Whiners - Page 3

CharlesUFarley · December 22, 2001, 10:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Master Marcus
guys, if you're so disappointed, why are you still lurking here? If you think the game is "broken beyond repair" ( whining quote of the year ), go someplace else .... I dunno, go back to Civ II-CTP -SMAC forums, Empire Earth, EU II, MoO3...

Because we enjoy putting it to you! But thats a good question, so why are you here again?

Charles.

CharlesUFarley · December 22, 2001, 10:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Deornwulf
I have a simple challenge for you fanboys, put something besides the rhetoric you accuse the critics of into your posts. All I have seen is whining about the whining. What is it that you specifically like about the game? We critics are getting tired of hearing you merely applaud the game. If I were grading your posts in my class, you would get an "F"

for a lack of details. It's not good enough to just say you like the game. Give reasons and be prepared to defend your viewpoint.

Remember that all of the posts represent personal opinions. There is no logic, right or wrong, superior or inferior to them. It is all a matter of personal taste. You may disagree with the opinions offered by don't ever belittle someone for having their own opinion.

I'm tired of being told that Civ3 is the greatest game ever. That statement is not a fact and never will be. That unqualified statement is a hasty generalization based on opinion. It is faulty reasoning. It would be correct for an individual to say "Civ3 is my favorite game" or "I think Civ3 is a great game." Those are both qualified statements that are not presumptious nor based on faulty reasoning [Inspite of what you may think, Yin

].

And as for all of the posting by whiners and fanboys alike, I have been doing some serious thinking about it. Why am I (and others) willing to spend an hour or two reading and responding to posts? The answer was so obvious that it was easy to overlook. Most of us who play computer games lead "solitary" lives. We may be surrounded by friends and family but it is rare to find one that understands our obsession. Try explaining REX or ICS to your spouse or parent and you'll see what I mean. It's only on Forums like this that we find others that share our passion.

Whether or not we like Civ3 is really irrelevant. Whether or not we even currently play Civ3 or Civ2 is irrelevant. We are here because Turn-Based Strategy games are our passion. We want to share our ideas with others, talk about great games, gripe about pet peeves, and even argue about minor points.

With every post, it matters not that you agree. With every post, it matters not if you like me. With every post, it only matters that you understand............

HERE HERE! That was tear jerking.

You've got my vote.

Charles.

Libertarian · December 22, 2001, 10:38

Quote:

Frankly, the only people who can say what can and cannot be posted on these forums are MarkG, DanQ, and the mods. And I doubt that they'll limit the people's right to complain.

While I agree with most of the points made by what fanboys call whiners, I have a problem with the above point.

We have no rights whatsoever with respect to this site. Not the right to complain. Not any so-called right of "free speech". No right of any kind.

What we have is the privilege of posting that is granted to us by the site owners, who alone have rights with respect to this site. The entire concept of rights is meaningless outside a context of property.

CharlesUFarley · December 22, 2001, 11:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Heliodorus
You bought a game based on a noteworthy and interesting preview? Your fault. You were gullible to the hype of the writer and the developer, and you were oblivious to the fact that what goes on in the design room doesn't necessarily make it into the game. By now, you understand my point in this. Accept personal responsibility for how you ended up buying a product that would ultimately dissatisfy you. Learn from the process through which you came to have an unfulfilling product in your possession and your money in Infogrames' possession. Try not to repeat the process.

I see light in your discussion and a small point that you make. So allow me to put this in perspective. So what your basically saying is, we're naive and somewhat gullible in a sort of child-like innocense, leading towards the game store as if a magnetic force is driving us, only to find that peticular game in the blazing light of god, that we just have to BUY IT, only to realize that we hate it?

Or how about this one, we're just so damn dumb of a species that it's our fault for a flawed human emotion called "trust" ? nah that one was tasteless. How about this one...

Basically your saying that when a car salesman sells us a lemon for a car, and knows it. He's only doing his spiritual duty, and it's our fault because we were so gullible because we had no insight on the matter?

Make some sense man. Which I assure you, you don't! First of all, when a company advertises a product, that information can be exagerated, but it cannot by law be falsified. Otherwisw you have a lawsuit on your hands. Second, how the hell are we supposed to know what kind of game we're getting until we buy it? Think about this! The advertisments are meant to emphasize on the product, and in a sense convince us to purchase, so in a small way you have a point. But the democracy of it is, we have no way to tell, so we *MUST* buy the damn game to see what we're getting. It's not gullability, or stupidity, or anything. It's "we simply don't have a choice". It's false game advertising that promotes "software piracy". Maybe if these game companies like Firaxis for one, stuck to the T when it comes to advertising their products, people would be more willing to support them.

So don't sit there and try to rant off a stupid philosophy like "its your fault for buying a sh_tty game" that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard someone say in these forums! Instead of blaming people for "disliking" a product, why dont you stop and ask them why they "dislike" it to begin with. You people really make no sense sometimes. I refunded my copy of Civ3. And I support the so called "whiners" because so far, they're right!

Charles.

Zachriel · December 22, 2001, 11:12

Quote:

Originally posted by yin26
Settler Diarrhea. Wins every game. Every time. Any level.

So what you are saying is that the AI is beating you in the early game. Try a lower level.

Libertarian · December 22, 2001, 11:18

To be beaten in the early game would be a mercy.

CharlesUFarley · December 22, 2001, 11:24

Quote:

Originally posted by DATarbell
I voted for 'kids'--which isn't entirely accurate, but it was closest to my opinion. Personally, I don't think the whining has anything to do with physical age, but everything to do with maturity. Whining is what immature people do because they believe that the world should revolve around them and they are finding that it doesn't.

It's a game. It doesn't bring meaning to my life. It doesn't fulfill all of my needs. It just entertains. And for me, it does a very fine job of that.

BTW, Zealot: How do you define 'newbies'? (I certainly don't have as many posts as you, but I am anything but a newbie.)

Oh here's another one to make an example of. Gladly!

You came all the way in here to tell all the people who spent $50 a pop on a game, that we're not only imature, but we're wasting our time in these forums? I am sorry, but who are you to dictate what's fullfilling in life and what isn't? Who are you to say what people's needs should be, and what they shouldn't be? So why is it that you're here exactly? I missed your logic. Sounded like you were calling me imature for having a passion for games, and criticising the ones I don't like. I hope not.

Charles.

CharlesUFarley · December 22, 2001, 11:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Surgeon
In all seriousness I dont like people dismissing others just because their post count is low. Mine is low but I have been playing civ1,2 & now 3 on and off for over 6 years!

I like the game, I think editors for a random game such as civ are nothing more than a nice but useless bonus, how many people use the editor? hardly any.

The reson 'newbies' come to these forums and start 'whingers are losers' threads is because they come here and see a bunch of people complaining like children. Its sick!

I've been with Civ since the creation, and I've been an active player and modder since the internet was born. I've been inside and out of Civilization (all three of them) and the only one that came even close to what the people wanted, was Civ2. An editor a "useless bonus" ? Civilization is BORING without an editor. Obviously your easily pleased, just add water. But in reality, the editor is what made civilization a better game! Hence the increase in popularity.

How many people use the editor? Well incase you really wanna know, not that you've ever been near the editor. Thousands, possibly millions of Civ'rs. I personally know hundreds of community players that can't live without the "customization".
PS. Thats "Whiners" not "Whingers".

Charles.

CharlesUFarley · December 22, 2001, 11:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Dissident
whining is not a bad thing if it accomplishes something. Like getting bad features corrected in a patch.

But in some case (yin26) it accomplishes nothing. He whines about company policy. He never intends to play the game. What's the point of whining about it?

yes I'm going all out on yin26. He does not belong here. I have never said that about a poster. But his arrogance is beyond reproach. It seems to me he says these things about game companies to make himself look knowlegable about the ways of the world. He is all knowing in capitalism and gaming. He may construct good sentences and use good spelling, but that doesn't make him intelligent. After all, he is wasting countless hours on something he never intends to use.

Sorry but I am a fan of people like Yin26. And *ALL* of his posts have been nothing short of accurate. He does belong. He's the voice of everything that is wrong with Civ3. Who are you to stop someone from speaking, no one is forcing you to read his posts! Turn your head if you don't like it, otherwise move along!

Charles.

CharlesUFarley · December 22, 2001, 12:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Code Monkey

Do you see Firaxis or Infogrammes listed anywhere on the credits for these boards? This is not the place for the crusade of whining that some people are involved in in. If a consumer has a problem with a product, by all means complain to the manufacturer and/or developer. Go to every gamesite that allows users to review games and post an intelligent review that points out what was so wrong with the game for you. Maybe even, in a reasonble manner, take part in some threads on gameboards in newsgroups constructively discussing what you found to be a problem with the game.

But, the aggression and mindless repetition from many posters accomplishes nothing on this board or anywhere else. Infogrammes, who is the largest culprit with unpolished features and missing features most likely doesn't even read the boards, and they certainly don't have any representatives here. Firaxis has said that they simply killfile anyone who starts making aggressive and personal assaults on the board and I don't even give people that much leeway. So what's being accomplished? The real whiners are venting electrons into a internet blackhole; niether Infogrammes or Firaxis is getting any kind of message, the people who are thinking about buying the game aren't reading a board like this, and those of us who bought the game and are reasonably satisfied are tuning them out after 5th post that repeats the exact same points the poster was ranting about 15 posts earlier.

No one has any right to post here, it's a priviledge afforded to us by some dubious capitalist market mechanics and you should at least put some thought into a message as to whether it's saying anything of value in the thread or if you're just trying to vent largely misplaced frustration and anger.

Man, you are so right. But I guess that's the frustrating energy that fuels us!

Charles.

yin26 · December 22, 2001, 20:22

Quote:

So what you are saying is that the AI is beating you in the early game. Try a lower level.

LOL! No, I'm saying *I* win every game every time using Settler Diarrhea.

SixArmedMan · December 23, 2001, 14:36

That would be believable if you played more than four games... Unless you DID win all four of those games with settler... umm... overkill?

Blackadar1 · December 23, 2001, 15:02

I think Darkforce gets the "biggest whiner of all time" award for starting a thread to whine about folks who don't share his opinion about this game.

Setsuna · December 23, 2001, 16:15

I think he had nothing! else to do Blackadar. (sic)

MORON · December 24, 2001, 07:42

whining is fun

Trifna · December 24, 2001, 13:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Libertarian

While I agree with most of the points made by what fanboys call whiners, I have a problem with the above point.

We have no rights whatsoever with respect to this site. Not the right to complain. Not any so-called right of "free speech". No right of any kind.

What we have is the privilege of posting that is granted to us by the site owners, who alone have rights with respect to this site. The entire concept of rights is meaningless outside a context of property.

To be more exact, you have some rights without property. Such as respect and others... But you also due respect to others. This is when advantages gained from "disrespect" (constitutionally or anything

) do not overpower the advantages.

Boy I'm making some fun... Silly silly me.

Trifna · December 24, 2001, 13:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Blackadar1
I think Darkforce gets the "biggest whiner of all time" award for starting a thread to whine about folks who don't share his opinion about this game.

He's no the worst, but I agree he's not a tiny bit constructive or meaningful to evoluate. It's pure whining...

December 24, 2001, 14:36

Quote:

Originally posted by CharlesUFarley

You came all the way in here to tell all the people who spent $50 a pop on a game, that we're not only imature, but we're wasting our time in these forums? I am sorry, but who are you to dictate what's fullfilling in life and what isn't? Who are you to say what people's needs should be, and what they shouldn't be? So why is it that you're here exactly? I missed your logic. Sounded like you were calling me imature for having a passion for games, and criticising the ones I don't like. I hope not.

Charles.

No. I came in here to state my opinion and to describe my experience. I never stated that you were wasting your time. Nor did I attempt to dictate anything. It's no wonder that you missed my logic. It doesn't even appear that you read what I wrote, or attempted to understand it for what it was: simply my opinion and my experience.

N. Machiavelli · December 24, 2001, 16:49

Quote:

Originally posted by DATarbell

No. I came in here to state my opinion and to describe my experience. I never stated that you were wasting your time. Nor did I attempt to dictate anything. It's no wonder that you missed my logic. It doesn't even appear that you read what I wrote, or attempted to understand it for what it was: simply my opinion and my experience.

Normally when people are insulted and called immature, they get a little defensive. Irrational, I know. When people come forth to offer constructive criticism, you lump them together with what you feel are "immature people" who "believe that the world should revolve around them and they are finding that it doesn't." Oh, but it's only your opinion, so we should all ignore it right? My opinion is that you are an *******. Does the fact that it's only my opinion and personal experience take away any of the sting?

As for this Anti-Whiner Jihaad, if the game is so darn great, in your opinion why are you here complaining about 'us' and not playing it?

CharlesUFarley · December 24, 2001, 17:24

Quote:

Originally posted by DATarbell

No. I came in here to state my opinion and to describe my experience. I never stated that you were wasting your time. Nor did I attempt to dictate anything. It's no wonder that you missed my logic. It doesn't even appear that you read what I wrote, or attempted to understand it for what it was: simply my opinion and my experience.

Oh I see, gotcha. Maybe next time you can watch your wording, it's full of implications.

Charles.

Jodo Kast · December 24, 2001, 19:01

That is funny to see you squirm about an open discussion. It's just fine to make a poll that asks 'What aspect do you hate most about Civ3? And then list Length of Turn or Late Game Empire Management.

Yet if we do the opposite and ask why they are making such RIDICULOUS reasons, this is the response. Length of Turn? Late Game Empire Management?

Yes you Libertarian OF COURSE you don't like the Industrial Age because building your empire is over, it's time to hunker down and manage your Civilization for once.

Length of Turn? There are countless Civs moving, and if you want to play fast, play fast, but no we want EVERYTHING and we aren't making our own MODS cuz why?

I picked Lazy. Ignorance is no excuse for laziness. BTW, if you whine about silly stuff, yes we will think you are 10 years old.

Blackadar1 · December 24, 2001, 19:52

Judo, what you may consider trivial some others would consider crucial. For example, the endgame of Civ III bores me to tears as I feel like a janitor cleaning up pollution from my cities (until I get anti-polution advances) and mopping up the other Civs as they are totally ineffective in using modern units in a combined-forces attack. So I spend hours waiting on my armies to slog across enemy territory (since they can't use roads or rails), wiping out cities and waiting on the UN wonder to be built so I can just get the game over while running countless workers around the map improving cities while hoping that the one coal resource I can find on the map doesn't run out before I get through building my railroads.

Yet you consider complaining about this "silly". Well, many of us don't...glad you think you're getting your money's worth - I (for one) don't. That's not "whining", that a fact.

DarkForce · December 24, 2001, 23:38

Quote:

Originally posted by N. Machiavelli

As for this Anti-Whiner Jihaad, if the game is so darn great, in your opinion why are you here complaining about 'us' and not playing it?

I went to see lord of the rings a week ago.i didn't like it.i thought i wasted my money although it had some gooood fx.
however i didn't join a 'Lord of the rings' club or forum to talk about why i didn't like the movie or complain about the flaws i thought it had. or ask for my money back or try to convince people who liked it that they are wrong. i just don't care about it anymore.

i liked civ3 a lot. so i joined this forum to learn even more things about the game. instead of that i found many many people that joined this forum to talk about why they didn't like the game or complain about the flaws they think it has. or ask for their money back or try to convince people who like it that they are wrong.

i mean i cannot understand this behavior. i'm not complaning about the whiners.i didn't say the game is perfect or flawless and of course everybody has the right to express his opinion whatever that is. i just cannot understand why these people spend so much of their time in this forum for something they don't like!! what do they want to prove or accomplish???

DaShi · December 25, 2001, 03:48

Quote:

Originally posted by DarkForce

I went to see lord of the rings a week ago.i didn't like it.i thought i wasted my money although it had some gooood fx.
however i didn't join a 'Lord of the rings' club or forum to talk about why i didn't like the movie or complain about the flaws i thought it had. or ask for my money back or try to convince people who liked it that they are wrong. i just don't care about it anymore.

i liked civ3 a lot. so i joined this forum to learn even more things about the game. instead of that i found many many people that joined this forum to talk about why they didn't like the game or complain about the flaws they think it has. or ask for their money back or try to convince people who like it that they are wrong.

i mean i cannot understand this behavior. i'm not complaning about the whiners.i didn't say the game is perfect or flawless and of course everybody has the right to express his opinion whatever that is. i just cannot understand why these people spend so much of their time in this forum for something they don't like!! what do they want to prove or accomplish???

Visit a LOTR forum and ask them the same question.

Libertarian · December 25, 2001, 04:24

Quote:

Yes you Libertarian OF COURSE you don't like the Industrial Age because building your empire is over, it's time to hunker down and manage your Civilization for once.

Oh, stop whining.

N. Machiavelli · December 25, 2001, 08:43

Quote:

Originally posted by DarkForce
i mean i cannot understand this behavior. i'm not complaning about the whiners.i didn't say the game is perfect or flawless and of course everybody has the right to express his opinion whatever that is. i just cannot understand why these people spend so much of their time in this forum for something they don't like!! what do they want to prove or accomplish???

The main reason I'm here is the slim chance that someone who has any connection at all with the game development can hear my suggestions. Civ3, currently, is a good game. By itself, eliminating all expectations, all hype, all promises, it scores about a '7.0' . But it has the potential to be so much more. It can move from being a 'good' game, to the 'great' game the majority of folks expected from people who created such industry giants as Alpha Centauri and Civilization II.

What made both games endure for such a long time was their replayability value. This was more than just what was given to us out of the box; we were allowed to customize nearly every miniscule aspect of the game, while still keeping what made the game great in the first place. The play-balance nuances can, and would be, edited out completely by the users if we were given the ability to do so as we were promised. And yes, we were promised. A "more powerful and unprecedented" editor, they continue to claim on their site. Unprecedented, yes; seeing as how none of the other methods of edit where this watered-down. More powerful? No.

The bottom line is that the majority of problems that us 'whiners' are complaining about could have never arisen had we been given the proper tools to change it. The ability to toggle things like 'firepower' and individual unit HP could have solved all the combat gripes. The ability to completely edit current civs, including their portrait and such would also have also have been nice. There are too many things to list here, but they all could have deflected the vast majority of negative comments about the game.

Civilization II lasted for more than half a decade because of it's flexability and replay-value when it came to customization and mod creation. Will Civilization III last beyond next year? In it's current form, I doubt it. Likely, they will release an expansion pack that will give us what we originally expected, but cost us twice as much to get as we originally thought.

Those who enjoy the game as it is currently, good for you. I really wish I could be as content. It reminds me of the original Star Wars and now the Phantom Menace. The originals were great; sure the special effects were hokey by modern standards, but it had a following for a reason. The Phantom Menace, on the other hand, had great 'eye-candy', but everything else sucked; it lacked the depth of the previous movies. To us 'whiners' Civilization III is our Phantom Menace.

Libertarian · December 25, 2001, 08:46

Well said, Mach. Well said.

CharlesUFarley · December 26, 2001, 23:37

Quote:

Originally posted by DarkForce

I went to see lord of the rings a week ago.i didn't like it.i thought i wasted my money although it had some gooood fx.
however i didn't join a 'Lord of the rings' club or forum to talk about why i didn't like the movie or complain about the flaws i thought it had. or ask for my money back or try to convince people who liked it that they are wrong. i just don't care about it anymore.

i liked civ3 a lot. so i joined this forum to learn even more things about the game. instead of that i found many many people that joined this forum to talk about why they didn't like the game or complain about the flaws they think it has. or ask for their money back or try to convince people who like it that they are wrong.

i mean i cannot understand this behavior. i'm not complaning about the whiners.i didn't say the game is perfect or flawless and of course everybody has the right to express his opinion whatever that is. i just cannot understand why these people spend so much of their time in this forum for something they don't like!! what do they want to prove or accomplish???

Becuase we paid for the damn game. And when I pay for something that gives me the right to complain about it, and since Civ3 was no where near what I expected (lacking so many features and so forth) that only fuels my anger. Get it yet? The only people that have no right(s) are the idiots in these forums that "whine" about "whiners". And its so pathetic to see people coming in here calling disatsified customers - "whiners". I would sure like to see if these people would have the nerve to do so in person. Grow up, people have a right to complain, the gaming industry is a billion dollar industry now. Think about it.

Final thought: The only whiners in here, are the people that whine about whiners!

Charles.

yin26 · December 27, 2001, 02:01

Quote:

i mean i cannot understand this behavior.

Yes, but what if movies got patches? And what if movies were released before they were finished shooting? "The last 30 minutes of the movie will be available next Spring in an expansion pack." And imagine paying $50 for the first hour and another $30 for the remaining half hour packaged in the x-pack. Now also imagine you watch this movie while seated at a computer connected directly to a website dedicated to it.

Think of a good analogy at least.

By the way, I walked out of Romeo and Juliet (that crap release with Leonardo) and demanded my money back. I said, "Excuse me, that movie is horrible." The clerk looked at me confused and said: "Why is it out of focus?" I said: "No, it's just horribly bad. Can I have my money back?" I got a ticket to watch another movie there for free.

I then counted 15 people who saw my success and left the movie as well.

TiredEnglishman · January 4, 2002, 20:02

Quote:

Originally posted by yin26
I walked out of Romeo and Juliet (that crap release with Leonardo) and demanded my money back. I said, "Excuse me, that movie is horrible." The clerk looked at me confused and said: "Why is it out of focus?" I said: "No, it's just horribly bad. Can I have my money back?" I got a ticket to watch another movie there for free.

I then counted 15 people who saw my success and left the movie as well.

Wish I would've thought of that when I went to see Final Fantasy: Spirits Within.

T.E.