View Poll Results: Why do the Whiners act like this? They...
like attention 15 15.15%
take part in their own "no. of replies"contest 4 4.04%
are employees of rival software companies 2 2.02%
like whining 15 15.15%
are just kids..(it's the age) 15 15.15%
don't like number 3 5 5.05%
can't understand the game 25 25.25%
have nothing! else to do 18 18.18%
Voters: 99. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old December 19, 2001, 15:30   #31
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I chose attention with this important modification. Many (not all) of these folks desperately need to draw attention to their Intelligence. There's a certain ethic these types prescribe to, and that is you're not intelligent unless you criticize something. In the worldview of most of these adherents, the opposite is also true: those who praise something, follow a tradition, or otherwise fail to criticize a product or concept are stupid. In many quarters, the manner in which one lays out the critique is itself the all-important sign of intelligence, of course making the act of criticizing essential.

The mistake here is obvious. Intelligent critical thinking can actually lead to praise of a concept, argument, or even a product like a computer game. One need not be critical to be a critical thinker.

This theory is of course not limited to computer game board posters; other notable practitioners include TV newscasters and newspaper reporters.

BTW, this does not mean that all criticism of CIV3 must be dismissed as negative prattling. It's just that most critiques found on this board give the reader the impression that the author is simply not disposed to offer even faint or partial praise for a product that most consider to be of high quality.
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Old December 19, 2001, 17:04   #32
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I voted for 'kids'--which isn't entirely accurate, but it was closest to my opinion. Personally, I don't think the whining has anything to do with physical age, but everything to do with maturity. Whining is what immature people do because they believe that the world should revolve around them and they are finding that it doesn't.

It's a game. It doesn't bring meaning to my life. It doesn't fulfill all of my needs. It just entertains. And for me, it does a very fine job of that.

BTW, Zealot: How do you define 'newbies'? (I certainly don't have as many posts as you, but I am anything but a newbie.)
 
Old December 19, 2001, 17:33   #33
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How about an option that says "People who would like the game to be improved into something anywhere near what was promised?" I've spent the whole afternoon staring into the editor trying to fix the screw-ups that the game shipped with. (And you can find the mod in the Files forum, so don't just believe me.) With that lame, barely functional editor. Even though I'm not paid by Firaxis. My eyes hurt already, and my skull feels numb, after endless switching between editor and game to see how those changes play out, and whether the existing AI uses them effectively.

And tomorrow I'll have to go at it again, to copy those changes into the other mod as well. Because the complete lack of scripting means that if you want some stuff to be optional, the only way is to develop two mods in parallel. One with that stuff, and one without. Woppee. Is that great fun, or what?

So don't you dare tell me I'm just getting my post count up.

What have YOU done, except starting Yet Another Redundant Thread (TM) to whine about whiners? Helped a newbie lately? Did anything constructive for the community you claim to love and defend? Well, no. Just started yet another trolling thread to... whine. About whiners. But whine nevertheless. Does it serve any purpose other than to get your post count up and inflate your ego? Well, no.

As for Morganstern, how about rephrasing that to read "Some people think they're so Intelligent if they claim they can live with any problem or screw-up. Admitting that you have ANY problem would automatically mean you're not Intelligent enough to win the game on Deity, and that might lower your ranking. They also believe that posting a tip to help newbies, instead of an insulting 'you crybabies don't deserve to play Civ 3. Go play Power Puff Girls instead' would also imply they're not Intelligent enough." Because that's what half of the fanboy squad attitude seems to be. Trying to intimidate everyone into submission, on the sole unprovable claim that they're the only ones smart enough to win the game, and everyone else is just a dumb whiner.

And, oh, for the "whiners are kiddies" crowd: I'm 31 too. Care to try for another reason why I whine?
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Old December 19, 2001, 17:43   #34
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nothing was promised.

next argument please
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Old December 19, 2001, 18:50   #35
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... unless you count stuff that's still written all over the OFFICIAL www.civ3.com site, and which I've based my purchase on, as a promise. Have a look at their own official list of Key Features on that site, and THEN tell me that nothing was promised. (And if you read some of the other BS on that site, it gets even more funny. No, wait, lemme rephrase that. It gets even LESS funny.)
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Old December 19, 2001, 19:01   #36
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well I'll take your word for what is on that website. I never pay attention to company web sites. They are all about fluff. No real meaningful content.

perhaps I am too cynical. I expected civ3 to be a crappy game. I was pleasantly suprised it was even playable. People seemed to forget problems with SMAC when it came out. This is the same company. So I epected them to put out an inferior product. The days of microprose are gone. It is unreasonable to expect a game the quality of civ2 ever again. Microprose had everything going at the right time. Firaxis is a small gaming company, and I didn't expect them to have the resources to put in things like wonder movies etc (those require a large production capability). I'm not sayin cynicism is a good thing. But I just can't believe the expectations people had for civ3. A lot of time has passed since civ2. And gaming companies have gotten worse in that time for the most part.

And when they announced the deal with civ3 I was skeptical. I just didn't think they could pull it off. Orginally there was talk of an Activision/Firaxis team effort. Boy I couldn't imagine how bad that would have been. The terms in which Firaxis got the rights to civ3 seemed hokey to me. It put them in a bind with what they could do with the product. I doubt they had free reign with the liscence. I think it is time to put the civ series to rest unless they can produce a civilization game without any restrictions at all- including monetary and time restrictions.
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Old December 19, 2001, 19:05   #37
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Oh no the whingers have taken over this thread and are attempting to drown us with spittle and tears...

Somebody send for the FBI...cough... it's too late for me ...gurgle...save the others...

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Old December 19, 2001, 19:32   #38
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In all seriousness I dont like people dismissing others just because their post count is low. Mine is low but I have been playing civ1,2 & now 3 on and off for over 6 years!

I like the game, I think editors for a random game such as civ are nothing more than a nice but useless bonus, how many people use the editor? hardly any.

The reson 'newbies' come to these forums and start 'whingers are losers' threads is because they come here and see a bunch of people complaining like children. Its sick!
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Old December 19, 2001, 19:34   #39
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Whinger? [...shrug...]

The funniest website entry has got to be on Infogrames tips and hints. Build a port, they say. It'll give you an extra tile to stand on!

A port? Is that anything like a whinger?
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Old December 19, 2001, 19:46   #40
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whining is not a bad thing if it accomplishes something. Like getting bad features corrected in a patch.

But in some case (yin26) it accomplishes nothing. He whines about company policy. He never intends to play the game. What's the point of whining about it?

yes I'm going all out on yin26. He does not belong here. I have never said that about a poster. But his arrogance is beyond reproach. It seems to me he says these things about game companies to make himself look knowlegable about the ways of the world. He is all knowing in capitalism and gaming. He may construct good sentences and use good spelling, but that doesn't make him intelligent. After all, he is wasting countless hours on something he never intends to use.
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Old December 19, 2001, 20:29   #41
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Either way, the point that I was trying to make is that some of us "whiners" also do our best to help more people get more enjoyment out of this game. You know, to get their money's worth and have a jolly good time.

While some of the "fans" do... what? Tell people to sell their copy on ebay, and go play Power Puff Girls instead.

Yeah, that has to be helping Firaxis's business. Let's have a lot of cheap games bought on e-bay, instead of from the publisher. And let's have more pissed off buyers, while we're at it. (Insulting someone who's had a problem is NOT the way to make them happy.) That's got to help make sure there'll be a Civ 4.

Yeah, right. With Holy Defenders like those, who needs enemies?

And I still maintain that Yet Another Duplicate Thread (TM) to whine about whiners is no better than Yet Another Duplicate Thread (TM) to whine about the game. In fact it's worse, since normal whine threads often do result in ideas or strategies or whatnot being posted. Threads like this are just flame bait. No more, no less.
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Old December 19, 2001, 21:21   #42
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Quote:
yes I'm going all out on yin26. He does not belong here.
HILARIOUS! Well, bring it on. It's so funny I don't even know where to start! I've said about a million times I'm watching what will happen with the game, and when *I* decide the game is good enough for *ME* to play it, I'll buy it.

And I make no apologies that I took that borrowed boxed beta back to the store. I think you're just mad you actually paid to play a piece of garbage. LOL!
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Old December 19, 2001, 22:44   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dissident
whining is not a bad thing if it accomplishes something.
But in some case (yin26) it accomplishes nothing.
That is untrue.

Word may spread.

Sales may drop.

Firaxis may go bankrupt.

Others might learn the meaning of 'Quality Control'.
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Old December 20, 2001, 01:28   #44
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well you are welcome to give the game another try. But I doubt the game will change much. You can't expect a better ai from a patch. Major gameplay will remain the same.

If the game has no "soul" now, it definately won't after a few patches.

And I do think many game companies will fall on hard times soon. There are too many seperate companies now. Some are going to fold. Firaxis has survived this long because of one name. Quality control is the first cost cutting measure. So I don't expect Firaxis or any other company to learn their "lesson". If only these companies were as good as Blizzard
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Old December 20, 2001, 01:46   #45
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Ah, yes. Well that's another story.

Of course, I think you are basically right. Even the Gold Edition might not be much better than what we have now. I would like to argue against you that a patch can't fix the AI, though. Why not? I would think that now the game is 'in the wild,' Soren (if he is paying close attention) would have a lot to work with.

Then things like stacks and fan mods (made possible by the hopefully released complete editor) could make for a much better sense of speedy turns and deeper immersion.

Not to mention that Firaxis supposedly has an ace up its sleeve for MP ... though safe money says they won't deliver on that. Still, if they were to, come Gold Edition, it might be night and day.

Now, of course I could just do something else until then and not ride Firaxis here on these forums, but:

1) I think Firaxis deserves to be ridden. If they keep releasing games in this fashion, harsh criticism will finally be solved, I suppose, because they won't be solvent anymore. My and other people's messages are just warning calls. It's fun for me to see if they'll react proactively or bury their heads.

2) Since Firaxis likes to play deaf, maybe all this shouting on certain requests WILL make a difference. Can this be done more politely? Sure ... but ask Firaxis why they didn't creat that kind of environment? Frankly, I love to watch people reap what they sowed. At times like that, life seems sweet.

3) I find all of this highly entertaining. It's a textual soap-opera complete with a cast of characters and an uncertain resolution. I reserved my seats here over 2 years ago. I did my part. I'll watch the show till the very last second or until I leave in boredom. That you can count on.

By the way, next time you plan on attacking me, at least get straight what I have said. At least do yourself that favor.
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Old December 20, 2001, 01:57   #46
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well I agree about the soap opera. Why else am on civ3 general instead of creation or strategy? But what did I get wrong? I misunderstood some of the statements you may have said. But I didn't get anything wrong.

But my interest in civ3- general is already waning. Maybe I don't have the attention span of some.

But it will be interesting to see how this plays out. I don't expect to be playing civ3 for a long time. I hear neverwinter nights comes out in Feburary possibly. I might not ever play civ3 after that. But I would like to see how Firaxis handles this situation. I really don't intend on buying any more games from them- but that is mainly due to the games they have planned for the near future. But it may be time to give civ games a rest. I don't want a civ4. At least not in the next decade. Maybe in 15 years they will have better resources.
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Old December 20, 2001, 02:03   #47
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This is so dull. We agree!

I think once I get ahold of EU2 (I'm letting them patch that baby up for a while, too) and MoO3 (again, I'll wait a few months for those patches as well, unless people are actually seeing visions of God in the game or something), I'll pretty much be off of here more.

*Trumpets Sound. Angels Dance.*

I really should be putting more time into Space Empires 4 anway ... yes, the show is running a bit stale nowadays. I keep meaning to give up my seat to those who haven't already memorized acts I - V.
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Old December 20, 2001, 10:30   #48
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Moraelin, you accuse me of making the reverse point when I say that many posters critizing the game are doing so to reinforce their view of their own intelligence. Saying that is not the same as saying that those who don't criticize the game are showing off their intelligence. Such a misapplication of logic would flunk most first year college courses on the subject.

Also, I just don't share your obsession with whether a game such as Civ3 is winnable. Of course any player can win at Civ3 if they just go low enough on the difficulty scale. For my own part, I never played Civ2 at Deity, and have no intention to do so on Civ3; it's a game, and is just not that important to me.

The "whiners" are not "disinvited" to play Civ3-they'll have to make up their own minds on that. Hopefully, they can get over their disappointment and see the entertainment value of the game. Finally, I disavow any ability to intimidate anyone over the Internet.
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Old December 20, 2001, 11:02   #49
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Oh Yin, you won't be going anywhere. . .
You're a Civer for life.
You were on the Alpha Centauri boards when I first started lurking on these things (just after SMAC), and I'm sure that you'll be around for a long time to come.

If I remember correctly, you provided substantial help to Firaxis by constructing a vast list of "things" that could improve the game - and with time SMACX came out (I hope I'm remembering this right, and not crediting you with someone elses hard work).

So no, Yin26 hasn't *just* complained. I believe that his input helped fix some of the many things that were bugged in SMAC(Please correct me if I'm confusing you with someone else Yin!).
My point is that polite criticism can have a positive effect on these games; I've watched it happen.

I find it aggravating that so many things seemed to have been lost that were quite nice in SMACX. (and yes, I'm sick of the "Its Civ 3, its new its different, its not Civ II or SMAC. Get over it." If an idea was good yesterday, its may still be good today.)
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Old December 20, 2001, 15:45   #50
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Morganstern, you must have mis-read me. I'm not saying that YOU said that. I'm saying it myself. Looking at the threads, the exact same thing you say about "whiners" can be said about a lot of fanboys just as well. I've read the "you're just whining because you can't beat the game" standard answer way too often, so don't tell me THOSE people aren't just showing off their "intelligence" and deliberately insulting other people's intelligence.

So dig this: whether I'm intelligent or dumb, doesn't have ANY relevance. Whether I can win the game or not, doesn't have ANY relevance.

What remains is that I've paid for this game based on some false claims on the www.civ3.site. Not based on something out of my imagination, not based on bits and pieces from this board. But what I actually found in the box was nowhere near what was promised. It was a sub-par effort all the way. Everything that was new, was either hyping a minor tweak, or a heavy handed uninspired implementation of what COULD have been a good idea, but ended up bad. And which in turn spawned even more design screw-ups, to cover for the first round of deffects in design, instead of fixing the root problem. (E.g., lobotomizing combat to cover up for the heavy handed resource implementation. And then saving the random seed as a last ditch attempt to cover for the lobotomized combat. And so on.) THAT is my whole point.

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Old December 20, 2001, 17:28   #51
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Originally posted by yin26
Frankly, I love to watch people reap what they sowed. At times like that, life seems sweet.
How sad.

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Old December 20, 2001, 17:57   #52
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GeorgeG: Guilty as charged! Well, it's a waiting game now to see what will be fixed. Korn is doing an excellent job on the bug thread, so that's in good hands. Not much for me to do now except hope things will be good in a few months. I'm guessing the Gold Edition might be worth a run.

Take care,

Yin
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Old December 20, 2001, 23:19   #53
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Oops wrong thread

I thought it said winners so I thought I'd check in.
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Old December 21, 2001, 00:05   #54
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Every consumer has the right to complain about their purchase, if they are unhappy with it. It is the primary method that they have to protect themselves from greed companies. And it is critical to the success of capitalism. If a company produces a defective product or treats its customers poorly, then it should be boycotted until it improves.

Now companies love it when the voice of dissatisfaction is silenced. They can continued to produce poorly made products and thumb their noses. Meanwhile the common rabble (fans) will continue to buy the products and avoid complaints. The companies are worshiped like demigods.

Those of you who have problems with whinners. Next time you buy a defective product or a business treats you rudely, don't blame the company. Blame yourself. You let them do it.

Meanwhile, the whinners will still be fighting for their rights as consumers, trying to get the products and services that they want.
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Old December 21, 2001, 12:13   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by DaShi
Every consumer has the right to complain about their purchase, if they are unhappy with it. It is the primary method that they have to protect themselves from greed companies. And it is critical to the success of capitalism. If a company produces a defective product or treats its customers poorly, then it should be boycotted until it improves.
Do you see Firaxis or Infogrammes listed anywhere on the credits for these boards? This is not the place for the crusade of whining that some people are involved in in. If a consumer has a problem with a product, by all means complain to the manufacturer and/or developer. Go to every gamesite that allows users to review games and post an intelligent review that points out what was so wrong with the game for you. Maybe even, in a reasonble manner, take part in some threads on gameboards in newsgroups constructively discussing what you found to be a problem with the game.

But, the aggression and mindless repetition from many posters accomplishes nothing on this board or anywhere else. Infogrammes, who is the largest culprit with unpolished features and missing features most likely doesn't even read the boards, and they certainly don't have any representatives here. Firaxis has said that they simply killfile anyone who starts making aggressive and personal assaults on the board and I don't even give people that much leeway. So what's being accomplished? The real whiners are venting electrons into a internet blackhole; niether Infogrammes or Firaxis is getting any kind of message, the people who are thinking about buying the game aren't reading a board like this, and those of us who bought the game and are reasonably satisfied are tuning them out after 5th post that repeats the exact same points the poster was ranting about 15 posts earlier.

No one has any right to post here, it's a priviledge afforded to us by some dubious capitalist market mechanics and you should at least put some thought into a message as to whether it's saying anything of value in the thread or if you're just trying to vent largely misplaced frustration and anger.
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Old December 21, 2001, 13:25   #56
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DarkForce, it's not to insult you, but you're whining more or as much as others that you call whiners.

My definition of whiner: someone who'll criticize for the only use of criticizing, normally not using any arguments, and not trying to help resolve the issue. Their posts aren't of any use and are a simple waste of time.

Definition of whiners for alot of people: Anyone who criticize.


So, I guess the List is a whiner thing? Get out of Apolyton if the only thing you wanna do is to say "Oh, I found a strategy, great!" and "Someone wanna discuss about my weekend?". Sure, it's okay too, but not to neglect criticism that isn't useless.
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Old December 21, 2001, 13:28   #57
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Oh I forgot... DarkForce, you poll is totally useless since you're puting options that are ALL the same (whiners are the bad guys is the only option). I'd put this in "whining about whiner" class. Useless and waste of time.
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Old December 21, 2001, 17:47   #58
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I was certainly one of the "whiners" (as you refer to those of us who have voiced their dissatisfaction) in the immediate days after the game's release.
I thought Civ2 was the greatest game there was (just my humble opinion, mind you). It had its share of bugs and problems and was by no means perfect- remember the lousy pathfinding when you used the "go to"? But it was good enough to rise above the flaws- you just didn't care.
So we all had pretty high expectations for Civ3.
What was released was teeming with bugs- I had nuclear subs being sunk by frigates routinely, for example.
But I must give Firaxis some credit. I looked at the list of fixes in the patch and they seemed to cross all of the ones I had off my list. I haven't played it with the patch for myself, so I am reserving judgement, but I do applaud the effort anyway.
The main turn-off I have is the pollution (thought I was gonna say corruption, didn't you). If anybody can tell me how to just turn it OFF, I would go back to playing and enjoy the experience a lot more, I think.
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Old December 22, 2001, 02:00   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by Code Monkey


Do you see Firaxis or Infogrammes listed anywhere on the credits for these boards? This is not the place for the crusade of whining that some people are involved in in. If a consumer has a problem with a product, by all means complain to the manufacturer and/or developer. Go to every gamesite that allows users to review games and post an intelligent review that points out what was so wrong with the game for you. Maybe even, in a reasonble manner, take part in some threads on gameboards in newsgroups constructively discussing what you found to be a problem with the game.
This is where the community is. Firaxis won't host their own forums. They know that they will get complaints, and they don't know how to properly deal with them. Frankly, the only people who can say what can and cannot be posted on these forums are MarkG, DanQ, and the mods. And I doubt that they'll limit the people's right to complain.

Quote:
But, the aggression and mindless repetition from many posters accomplishes nothing on this board or anywhere else.
Well, there are a lot of angry fans. And they have to fight with those who blindly believe that CivIII is the best game ever and try stifle their free speech.

Quote:
Infogrammes, who is the largest culprit with unpolished features and missing features most likely doesn't even read the boards, and they certainly don't have any representatives here.
Passing the buck is a classic tactic.

Quote:
Firaxis has said that they simply killfile anyone who starts making aggressive and personal assaults on the board and I don't even give people that much leeway.
I think that Firaxis has forgotten its place. The consumer should be the position of power. They can killfile all they want. It creates woderful PR disasters. Meanwhile, we can boycott.

Quote:
So what's being accomplished? The real whiners are venting electrons into a internet blackhole; niether Infogrammes or Firaxis is getting any kind of message, the people who are thinking about buying the game aren't reading a board like this, and those of us who bought the game and are reasonably satisfied are tuning them out after 5th post that repeats the exact same points the poster was ranting about 15 posts earlier.
I didn't buy the game because of what I read on this board and others. I expected Firaxis to put out an unfinished game. Hell, I expected it to crash on the 100th turn. Firaxis has already developed a reputation for not caring about the fans. The posts here confirmed enough of my suspicions about the game to convince me that it was a waste of my money. Maybe in a few years, after a few patches, I may buy it. But this forum has saved me a lot of time, money, and frustration.


Quote:
No one has any right to post here, it's a priviledge afforded to us by some dubious capitalist market mechanics and you should at least put some thought into a message as to whether it's saying anything of value in the thread or if you're just trying to vent largely misplaced frustration and anger.
Yes, but they can post whatever they want. It's up to the owners and mods to decide what stays and what gets deleted. So far they have done a great job of creating a forum that allows both sides to express their views about CivIII. Frankly, if people want to vent frustration. So be it. You can complain about it. If you want to sink to insults. Go ahead, but I doubt the moderators will be so forgiving about that.
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Old December 22, 2001, 10:22   #60
CharlesUFarley
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Re: Whiners
Quote:
Originally posted by DarkForce
i read many forums about various games and i must admit that this forum is the one with the most whiners. (the fifa 2002 forum is the only other game forum where i saw so many whiners too.)

i think Civ3 is GREAT

i am tired of reading the threads in this forum everyday in order to find something interesting about the game but instead find endless stupid compaints and childish negative posts. i hope you understand what i want to say. i mean i'm tired of people posting threads with titles such as "Why Civ3 is bad" etc. i think they don't care at all about the game but only want to see if they will break their personal previous record of the replies they had in previous threads they started.

i belive that civ3 is a great game (much better than civ2 or civ1) and most bygs have dissapperaed with the 1.16f patch.

so, about the whiners, my question is:

why do u think they act like this?
First of all. Your vote options suck sh_t, All I see is a bunch of vote-options all bashing the same thing "whiners", but only in your opinion ofcoarse! Second, I don't agree about this whole "whining concept" I'm a unpleased customer of Civ3 as well, I "refunded" my copy. Would you stoop so low as to call me a whiner? So in other words, everyone who "hates" a game, and talks about it, are called whiners? right? Well you and I will have plenty to talk about then. I'll be expecting a reply!

Charles.
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