Governments

[The Joker]

That's it!

To give you guys some help in the development of your SE Models, to prevent you from reinventing the wheel and to show just how AMAZINGLY accurate and advanced you can actually make an SE Model I am now posting M@ni@c's SE Model, which was propably the most advanced of them.

But there are 3 or 4 other models (mine included) availible at the SE Models thread and at the older SE thread at the ideas forum.

You will be surprised just how incredible this model is.

Of cause it is still really old (6 months or so), and both M@ni@c and myself has, as I have previously mentioned, moved beyond the SE level, so the model could still be improved a lot. I leave this up to you!

quote: A SE model. By M@ni@c This model tries to give a solution to a very large problem: how to adapt Alpha Centauri’s Social Engineering screen in the more complex earth societies. While almost everyone agreed that the Social Engineering screen ( for now on, called SE in short ) is a better system than Civ I & Civ II government options, the methods in which we hope to achieve this are widely different from one another. So, in a nutshell, my own opinion. Sections: 1. Concepts that are used in the model 2. List of SE Factors 3. The model itself and some other SE related topic 1. Concepts that are used in the model This section contains: 1.1. The x10 system 1.2. SE switching 1.1. The x10 system When trying to find a solution for the Industry cheat in SMAC, I came up with the solution of doing everything in Civ3 x10. That means that now a grassland would produce 20 food instead of 2, but citizens should also need 20 food every turn. Same for labor/resources and trade. Trade x10 means also taxes, science and luxuries x10… After a while it became clear that x10 can do much more than just solve the Industry cheat problem. For example you can have techs that increase your overall food production of squares with 10%. Or you can give units a different support, so you can show the difference between Riflemen and Tank support. Now you can represent that units need food and gold as their pay. In short, there are many applications and therefore I think x10 must be in Civ3. 1.2.SE switching 1.2.1) Changing your SE choices in SMAC was too easy. With just paying a little money, you could be Democracy the first turn, Police State the second and the third turn Fundamentalist without any problem. Therefore I suggest that SE switching takes something longer, 3 turns. Of course there should be some penalty for switching larger than some money, because that doesn’t stop people from regular switching. My suggestion: 0th turn: old bonuses and old penalties 1st and 2nd turn: old bonuses, old and new penalties 3rd turn: new bonuses and new penalties 1.2.2) This counts for SE switching in every category except Government. There you are Anarchy for three turns before installing another Government choice. 1.2.3) However then SE switching is still too easy. Using the idea of Education can solve this. Besides that it would replace Science when it comes to research, it should also have the following use. Education points are gathered the same way as Science. You just allocate a certain percentage of your trade to it. 1.2.4) You should have gathered a certain amount of Education points before you can successfully make a SE switch. Changing your SE choice for Government and Economy should require the most Education points. The other some less. If you haven’t gathered a good amount of points and you still change a SE choice, there is a big chance that some cities will revolt and form a new civ. This is also affected by your SE Happiness rate. The number of points necessary for a SE switch should be: X * Population Where: X is a number dependent on 1) which SE category you want to change and 2) which difficulty level you’re playing on. Population is how many population units your civ has. So how many cities will revolt is dependent on how many population units you didn’t convince/educate. 2. List of SE Factors My proposed model uses an expanded list of Factors than SMAC. All what was in SMAC is here: but this model also controls many other factors and effects. Therefore it is impossible to reduce the list to ten factors as in SMAC, as some people wanted. However, there was no beta-testing and game play balancing. The numbers and actual bonus the Factors and options grant is, naturally, completely unbalanced. I only try to give by this model the sense of direction. So, here are my suggested 14 Factors. In some cases I am very precise and give effects for every possible rate. In other cases I just give one example and for the rest I use… The Factors: 1. Police 2. Military 3. Nationalism 4. Happiness 5. Experience 6. Growth 7. Centralization 8. Environment 9. Research 10. Taxes 11. Economy 12. Relations 13. Bureaucracy 14. Senate Elaborate explanations: With most factors there is also some information that has nothing to do with SE itself, but that is necessary to fully understand the factor. 2.1. Police (Pol) 2.1.1) Declaring a Purge means all people become content for ten turns, similar to SMAC nerve staple. However, unlike in SMAC, the effects wouldn’t lessen after repeated use. A purge is an atrocity in modern times after the UN has been established. 2.1.2) In all Civ versions I wondered why airplanes caused unhappiness. The reason a manual gave me was that it was because the pilots had to do practice flights and were always in the air. That caused unhappiness. But IMHO that isn’t a reason. As long as a democracy (Western countries) is bombarding another nation (Serbia, Iraq) there is no problem. It's only when they want to send ground troops and the boys of the country itself can get killed, there comes trouble. That's why I think Air units should cause less unhappiness. This is also a way to make Bombers more useful if you have a negative Police rate. Another benefit of Air units is that you could send them to an enemy without permission of your pact nations (see –7 and –8 Pol rates). 2.1.3) With allies I mean simple allies. With pact nations I mean civs that are in your multistate-coalition (e.g. NATO, probably possible in Civ3). There should be at least 4 civs to have a coalition. 2.1.4) There should be a council proposal à la SMAC possible to or not to allow nuke use. 2.1.5) About territory. I think even if there aren’t sea bases in Civ3, there should be sea borders. 1 square away in ancient times after the tech discovery of the Sail. Two in renaissance after the tech discovery of the Compass. Three in modern times. 2.1.6) Several people said that even under Democracy, police is still used. To represent that I would give the Police Station City Improvement a ‘makes one unhappy citizen content’ effect, no matter what your Police rate is. +4: 3 units can act as police. Police effect doubled. May use Purge. +3: 3 units can act as police. Police effect doubled. Can’t use purge. +2: 3 units can act as police, each keeping one unhappy citizen content. +1: 2 units can act as police 0: 1 unit can act as police -1: No police. (This also counts for all lower Police rates) -2: Units in your territory or in an allied city never cause unhappiness. All units in allied territory never cause unhappiness. Every unit beyond the first out of your or your allies' territory causes one drone. -3: Units in your territory or in an allied city never cause unhappiness. All units in allied territory never cause unhappiness. Every land or sea unit out of your or your allies' territory causes one drone. Every air unit beyond the first out of your or your allies' territory causes one drone. -4: Units in your territory or in an allied city never cause unhappiness. Every land or sea unit in your allies’ territory, but not in one of their cities, cause one drone. All air units beyond the first in your allies’ territory cause one drone. Every land or sea unit out of your or your allies’ territory causes two drones. All air units beyond the first out of your or your allies’ territory cause one drone. -5: Units in your territory or in an allied city never cause unhappiness. Every unit in allied territory, but not in one of their cities, causes one drone. Land and sea units out of your or your allies’ territory cause two drones. Air units out of your or your allies’ territory cause one drone. -6: Units in your territory or in an allied city never cause unhappiness. Units not in your territory cause two drones. (This also counts for all lower police rates) -7: You (or your senate, depends on your Senate rate; later more about this) must ask permission to your pact nations to send ground or nuclear (if allowed by some agreement) units to an enemy. ½ must agree. -8: You (or your senate, depends on your Senate rate; later more about this) must ask permission to your pact nations to send ground or nuclear (if allowed by some agreement) units to an enemy. 2/3 must agree. 2.2. Military (Mil) 2.2.1) This is actually a combination of two factors that were earlier separated: Support and Military Industry. To reduce the number of factors and because they are about the same thing –army- they have been melted together. 2.2.2) I think units should have a different support. Transports or Explorers won't need as much support as Battleships or Knights. This is easy to do with the x10 system. 2.2.3) For every +Military, one less resource is needed to support the unit. For example, if a Knights requires normally 10 resources to support, with +4 Military it would only require 6 resources. 2.2.4) For every -Military, one more resource is needed to support the unit. For example, if a Knights requires normally 10 resources to support, with -4 Military it would only require 14 resources. 2.2.5) This means that units free of support are impossible unless you have a very high Military rate. This solves the ICS problem of “one size ten cities gives me 3 free units while ten size one cities give me 30 free units”. 2.2.6) For –1 Military and every higher Military rate, when you found a new city you get 100 (x10!) labor/resources for free, unless a new City Foundation model is used, e.g. Radical Ideas 11.3). 2.2.7) Military also affects your labor (see more in the Economy/Trade thread for more explanation about Labor and Resources) output when producing units with 10% per + or -. If your normal labor output is 200 labor, when producing e.g. a Howitzer it would increase to 220 if you have +1 Military. This is to solve the Industry cheat in SMAC where the cost of units, buildings and secret projects was directly affected. 2.2.8) And if idea 4.16) of the Technology thread is used, the research speed of the Military category is also affected. … +1: +10% Labor production bonus when producing military units.; one less resource needed for support; research in Military Research category increased with 10%. 0: normal -1: -10% Labor production penalty when producing military units.; one more resource needed for support; research decreased with 10%. 2.3. Nationalism (Nat) 2.3.1) For this factor I am assuming there is a migration model in Civ3 (Radical Ideas 11.3)). For more information on Conviction (=religious defense), see the Religion thread summary. I am also assuming there will be atrocities and international punishments like trade embargoes. +6: +75% Conviction for your state religion if you have one or for all religions in your empire if you are Religious Freedom. No emigration possible No bribing possible No international punishment for atrocities +5: +67% Conviction Very very low emigration No bribing Very very low punishment for atrocities +4: +50% Conviction Very low emigration No bribing Very low punishment for atrocities +3: +37% Conviction Low emigration +75% cost of enemy Spy/Diplomat actions Lower punishment for atrocities +2: +25% Conviction Lower emigration +50% cost of enemy Spy/Diplomat actions +1: +12% Conviction Slightly lower emigration +25% cost of enemy Spy/Diplomat actions 0: normal -1: -12% Conviction -25% cost of enemy Spy/Diplomat actions -2: -25% Conviction -50% cost of enemy Spy/Diplomat actions -3: -37% Conviction -50% cost of enemy Spy/Diplomat actions 2.4. Happiness (Hap) 2.4.1) Your Happiness rate determines how long it takes for conquered cities to assimilate to your culture and cause less happiness. In SMAC it was 50 turns. For every +Happiness you have more than the city of the previous owner, the city needs 10 less turns to assimilate. Per –Happiness, it’s ten turns more. Means more unhappiness and increases the likeliness of revolting and forming a new civ. Also if you conquer a city of a civ with a higher Hap rate, there appear Partisans. 2.4.2) If a majority of the citizens of the conquered city follow your state religion, they are immediately assimilated. 2.4.3) Happiness affects how many citizens are automatically ‘born’ content in a city before unhappy citizens appear. Note this is an addition to the normal first-unhappiness rule (e.g. Chieftain = 7) and it is NOT the same as the unhappiness effects because of a too large empire. 2.4.4) Normally you should be able to set the amount of trade you allocate for luxuries on a maximum of 50%. Happiness rate should affect this. So if you have e.g. a Happiness rate of –4, it should be practically impossible for you to mend the unhappy citizens by high luxury rates. 2.4.5) The Happiness rate affects how much money it costs to bribe units/cities. 2.4.6) The effectiveness of the Entertainer special citizen is also affected. 2.4.7) If 4.16) of the Technology thread is used, Happiness affects the research speed of the Social/Philosophical category. … +2: luxuries can be set at 70%; bribing 25% cheaper; Entertainers give 20% more luxuries; Social/Philosophical Research 20% faster +1: Less unhappy citizens; 60%; bribing 12% cheaper; Entertainers +10%; Research 10% faster 0: luxury rate can be set at 50% -1: More unhappy citizens; 40%; bribing 12% more expensive; Entertainers –10%; Research 10% slower … 2.5. Experience (Exp) 2.5.1) Necessary for this social factor to work is off course that the Morale distinction of SMAC is used. I don’t like the word Commando to express the experience level of a unit, so these are my proposed names. Very Green Green Disciplined Trained Hardened Veteran Elite 2.5.2) This SE factor does also affect the Experience of Spies and Diplomats, since good armies always have too a good intelligence, espionage and reconnaissance. Spy/Diplomat Experience also affects their success rate in missions. 2.5.3) In SMAC all the units got a Morale bonus if you e.g. switched to Power. I would change it. Only the units build under the +Experience regime get the bonus and even if after that you change to a choice with –Experience, that units keep the Experience bonus. The opposite is also true. If you build units when you have a bad Experience rate, they don’t get an Experience bonus when you switch to e.g. Power. So cheating like only switching to Value – Power or Army – Professional when you are in war should have no positive effect on your already built units. … +1: +1 Experience 0: normal Experience -1: -1 Experience -2: -1 Experience; positive combat modifiers halved -3: -2 Experience; + modifiers halved … 2.6. Growth (Gro) 2.6.1) This determines how much your people tend to go from the countryside to the cities = their willingness to live in a huge city (in other words your population limit) and it determines how much rows must be filled to let the city grow (similar to SMAC). 2.6.2) I think cities should continue to grow even if there is no aqueduct or similar building in the city. My Growth Factor is based on it. The drawback would be that all people not having sufficient clean water (=Aqueduct, Sewer System) or living space (=Apartment Blocks, Arcology) become Revolutionaries = very unhappy citizens. Too many Revolutionaries can cause a city to revolt and form a new civ. 2.6.3) City size 7 or 8: Aqueduct needed (if you have 0 Gro as your Growth rate) 12/14 Sewer System (not the modern one that came much too early in Civ2, but something like the Roman Cloaca = sewerage. 20: Apartment Block 30: Arcology 40: Super Arcology? Or perhaps there should be a building for 40, to simulate population pressure. 2.6.4) I think in the early parts of the game, so I mean until the Modern Age, population boom should be impossible. This is as much cheating as ICS. So the pop boom problem of ‘Democracy-Planned-Children’s Crèche’ in SMAC and ‘Democracy + high luxuries’ in Civ2 should also be solved. My solution: Not +6 Gro, but +10 Gro should cause pop boom. Of course, with SE alone, it isn’t possible to get that. +2 Gro each = Fundamentalism, Utopia, Socialism SE choices +3 Gro each = Granary, Hospital Golden Age = +2 Gro Since Utopia, Fundamentalism and the Hospital city improvement are only available in the modern/near future age, 10 Gro is impossible until in the Modern Age. 2.6.5) A Granary and a Hospital should only affect the # of rows that must be filled to let the city grow, not the pop limit. +10: Cities have a population boom every turn if sufficient Food is available in your city/region/civ (depends on what food system is used. … +6: +6 Population limit; only 4 rows must be filled to let a city increase in size … +1: +1 Population limit; only 9 rows must be filled to let a city increase in size 0: normal -1: -1 pop limit; 11 rows must be filled. … 2.6.6) Or in another growth system (I think city growth by surplus food is totally unrealistic), like birth/die/immigration/emigration the SE Growth factor should increase the # of children a family on an average has, thus increasing the birth rate. 2.7. Centralization (Cen) 2.7.1) For every +Centralization, the Irrigation/Farm Terrain Improvements produces 10% more food and you produce also 10% more labor when producing non-military units, city improvements or wonders of the world 2.7.2) For every –Centralization, the Irrigation and Farm TI produces 10% more food and you produce also 10% less labor when producing non-military units, city improvements or wonders of the world … +1: +10% food output of Irrigation/Farm TI’s; +10% Labor when producing non-military units, city improvements or wonders of the world 0: normal -1: -10% food output of Irrigation/Farm TI’s; -10% Labor when producing non-military units, city improvements or wonders of the world … 2.7.3) Notes: 1) Using everythingx10 model 2) Other ways to increase Food production can be Technologies: E.g. in the beginning of the game an Irrigation yields +8 extra Food. -Pottery: +1 Food for Irrigation TI. -Horse Plowing: +1 " " " " -Crop Rotation: +1 “ “ “ “ This allows a more gentle and realistic increase in food production than the rude and sudden Despotism in Civ2 and Gene Splicing in SMAC. 2.8. Environmentalism (Env) 2.8.1) There should be three types of pollution: industrial, population pollution (as in Civ2) and nuclear pollution. The Environment factor can increase or decrease industrial and population pollution. 2.8.2) Environment should also increase or decrease the likeliness of plagues, diseases, natural disasters, etc… 2.8.3) Environment increases or decreases the production of Forests, Jungles or any tree terrain type with 10% per + or – rate. 2.8.4) If idea 4.16) of the Tech summary is used, Environment should in/decrease the research speed in the Biology/Farming category. +1: Less pollution; less natural disruption; 10% more forest production; 10% faster Biology/Farming research 0: normal pollution rate -1: More pollution; more natural disruption; 10% less forest production; 10% slower Biology/Farming research. 2.9. Research (Res) 2.9.1) Without SE changes you can set your amount of trade used for Science to 70%. If the Education system is used, you can set the trade used for Education to 30%. 2.9.2) I am in favor of simultaneous research in each category. In that case, Research should only affect the research speed of Academic techs. Without simultaneous research, it should affect all research. 2.9.3) The Research SE Factor affects the bonus, a Library/University/Research Lab yields. This counts certainly if simultaneous research is used. Cause without this, the Research SE Factor would be too useless. 2.9.4) Your Res rate should affect how much science icons a Scientist Special citizen generates. Unless an Education system is used. Then a Scientist should increase the bonus yielded by Library/Univ/Res Lab. +1: +10% (Academic?) Research; you may set your trade allocated to science at 80% or your Education at 40%; Scientists generate 10% more Science or they add a bonus to the science building bonuses 0: normal science accumulation; trade 70% -1: -10% (Academic?) Research; Science 60%/Education 20%; Scientists generate 10% less Science or give a smaller bonus 2.10. Taxes (Tax) 2.10.1) Normal amount of trade you can allocate to Taxes is 70%. 2.10.2) If you have e.g. a tax income of 20 gold and a Tax rate of +2, you get 22 Gold. 2.10.3) Your Tax rate affects how much Gold a Taxmen Special citizen generates. ... +1: +10% tax income; maximum tax allocation 80%; Taxmen generate 10% more Tax 0: normal Tax income; maximum tax allocation 70% -1: -10% tax income; maximum tax allocation 60%; Taxmen generate 10% less Tax … 2.11. Economy (Eco) 2.11.1) In SMAC +1 Economy was +1 Energy/base. That may be a nice bonus in the beginning of the game. But later in the game it means nothing. The x10 system can correct this, since it can make the Economy factor a bit more linear. 2.11.2) The capitals of civs should get 10 more trade. 2.11.3) To me, in SMAC the Economy bonuses above +2 were not worth the many negatives related to it. I solved it by giving +4 Economy another big bonus. 2.11.4) If simultaneous research is used, the Economy SE Factor affects the Research speed of the Economy/Applied category. 2.11.5) I would make economic cycling (=booms and busts in the economy) intrinsic to a high Economy rate instead of making it an independent factor as in The Joker’s model. +5: +24 trade/square; 50% faster Applied/Economic research +4: +20 trade/square; 40% +3: +12 trade/square; 30% +2: +10 trade/square; 20% +1: +2 trade/square; 10% 0: normal trade production -1: -1 trade/square; -10 trade in capital; 10% slower Applied/Economic Research -2: -3 trade/square; -10 trade in capital; 20% -3: -4 trade/square; -10 trade in capital; 30% -4: -5 trade/square; -10 trade in capital; 40% 2.12. Relations (Rel) 2.12.1) Note that Relations, not Economy as in SMAC gives a trade bonus. 2.12.2) The commerce bonus is the same as in SMAC. A +10 trade bonus for every trade route. 2.12.3) Of course, the relations you have with other civs should be determined mainly by your similar/different SE choices. 2.12.4) If you have a high Relation rate, an embassy with a civ would give more information. The opposite counts for negative Rel rates. … +1: +1 commerce; better diplomatic relationships; more embassy information 0: normal -1: -1 commerce; worse diplomatic relationships; less embassy information 2.13. Bureaucracy (Bur) 2.13.1) The better your Bureaucracy rate, the less trade you loose by cities far away from your capital (So no waste in Civ3). If the cities are connected with a road to the capital, there is slightly less corruption. 2.13.2) After you have founded/conquered a certain number of cities there appear some more unhappy citizens in random cities in your empire. Bureaucracy affects that # cities. 2.14. Senate (Sen) 2.14.1) I think that AI civs should also have a reputation. The Senate would be less willing to sign a peace treaty with a civ with a bad reputation. … +1: SE switching takes less education. 0: normal -1: your Senate signs a truce or a peace treaty 25% of the time (unless that civ has a bad reputation); the Senate forbids you to sneak-attack an enemy 25% of the time. -2: 50% Senate interference -3: 75% Senate interference -4: 100% Senate interference 3. The Model itself and some other SE related topics 3.0.1) This model shows all the options the player may select on the SE screen. For certain choices I have provided more than one name to make clearer what I mean with the choice. I also give an explanation for some factors, except if they were already explained in an earlier similar SE choice or if the reason is obvious. Firaxians, if you don’t get the reason why I gave a choice a certain factor, it isn’t forbidden to visit the Apolyton forums from time to time. 3.0.2) I didn’t use evolutions as in Harel’s model because choices just don’t disappear after you have discovered a certain techs. E.g. although they could certainly be Totalitarianism, certain Middle-East states are still an Absolute Monarchy. And why wouldn’t we be able to return to Laissez-faire (confer Transnational in Red Mars by Kim Stanley Robinson)? The only two choices I would like to become obsolete are Barter and Manorialism. Barter would be replaced by Currency and Manorialism by War economy. The model contains 5 categories: List of SE categories: 1. Government 2. Economy 3. Structure 4. Value 5. Army and also 6. Golden Age 7. Choice availability 3.1. Government Anarchy: -3 Hap, -3 Nat, -3 Cen (no Labor, Taxes, Science, Education or Luxuries generated) Warrior-King/Chieftainship: +1 Pol, -1 Hap (default choice) Absolute Monarchy: +2 Pol, +2 Sen, +1 Cen, -2 Bur Totalitarianism: +2 Pol, +2 Mil, +2 Sen, -2 Hap, -1 Bur Dynasty: +2 Rel, +1 Pol, -2 Tax Parliamentary Monarchy: +2 Bur, +2 Tax, -2 Mil, -1 Sen Theocracy*: +2 Nat, +2 Tax, -2 Res Fundamentalism*: +2 Nat, +2 Gro, +1 Exp, -2 Res, -2 Rel *You can build Cleric units under these government forms. Direct Democracy/Tribal Assembly: +2 Hap, -1 Bur, -1 Sen Republic/Oligarchy: +2 Bur, +2 Cen, -2 Pol, -1 Sen Representative Democracy: +2 Bur, +2 Hap, +2 Res, -2 Sen, -2 Pol, -1 Mil Notes where necessary: 3.1.1) Anarchy is by no means a valid option: you can't select Anarchy nor do you start with it as your first option. It may apply to single cities that riot, or to all your society in the duration of a SE Government switch. 3.1.2) Warrior-King is the earliest choice, because the Indo-European tradition is a king or leader who has to be ratified by the warrior/military class of the society. Historical vestiges of this are the acclamation of the Macedonian kings (like Philip and Alexander) by the Macedonian Army and the Witan or Widan assembly ratifying the early Germanic kings. 3.1.3) A Dynasty has +2 Rel because they can marry off their daughters to other civ’s leaders, which can create a family bond. 3.1.4) Parliamentary Monarchies as in England after Petition and Declaration of Rights, not the present monarchies-democracies in Europe. 3.1.5) Direct Democracy should be available shortly after Warrior-King. It can be handy if you have a perfectionist empire or if you are playing a One City Challenge game. 3.1.6) Let’s make this clear. With Republic, I don’t mean a state with a president as leader, which seems to be the definition in the USA. A president is counted under Representative Democracy. I mean a non-monarchial government. 3.2. Economy Barter: -2 Cen (default choice) ->Currency: no positives or negatives Autarky/Manorialism: +2 Mil, +1 Pol, -2 Cen ->War economy: +3 Mil, +2 Pol, +2 Sen, -3 Cen Guilds: +2 Bur, +2 Gro, -2 Env, -1 Eco Mercantilism: +2 Tax, +2 Cen, -2 Rel Planned/Communism: +3 Cen, +2 Nat, -2 Bur Utopia: +2 Hap, +2 Gro, +2 Env, -2 Eco Capitalism: +2 Eco, -3 Pol, -2 Mil, -1 Sen Corporate/Free Market: +2 Eco, +2 Bur, -5 Pol, -3 Env, -1 Sen Laissez-faire: +3 Eco, +2 Rel, -7 Pol, -3 Env, -2 Sen [/b]Notes:[/b] 3.2.1) To make it more realistic and to propose another drawback for ICS’ers, I suggest certain Urbanization is needed for the more advanced choices. The simple formula for Urbanization is: # population / # cities If the result of this calculation drops below a certain number, certain Economy choices should become unavailable. Barter, Currency and Autarky/Manorialism would always be available. Mercantilism requires something more. Then the state controlled systems: Planned and Utopia. The 3 free market choices should require the highest urbanization. 3.2.2) The –2 Cen penalty of Barter is an incentive to get a better Economy (eg Currency) as fast as possible. 3.2.3) Examples of certain choices: Manorialism in the early Middle Ages. Guilds in the later Middle Ages. Mercantilism has as perfect example Colbertism, but it was further used by many European states in the 18th century (so I do not agree with Harel's explanations of these choices). Capitalism are the early free markets, as with the Italian city states or the Phoenician empire. Corporate is the present economical system. Laissez-faire was in the previous century and the first decades of the 20th. And with Planned I mean the Russian system. I (and many others) hesitate to call it right out Communism because the USSR is a bad example for that matter, since they never realized the Marxist ideal. Real communism would have radically different stats. 3.3. Structure Unitary/Imperial: +1 Pol, +2 Nat, +2 Sen, -1 Bur, -1 Hap Feudal: +2 Tax, +2 Mil, +1Sen, -2 Gro City State: -1 Bur (default choice) Federal: +2 Bur, +1 Nat, -2 Mil, -1 Sen Confederate/Commonwealth: +2 Hap, +1 Rel, -2 Nat, -2 Sen 3.4. Value Pacifism: no positives or negatives (default choice) Imperialism: +2 Mil, +2 Exp, -2 Rel Wealth: +1 Eco, +1 Cen, -2 Hap Socialism/Welfare: +2 Hap, +2 Gro, -2 Tax Environment: +2 Env, +2 Rel, -2 Gro Knowledge: +2 Res, +1 Bur, -2 Exp 3.5.Army Tribal Levy: no positives or negatives (default choice; basically, everyone in the tribe who can carry a rock fights) Mercenary: +3 Exp, -1 Nat (+100% gold support for units; but it’s 50% cheaper to bribe barbarians and nomads to join your army) Professional/Military Caste: +2 Exp, -2 Mil Recruitment/Conscription: +2 Mil, -2 Exp (Rush-buying an infantry unit should only cost the double of the actual labor/resources cost. In civ2 terms, to complete a Riflemen unit would only require 80 gold. Cavalry and Artillery would still be expensive.) Draft: +1 Hap, +1 Nat, -1 Cen 3.6. Golden Age 3.6.1) The effects of Golden Age (50% of the city’s citizens is happy + no unhappy people) should be: +1 Eco, +2 Gro, +1 Bur 3.6.2) It was always annoying when you had one citizen too less to have a “We Love The… Day” and didn’t get anything extra; or if practically all your citizens were happy, and you didn’t get anything more than the effects of the normal “We Love The… Day”. Therefore, if the Labor/Resources distinction is used, happy people should produce 50% more Labor. The opposite also counts. Unhappy people should produce 50% less Labor and very unhappy people shouldn’t produce anything. 3.7. Choice availability I'll type here in what time I think the choices should appear. 3.7.1) Default choices available at the start (assuming Civ3 starts in 4000BC): Warrior-King, Barter, City State, Survival, Tribal Levy 3.7.2) Become available almost immediately: Direct Democracy, Currency, 3.7.3) Become available in early Ancient era: Autarky, Unitary, Power, Professional 3.7.4) Become available in late Ancient era: Dynasty?, Republic, Capitalism, Confederate (think of the Greeks, Phoenicians and their colonies), Wealth, Mercenary 3.7.5) Become available in the Middle Ages: Dynasty?, Theocracy, Feudal 3.7.6) Become available in the Renaissance and Enlightment: Absolute Monarchy, Parliamentary Monarchy, Mercantilism, Socialism, Knowledge 3.7.7) Become available in the Industrial Revolution: Democracy, Laissez-faire, Federal, Recruitment, War economy 3.7.8) Become available in Modern Age and near future: Fundamentalism, Planned, Corporate, Utopia (near future), Environment, Draft M@ni@c

[This message has been edited by The Joker (edited July 22, 2000).]

[Theben]

I don't think I was able to follow this the 1st time. So could I count on your support to move the links thread over?

To everyone else: Now that Joker's effectively killed this thread, I strongly encourage you to read what has been posted in the past. Not that all ideas aren't helpful, but instead of trying to build an idea "from the ground up", it would be better, IMHO, to add to what has come before.

[Father Beast]

No, I don't think this thread is dead, unless you insist on having SE in civ3.
I personally intend to stick with Christantine's initial proposal and have a choice of governments like before, but a bigger selection and better balance.

Now in scenarios you should be able to design any government you feel like, with all the possibilities mentioned by m@ni@c.
but I have to agree with raingoon, SE doesn't belong in civ3.

[The Joker]

Theben:

of cause you have my support!


Father Beast:

Well, I actually agree with you that SE shouldn't be in Civ3. But in stead of moving backwards to an oldfascioned and, well, poor system of governments I think that SE should be replaced with something new an advanced. A system, in which the people have power and so they can go against your wishes. It should be even more complex than SE. Check my SI model (a few months back at this forum) for some ideas on how that could be done. Of cause there are better ways of doing it.

And it's funny that you mentioning raingoon as one being against SE. Cause raingon is definately NOT for a rebirth of the ancient government types. If you read his column and the following debate you will know, that he feels the same way as me: that SE should be replaced with something new and fantastic.

Replacing SE with governments would bring nothing good at all, except that it would mean spending less time on macromanagement. But that, at least as far as I'm concerned, is really not a good thing at all.

[Shadowstrike]

You know guys, some of these ideas are in the "Revolutions" thread, including the people going against your view to change the government, etc.