Column #124; By Tim Bromige

July 15, 2000, 23:28

Tim Bromige gets right to his point: what was wrong in CivII can be fixed in CivIII, in his debut article entitled "Civilization III".

Comments/questions welcomed here.

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Dan; Apolyton CS

TCO · July 16, 2000, 10:08

Oo-rah!

Par4 · July 16, 2000, 16:01

Spods and Geeks hmm that's nice

Actually there's a rule, well not a rule but you can see it happen, in the 3rd game you have to change it or it fails, be it reviews or sales most 3rd generation incarnations can't copy the 2nd or they fail somehow. You'll notice that many games are changing a lot but are going to be the same but the same at heart.

And most of the ideas here are just suggestions Firaxis can take them and change them so they can make Civ3 like Civ2 but better.

I'm still wondering why everyone gets so uppidy about this place I mean, don't you think Firaxis has a brain and will only use suggestions that don't **** up the Civ formula or make the game suck!??!??! Geez these guys, well what's left of 'em, made the last 2 games don't you trust them to use our ideas wisely in the 3rd. And we don't even know if they will use any of these ideas, well they probably will but hey you never know

.

Bottom line, if I want to play Civ2, I'll play Civ2, I don't wanna spend 50 bucks to play Civ2 with some new graphics and AI, still the build a trillion cities and maul the guy tactics. I would rather go out and buy a better game, maybe MOO3 or Wolf3d 2 or WC3.

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King Par4!!

fldmarshallpar4@icqmail.com

There is no spoon
-The Matrix
Let's kick it up a notch!!
-Emeril Lagasse
Fresh Soy makes Tofu so silky
-Ming Tsai
[This message has been edited by Par4 (edited July 16, 2000).]

July 16, 2000, 16:32

Yin:

The "quality" of articles of this nature is completely subjective. What you see written are the author's opinions and feelings, and save spelling and grammatical corrections, we do not modify anything in the articles submitted to us in any fashion. Such actions would be inappropriate.

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Dan; Apolyton CS

P.S. Shortly after the article in question was posted, we received another article submission which will go online next weekend.

That said, we are in need of more articles to post in the following weeks. Please see the Article Submission page for more information on how you can contribute to this feature.

yin26 · July 16, 2000, 16:46

Dan,

It's not totally subjective. When you allow people to start calling poster here names --posters who at least have a passion for thinking about new possibilities -- then you create a hostile environment. I daresay that such an "opinion" stated this way under my moderation would have been locked or at least the poster would have been asked nicely to refrain from the names and make an intelligent argument.

But this was posted as an article!

It's one thing to state an opinion. Another to make witless attacks. Clearly there was a lack of any decent article, so you went with this one. Personally, I'd rather stare at a blank page then read a silly, half-page slur against some of the best people on this site. Even an article on how to clean stains out of the carpet would have done Apolyton more justice...

However, you are normally much better about things like this, so I'll just consider it a bad day.

Adm.Naismith · July 16, 2000, 19:20

Funny how lot of Civ game players look every game at Civilopedia, discovery tree and the like, still they don't look as they can't really see anything.

I mean, science and technology often slowly evolve from a step to the next. Often, that's the word.

Sometimes they simply leap lot higher.

Orville and Wilbur Wright, just for example.

I don't mean that they, as an Hollywood movie, did a magic work from nothing. Of course they studied, looked around carefully, tried and tested.

Tim Bromige has an idea of minor step evolution.
Some of us, with lot of silly and unrealistic proposal, studied, looked around, openly debate and propose to Firaxis a leap.

We don't care if you disagree with us. There are still planes on the sky.

Not a lot of hot ballons, anymore.

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant
[This message has been edited by Adm.Naismith (edited July 16, 2000).]

July 16, 2000, 20:10

well, this time the related thread got a few more replies than the usual and quickly yin

yin26 · July 17, 2000, 00:15

Oh, I didn't realize that was all that mattered.

Well, in that case, I take back my objections.

Lodi · July 17, 2000, 00:36

I still think there still could be major changes to the game that would not automatically make it a no-Civ game.

For example a higher number of civs. If done right an increased number would add more depth and variety to the game.

But all changes that are far-reaching still could be done wrong. It all matters on the effort and time given to the developement of the game.

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I am the Roman Emperor, and am above grammar.
-Emperor Sigismund

yin26 · July 17, 2000, 00:50

quote:

Why then, do the various spods and geeks who infest sites like this, seem to think that the same can't be done with Civ3? Are they so dense that they cannot see that major surgery of the sort they are discussing (e.g. no micro-management, no cities, spherical worlds) will mean that the game is not Civ3, but Something Else 1?

Hopefully this is some kind of inside joke, or I'm left to assume we don't care about the quality of articles anymore?

July 17, 2000, 07:08

of course that's not all that matters...

please give your objections again

yin26 · July 17, 2000, 07:21

Well, since you ARE Markos after all, you can have my objections back.

MidKnight Lament · July 17, 2000, 08:46

quote:

Originally posted by yin26 on 07-16-2000 12:50 PM
Hopefully this is some kind of inside joke, or I'm left to assume we don't care about the quality of articles anymore?

Yeah, I agree. I'm not sure who exactly he was referring to there, but I found it offensive anyway. And yes, Civ does have to change. Live with it, and get over it.

- MKL

Steve Clark · July 17, 2000, 11:13

Why don't you realize that NOTHING will meet your unrealistic expectations? I am a spod or a geek just like the rest of you and if you find that truth objectionable, so be it. Firaxis will develop Civ3 to be a successor to Civ2, for the sole purpose of selling 500,000+ copies. They will not be developing a game just to satisfy us spods and geeks. Live with that and get over it.

(how was that for a Monday morning rant?)

Par4 · July 17, 2000, 15:13

I can just imagine the news headline, on page 15

"Famous video game designer, Sid Meier, and his studio design teams were killed today in a firebomb terrorist attack. Firaxis was located in Maryland(I think), and had just finished completing a game expected to sell over a million copies."

Seriously I don't expect any of the stuff I post to get in the game and I'm fine with that and I hope everyone else is too.

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King Par4!!

fldmarshallpar4@icqmail.com

There is no spoon
-The Matrix
Let's kick it up a notch!!
-Emeril Lagasse
Fresh Soy makes Tofu so silky
-Ming Tsai
[This message has been edited by Par4 (edited July 17, 2000).]

MidKnight Lament · July 18, 2000, 08:49

Steve, I don't know if you were having a go at me there, but I don't go about making any demands. I believe that Firaxis will make Civ 3 quite a different game because of their own reasons and not because I say so. I'm not so over-inflated that I think they'll lower to most if not all of my suggestions. Because that's what they are. Purely suggestion. Saying "what-if". For the fun of it as much as out of any real hope that what I say will get noticed in the grand scheme of things. I don't have any expectations, let alone unrealistic ones. I know that they'll go do whatever they think will sell them the most copies (and hopefully in the proccess appease the fans). And all we can do is hope that they'll do whatever is best for the genre. In the meantime, I'll hope to be a small part of what may turn out to be a subtle influence on how Civ 3 turns out. Either way, Civ 3 is going to be quite an evolution over Civ 2, because Firaxis can't afford it not to be.

- MKL

Grier · July 18, 2000, 09:27

Quite simply between civ2 and the release of civ3 there will have been 4 other civ games released, and frankly if it isnt better than the most recent (ctp2) then it will fail miserably, no question about it.

Also not everyone here is a geek or a spod and I for one find the names derogeratory and insulting.

Par4 · July 18, 2000, 16:21

Maybe he meant 'Spud'

You know a
P-O-T-A-T-O-{E}

looking at Dan Quayle

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King Par4!!

There is no spoon
-The Matrix
Let's kick it up a notch!!
-Emeril Lagasse
Fresh Soy makes Tofu so silky
-Ming Tsai

Az · July 18, 2000, 16:58

the article's writer , I think , expresses his deepest feelings about posters which allow themselves to dream .

maybe you should make this kind of forum called My civilization on the OTHER segment.

each registered member will have his/her own thread and then you'll archive it all up . each new user will be given the opportunity to " write down " and discribe it . the short way or the long way will be his shot .

Dalgetti

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Prepare to Land !

Steve Clark · July 19, 2000, 00:00

Actually I'm not sure what a spod is, I just went along with that since I don't take any name-calling personally.

I think it is the polarization that was mentioned in another thread. Basically, I (and probably others) view Civ2 as being a unique game, albeit imperfect. Many of the suggestions seem to want to take away some of this uniqueness by moving it closer to other titles. There are those that want it to play like a wargame; or those to play like Imperialism; or those to play like CtP; or AoE or Pharaoh/C3, and so on. Civ2 entails a very particular scale and balance that makes it unique and ....

I'll stop now and put this thought into a new topic. Something just clicked in my mind about this debate.

Father Beast · July 21, 2000, 23:09

Really guys!
qut nitpicking what he called your oh-so-tender feelings, and listen to what he said. some of you have, in taking issue with the writer suggesting we limit the innovation present in civ3. I commend you.
I myself mostly agree with him, which you will see if the next article is mine. I personally agree that no cities will make it a different game, but spherical worlds can be done. maybe. I'm split on the micromanagement issue.
we'll see whe the game comes out, won't we?