Confused about people quiting Civ3

[Brakner]

Libertarian i didnt even notice those feature were missing nor do i care if they put them in or not. So what it looks like is features that YOU wanted and not BUGS

[felder]

Originally posted by Brakner
Libertarian i didnt even notice those feature were missing nor do i care if they put them in or not. So what it looks like is features that YOU wanted and not BUGS

Oh man....this is way too easy. I'd respond to this drivel, but I'd hate to ruin Libertarian's satisfaction. Man oh man oh man...

[rah]

Ralf,
1. Some people don't include saved games when they brag. So you may not know what rules set was used. But I love your idea of it listing the exceptions.

2. In MP, I'm not as concerned with different rules (since all are playing the same) AS LONG AS IT"S COMMUNICATED with all the players. We had a big discussion when one host was tweaking the happiness formulae and didn't bother to tell the other players playing. That's cheating, plain and simple.

The only other problem with MP is, we spent almost 6 months agreeing to settings and non-allowed/allowed cheats that evolved into "RAH" rules. (no comment, they named it after me just to annoy me, and it worked ) There are about 30 players that have used them and will know what you're talking about. It makes it much easier to start a game quickly. It's hard enough getting people to show up on time, then have to spend an hour argueing the settings and rules.

The more options they give us, the harder I see it be to get people to agree. (not sure if good or bad yet since eventually some concensus will occur.)

RAH

[Ralf]

Originally posted by rah
We had a big discussion when one host was tweaking the happiness formulae and didn't bother to tell the other players playing. That's cheating, plain and simple.

I agree to that. But, what can one do about those hopeless maggots?

[Brakner]

Felder: It wasnt really directed at Libertarian but at the people i read all over this forum that have listed many many things exactly like his and called them bugs or things the game should do. Everyone is entitled to there own opinion and i'm not saying he or they are are wrong its just alot of people dont look at the good things ever. If something has 90 out of 100 good things going for it all they can see is the 10 bad things. Sorry if it seemed like a flame but reading all this negative stuff rubs off on you.

[rah]

Originally posted by Ralf


I agree to that. But, what can one do about those hopeless maggots?

Identify and ostracize.

But my point was, There will probably be quite a few options for game setups to discuss. If you include mods, the number of combinations will be so high that agreement will be almost impossible.

[Libertarian]

Originally posted by Brakner
Libertarian i didnt even notice those feature were missing nor do i care if they put them in or not. So what it looks like is features that YOU wanted and not BUGS

Didn't say they were bugs.

They are items that hinder gameplay. And they are items that cannot be fixed with the editor, contrary to the doltish claims that the editor is a panacea.

[Deornwulf]

Whatever happened to the age old maxim "The Customer is always right?" Everytime any of you argue with someone's negative appraisal of the game, you are ignoring the fact that since that individual is the consumer, the individual has the right to complain if he or she feels the goods purchased are faulty. Just because the product is a computer game does not exempt it from the principles of quality control. Good sales practices are based on individual relationships with each and every customer, not just the satisfied ones. Businesses that fail to recognize their critics are often the ones that go out of business.

Deornwulf - The English Teacher (who was a business major)

[Skanky Burns]

One thing about trying to please the customer: Each customer has a certain way they want the game to behave like, many with conflicting views. By trying to please everyone, Firaxis would please no-one. The best they can do is try to please the most people - not the loudest.

However, on certain issues that have unanimous support from the community (stack movement being a good example), Firaxis should (and does) take the customers feed-back into account.

[Libertarian]

Huh?

One —1! — Firaxis employee has begrudgingly acknowledged the deluge of requests for group movement. And within that acknowledgment was a tacit "it's not my job, ask Jeff" quip. This you call taking our feedback into account?

[Th0mas]

Originally posted by Libertarian
Huh?

One —1! — Firaxis employee has begrudgingly acknowledged the deluge of requests for group movement. And within that acknowledgment was a tacit "it's not my job, ask Jeff" quip. This you call taking our feedback into account?

sheesh Lib

With your attitude I'm surprised any Firaxis guys respond

oh and BTW - I believe Jeff has replied to one of the Stacking threads and stated that they are aware of the issue and will get back when they have more confirmed information (or something like that) WHICH IS A TOTALLY REASONABLE RESPONSE.

[Geez]

I think that folks are missing the point all of us "whiners" are trying to get across. Most, if not all of us LOVED Civ2. I think it is silly to say that we were expecting the same game in Civ3. However, I am pretty sure that we WERE expecting an EVOLUTION of the game. Not a watered-down game for the masses. Sure, I can use the editor to "suit" my needs. But the bottom line for me is that it then renders the game "non-ubiquitous", meaning how can you relate to others when they are probably not playing the same game as you are. That is why we want it up to snuff right out of the box. Sure, it will be better once someone realeases a downloadable mod that many of us "whiners" can live with. Then we will be playing the same game. This game is definitely much more like the first Call to Power than it is like Civ2. That, IMO, is not a step forward - or even sideways.

Cripes, is IMPROVEMENT too much to ask??? Or REALISM??? Expressing $49.99 frustrations and shattered optimism is NOT whining.

I must be in the Brian camp...

[Ralf]

Originally posted by Deornwulf
Whatever happened to the age old maxim "The Customer is always right?" Everytime any of you argue with someone's negative appraisal of the game, you are ignoring the fact that since that individual is the consumer, the individual has the right to complain if he or she feels the goods purchased are faulty.

Im not argue against whiners as some kind of official represent (which Im not - obviously). Im argue against you guys as one all-in-all satified CUSTOMER, amongst many. And as a customer Im always right, right? Why should I, as an reasonably satisfied customer be less right, compared to some of the more disgruntled customers in this forum? I have posted over 1500+ lengthy replies over a timespan of 3 years. Shouldnt I have the right to speak out, without being accused to fawning the company line?

It has been said before, but Im saying it again:

Civ-3 is a raw & unpolished diamond. It NEEDS some polishing - some alterations back and fourth. And some additional expansion-stuff, as well. But it has still gem-quality to begin with. No question about it.

[Libertarian]

Originally posted by Th0mas


sheesh Lib

With your attitude I'm surprised any Firaxis guys respond

I can't quite decide whether it's a step up or a step down from the recent days when I was their champion defender and they summarily ignored me. [...shrug...] All in all, I would say same same.

[Canaris]

My god, the editor was meant to tweak the game for smaller adjustments. I can't use it to change serious FLAWS in the game.

I would be DELIGHTED if someone could point me to where in the editor I make the AI stop cheating and actualy, you know play on the same terms as me.

Just for kicks, I made a custom map giving my self about 25 goodie huts around my starting point. I finished the ancient age in oh 7 or 8 turns. But somehow MIRACULOUSLY the shitty indians, egyptians and whatever with their SINGLE city managed to keep up with me in technology all the way to the modern ages.

Fact: The AI does not need to research technology. Can I change that in my editor?

Fact: The AI players trade tech's among them freely and instantly even if they have no plausible way of meeting each other.

Fact: AI Wonders of the worlds ARE NOT BUILD. They are just randomly created at the whim of god knows whatever algorithm. I started building leonardos in a size 12 city with a base production of 23 shields/ turn. About 10 turns later the indians started building it too in a rediculously inferior city with not even half the shield production of mine. I kept watching it with my embassy and it was no where near done when I got the message they had completed it. Ironicaly, ONE FRIGGING TURN before mine was done.

Fact: CORRUPTION IS COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY INSANE. There, I said it, yes you can alter THIS in the editor but even so it's too high. Am I really the only one that feels it's retarded that the it takes at least 100 turns to finish a hidden palace only 5 cities away from your capital. COME ON.

Fact: conquest is utterly pointless in the late game. It takes massive troop allocation to quell the rioting, half the inhabitants will die because after I invade they suddenly forget the way to the fields and mines and wont remember until I finish a temple. Which will take eons to build as it's far from my capital. COME ON

Someone explain to me how I am going to make up for this piece of **** over night not even close to half assed AI by changing unit values names and resource allocation!)#!=)!)#=#!=)#!=)

I played Civ 1 and 2 religiously everyday for ever. And it's only stubborness keeping me playing civ3 once a week now. A part of me just refuses to believe how they screwed up in this game.

Feel free to pick apart my post by pointing at my excessive use of caps and eventual typos/mispellings.

Indiana

[Ralf]

Originally posted by Canaris
Just for kicks, I made a custom map giving my self about 25 goodie huts around my starting point. I finished the ancient age in oh 7 or 8 turns. But somehow MIRACULOUSLY the shitty indians, egyptians and whatever with their SINGLE city managed to keep up with me in technology all the way to the modern ages.

Canaris - you just have to explain that example of yours a little better. You dont make any logical sense to me.

How is it possible to "finish the ancient age in o 7 or 8 turns"? How is it possible that the Indians/egyptians never produced any settlers (only ONE city each - their capitols, obviously) - all the way into modern age?

[ACooper]

In saying "What Arrogance " your obviously talking about yourself. Right?

[eRAZOR]

Originally posted by ****gyRA
In saying "What Arrogance " your obviously talking about yourself. Right?

Hello? *knock* *knock* Have you actually read his post? Yes?

[Ralf]

Originally posted by eRAZOR
Hello? *knock* *knock* Have you actually read his post? Yes?

I have read his reply, eRAZOR, but all I can see is one pretty weird impossible-to-grasp setup-example, that doesnt seems to relate to the excisting game-mechanics & rules at all. From that he extract all kinds of "Facts", that I for one neither agree with; nor have experienced, or even suspected during the 4-5 weeks I repeatedly have played this game.

[Blaupanzer]

Originally posted by Canaris
Fact: The AI does not need to research technology. Can I change that in my editor?

No evidence of this. Calling it a fact doesn't make it one.

Originally posted by Canaris
Fact: The AI players trade tech's among them freely and instantly even if they have no plausible way of meeting each other.

Have not seen this, do not believe it to be so. Besides, according to your first point, the AIs don't have to do research, so what difference does t make if they trade techs.

Originally posted by Canaris
Fact: AI Wonders of the worlds ARE NOT BUILT. They are just randomly created at the whim of god knows whatever algorithm. I started building Leonardo's in a size 12 city with a base production of 23 shields/turn. About 10 turns later the Indians started building it too in a ridiculously inferior city with not even half the shield production of mine. I kept watching it with my embassy, and it was no where near done when I got the message they had completed it. Ironicaly, ONE FRIGGING TURN before mine was done.

1) Was the Wonder built in the city you were "watching from your embassy." (Seeing how expensive it would be to pay espionage costs on a turn-by-turn basis, you wasted a lot of gold.) The AI does sometimes build wonders in more than one city, or switch between them at the last second, just as you can. (For example, start building FP in one city, then start Leonardo's in another. At last second switch Leonardo's to another wonder and finish Leonardo's in the city building the FP with just enough shields.) You can do it, so can they.

Originally posted by Canaris
Fact: CORRUPTION IS COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY INSANE. There, I said it, yes you can alter THIS in the editor but even so it's too high. Am I really the only one that feels it's retarded that the it takes at least 100 turns to finish a hidden palace only 5 cities away from your capital. COME ON.

What does "5 cities away" mean? At 20 squares, the player still has enough potential production capacity to finish much sooner than "100" turns.

Originally posted by Canaris
Fact: conquest is utterly pointless in the late game. It takes massive troop allocation to quell the rioting, half the inhabitants will die because after I invade they suddenly forget the way to the fields and mines and won't remember until I finish a temple. Which will take eons to build as it's far from my capital. COME ON.

Buy the temple, or if commie, reduce the populace to get it. Look around you, IRL holding conquered cities requires serious Governmental resources and garrisons.

Originally posted by Canaris
Feel free to pick apart my post by pointing at my excessive use of caps and eventual typos/mispellings.
Indiana

It isn't your typing, it's your reasoning that makes for difficulties. The game isn't easy, it requires time to master. That's why it has such a high replay value.

[EnochF]

I want to add some of the features from Civ II that were (for no apparent reason I can see) removed from Civ III. Show me how, using the editor, to add a Superhighways improvement that adds one trade for every road square in a city radius. Show me how, using the editor, to add a wonder with the effect of the old Adam Smith's, that pays for every city improvement costing 1 gold. Show me how, using the editor, to add Farmland tile improvements and Supermarkets. Show me how, using the editor, to give a free tech advance to the first civ that discovers Philosophy. Show me how, using the editor, to make the Electronics advance double the entertainment value of Colosseums. Show me how, using the editor, to put randomly generated barbarians in later stages of the game, appearing as knights or riflemen. Show me how, using the editor, to have Partisans emerge from conquered cities after the discovery of Guerrilla Warfare. In fact, show me how, using the editor, to add Guerrilla Warfare without eliminating another tech advance to do it. Show me how to add a tech icon for it that actually appears in the game without screwing up the tech icons for every other advance.

For that matter, show me how, using the editor, to add a Stock Exchange improvement. It's relatively easy to change something else into a stock exchange. Simply give it a +50% gold bonus that requires a bank. But how do you add it? And how do you program a graphic for it that appears in the game itself?

Show me how, using the editor, to add automobiles to gameplay, so it doesn't take your construction workers thirty years to get to the other side of the island and build your tourist section... oh wait, that's Tropico again... I've been playing that game a lot lately.

[Immortal Wombat]

This thread sucks

[Canaris]

No evidence of this. Calling it a fact doesn't make it one.

No, I have no other evidence than my experience. I suggest you conduct the same experiment I mentioned. Make a cheesy map with a plethora of goodie huts to get a huge tech advantage. I bet you anything the AI's will be at worst, 2 techs behind you.

Have not seen this, do not believe it to be so. Besides, according to your first point, the AIs don't have to do research, so what difference does t make if they trade techs.

This makes a huge difference when you're trading technology with the AI. If I am the first to get nuclear power. I damn well want to be able to sell it to all the AI's first. But somehow STRANGELY they manage to procure it during or just before my negotiations with other AI's

Was the Wonder built in the city you were "watching from your embassy." (Seeing how expensive it would be to pay espionage costs on a turn-by-turn basis, you wasted a lot of gold.) The AI does sometimes build wonders in more than one city, or switch between them at the last second, just as you can. (For example, start building FP in one city, then start Leonardo's in another. At last second switch Leonardo's to another wonder and finish Leonardo's in the city building the FP with just enough shields.) You can do it, so can they.

I checked every other turn, it's progress was natural compared to the shield production of that city. There was no way it could have been completed in time. And no, it was built in that town, not switched in the last minute to a more advanced one. Again, I urge you to monitor the AI's building habits. That's about the only thing espionage is good for, but that's a rant in it's own.

5 Cities, right that could have been worded better. 5 cities is 5 x the distance between optimaly placed cities. IE 4 squares on the same row. So 20 squares away. Making for a matrix of a 5 x 5 empire (25 cities). Which seems to be to the bare minimum if you want to research all technologies in reasonable time. More often I have 50 cities, and building a second palace is a huge pain in the ass. I think the shield requirements for it should be halfed and corruption lowered by 20% overall.

Buy the temple, or if commie, reduce the populace to get it. Look around you, IRL holding conquered cities requires serious Governmental resources and garrisons.

Omg, the realism excuse is such a copout. But if you want to go that way sure. During WW2 my country denmark was invaded by germany. It took them about 22 hours to seize the entire country and they held it with a minimum ammount of forces for the duration of the war. We didn't forget how to feed our selves. So half the population died of starvation.
Actualy I can't think of any historic episode that even remotely looks like the absurd situation in Civilization 3. Way too often, a recently conqured city defects with an insane ammount of units in it. What happends to my army, please do tell

And I apologize for my somewhat undocumented ranting above.
I believe my examples are easy to reproduce tho and for the record I play on Regent.

And also if you want more things that I can't change with my editor, how about having to watch all your 50 cities go in to revolt/WLTKD ONE BY ONE. Or watching your workers move, or the AI move the same 15 knights back and forth near your borders. Late game turns takes several minutes for me and it just makes me want to quit.

God I loved the other games in the series, but Civ 3 has been such a disapointment. Do you remember the old preferences menu of Civ2 or just alpha centauri? You could chose exactly what you wanted to monitor and what you wanted to ignore. All that was stripped out of Civ3. This is like Civilization light and it saddens me.

And still, I could forgive them all the shortcomings of Civ3 if only it had multiplayer. Playing with someone else would make it so much more interesting.

Indiana