend more time soothing peoples egos..

They're game designers, not PR folks. Their job is to make games. If some people's egos can't handle someone saying "NO we won't do that" or "MAYBE we'll do that" (but end up doing it), or even being told nothing, then that's their problem, not Firaxis'.

[Robert Plomp]

wise words Dan !

have a great holiday !

[Steve Clark]

Xpav, not According to Yin

Originally posted by yin26
As far as I know, Dan and Jeff are here on their own time ... and that's part of the problem, a major part, actually.

I fully believe, as experienced in many other gaming forums in the past 6 years, that even if Firaxis were to respond to each and every post, the amount of criticisms would not be any less. It would just take different forms. Instead of being hyper-critical of not what was being said, folks would be hyper-critical of what was being said (and you would still have folks like me being hyper-critical of those being hyper-critical ).

I think it does come down to ego...thinking that they have the ear of the developer to force their views upon them. Not that their views are wrong, but they are just one of very many, and one that directly contradicts other views.

[Libertarian]

Churlish. What a wonderful word!

[yin26]

You already answered why it's personal:

my first reaction was that the board is just filled with a bunch of arrogant whiners who care more about the forums than they do the game (I stole that line from Jeff. What a great quote).

When you go on public record as both Dan and Jeff has as saying that forums are just full of a bunch of whiners, you set a horrible tone from the very outset. Let me ask you this: Why are some forums (look at Europa Universalis and Space Empires 4) just packed with positive posts? Is it because the games are perfect? Not by a longshot. But in both cases, the developers have sent a clear, loud and consistent message that its fans are to be listened to and made happy. And when issues come up that seem to conflict with that message, efforts are made to explain things clearly. In fact, both EU and SE4 recently had new releases with EU2 and SE4 Gold, neither of which really brough something totally new to the table ... but reps from the company were all over the place trying to explain the reasons behind charging full price. This, mind you, after hundreds of posts and even personal e-mails to give people answers to and get support behind the game. At which point, it becomes VERY hard for bad press to take over a forum because the fans police it themselves.

And need I talk about Quick Silver?

The fact of the matter is that Dan and Jeff bring their own personal disdain for the whining here that THEY THEMSELVES have helped create with the very quote you find so cute. Of course, Dan and Jeff are just part of a much bigger ignorance that goes to the very top of the chain.

I'd be surprised if Sid even uses the Internet much. Honestly. He has seemingly ZERO awareness of how important the Internet is now to both the game itself and its power to build up or destroy your creation though digital word of mouth.

Simply put: Firaxis thinks it can coast on Sid's name alone ... and forums like this should be happy for any scrap (misleading or malicious though it may be) we get.

Sorry guys, wake up. Sid's name and this 'we are lost in a sea of whiners who will never be happy' pathetic excuse for incompetence are, my friends, the signs of your own longoverdue demise as a respectable company. Good riddance.

Grass is always greener? I suppose when you compared it to the garbage heap called Firaxis PR.

[N. Machiavelli]

Well said Yin.

[Comrade Tribune]

Well, OK, let´s compare some relatively recent strategy games:

Europa Universalis: Somewhat buggy, AI not always up to it, but highly innovative, extremely complex, good looking, and quite obviously a labour of love. As far as I know, the designers also don´t offend the people on the forums.

Reach for the stars: Very conservative/simplistic, interface not perfect, but very polished, good AI, well balanced, all fits logically together, near bug-free, obviously very well tested, ...

CivIII: Simplistic, buggy, clownish, unbalanced, untested, clownish, extremely tedious endgame, did I mention clownish?, and, on top of all that, the worst PR team in the history of the internet ...

Does this lead us to some answers about the 'Grass always greener?' question?

[Capt Dizle]

The grass may not always be greener in the next yard but sometimes there is less manure lying about over there.

[Th0mas]

Originally posted by yin26
.... Of course, Dan and Jeff are just part of a much bigger ignorance that goes to the very top of the chain.

I'd be surprised if Sid even uses the Internet much....

Simply put: Firaxis thinks it can coast on Sid's name alone ... and forums like this should be happy for any scrap (misleading or malicious though it may be) we get.

Sorry guys, wake up. Sid's name and this 'we are lost in a sea of whiners who will never be happy' pathetic excuse for incompetence are, my friends, the signs of your own longoverdue demise as a respectable company. Good riddance.

Yin26, you have created a Self fulfilling prophesy....

You claim that the reason for all the personal flaming of FIRAXIS employee's is due to the a) faults with Civ III b) fanboys c) Firaxis not communicating enough d) Firaxis communicating too much e) Firaxis's poor PR f) Firaxis's poor Internet skills g)third world debt h) Bill Clinton I) Global warming J) Bread landing butter side down K)ants, Cows and ***** cats l)the Ebola Virus m) the year 2000 bug n) Korean Foreign policy o) Christmas p) the European Community q) dwarves r) Merlin and all his little wizards s) Sauron the dark lord t) the one ring u) MS Word 6.2 v) the Luna Cycle w) the voices in my head x) tom y) **** z) and Harry....

Never once have you sited yourself as a cause for a alot of this.

By far the majority of the 'very negative' threads are started by a very small number of individuals and the said same individuals fuel further antagonism within the Forums.

There is nothing wrong with criticism, here I am criticising the way you express your opinions. I don't believe you comments are either justified or accurate.

In your previous post you make alot of subjective comments and pass them off as facts -

Here are my equally uninformed opinions about Yin26:
You never bought the game, yet you played it for over a month. You slammed SMAC when it was released and you slam CIV III now that it has been released- so I think you have a major inferiority complex and the only way you feel important is by trying to put down others.

...Of course that could be total bollocks as I recognise I don't really know anything about you.

[The Viceroy]

Id always thought Firaxis were excellent at involving apolyton .. my God, we even made it into the game as a Greek City .. Thanks Firaxis

Hey .. were all individuals, theres no reason to be upset if some guy says he doesn't agree .. and there's no excuse to start slagging individuals off ..

If your not happy with CIV3 ... why not say what you feel ... thats what Apolytons here for ... also, if you do like it, say what you think .. why should it upset you if somebody didn't like it .. I hate marmite .... anybody offended ??

Chill out everybody .. let people say what they like ... but equally, let not let our love of the game, turn us into animals , and start attacking people personally ..

[yin26]

Thomas: Correction ... I have a *superiority* complex.

[Siberian Hamster]

.. I hate marmite .... anybody offended ??

How can you possibly justify such an assertion??? Everybody knows marmite is the food of the Gods (well, the crazy mixed-up ones who don't know where the manna is kept).

Anyway, it's way better than marmite II...............

[Olaf the Bold]

I find the Civ3 discussion boards a model of reasoned argument and civilized discussion compared to some I've seen (eg. Diablo II)

Oh, an I prefer Vegemite.

[Libertarian]

There's always Vitameatavegamin.

[Th0mas]

Originally posted by The Viceroy
.. I hate marmite ....

Well that's it .... you have now totally destroyed any credibility you once had.

....go on, p*ss off and join those vegemite weirdos'

[rid102]

SHAME on you rid102..

Eh?

[Antonin]

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune
CivIII: Simplistic, buggy, clownish, unbalanced, untested, clownish, extremely tedious endgame, did I mention clownish?, and, on top of all that, the worst PR team in the history of the internet ...

Maybe you've just outgrown the TBS genre, friend. I have found Civ 3 to be exactly the opposite of what you describe.

It's complex....

No bugs that I've encountered....

Very well balanced (sometime I win, sometimes I lose)...

Exciting until the end...

In the final analysis, though, it's just a game. Some of you people are getting far too emotional about this. It's only a game.