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Old June 3, 2000, 19:53   #1
Christantine
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Nomads
I think that nomads should be in Civilization III. This would be the "minor civs" everyone talks about. Even though your civilization has passed prehistory and prepared to settle down at the beginning of the game that doesn't mean the entire world was ready to do that. Nomadic civilizations would roam between maybe two areas where they would live off temporary irrigation fields and then move to a different square. They would have a small military force. Some would be warlike to take the place of the anonymous "barbarians" of civ 2 and some might be peaceful. They would be able to research technology but it would be spontaneous because they would have to learn from "experience" since they don't have a professional research team. This would also be influenced by what type of terrain they were camping on at the discovery. Example: At the river that might be in the nomad's present area someone might discover fishing and in the forest someone could discover the ax.

The nomads could hold formal relations with other "civilized" civs and be hired by the civ to do work around the cities and also serve in the military. If the nomadic group works with the civ regularly than the nomads might chose to form a city that is ruled by the parent civ but administered by the ex-nomadic leaders until they blend in completely.

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Old June 3, 2000, 22:54   #2
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Good good I like, a much better improvement over the old barbarians. The gaulic and germanic tribes neighboring rome some were peaceful then engulfed by others later, also tribes changed and communicated like you said specifically the coming of the Huns, although they failed to save rome they defeated that huge 50000 hun army in france. Nomads should be somewhat scared at first of 'civilized' civs thus having them hard to make relations with at first and there should be wars between nomads, and at first many then less and less until non. You could trade them techs and food among other things for use of military units and they could give you a large amount of warriors or something. Nomads should also be able to learn things from sacked cities but only things like bridges if the city was near a river. how many nomads take the time to think about how to construct a bridge? Maybe missionary units after polytheism could turn tribes into regional little cities if we have the little cities.

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Old June 4, 2000, 03:10   #3
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Seems like a pretty good idea, but maybe the nomads would only join a game midway ---> having fellow nomads at the start of game would mean they're just as powerful as you and hence just another civ.

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Old June 4, 2000, 13:56   #4
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Why stop at this? I want to play as nomads, For god's sake! Run my barbarian horde over your pitful civilised cities! Burn, Raze and Pillage!
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Old June 5, 2000, 02:42   #5
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How about religious conversions? Converting a nomadic tribe would bring them into your civ! A Missionary unit, similar to the Cleric unit of CTP, but more powerful. It would target these nomadic tribes, not cities of other civ's.
If you remeber, Colonisation had similar ideeas, with missionaries, preachers and churches.
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Old June 5, 2000, 03:15   #6
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I don't know about being actually able to play as the nomads (thoug I like the idea of having the computer control them), because that's not really civ anymore - having a social engineering structure, economy, etc.

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Old June 6, 2000, 10:56   #7
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quote:

Originally posted by rremus on 06-05-2000 02:42 AM
How about religious conversions? Converting a nomadic tribe would bring them into your civ! A Missionary unit, similar to the Cleric unit of CTP, but more powerful. It would target these nomadic tribes, not cities of other civ's.



I brought up the idea of "conversions" and a missionary unit in another thread and I got very little support for it. I never played CTP so I didn't know that they had a unit, but it seemed that most people were against it. I'm all for it though, as long as religion is in Civ 3. I'd like to debate the missionary unit more because I believe religion and missionaries played a great role in history, especially westernization in the far and middle east.


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Old June 6, 2000, 19:21   #8
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We need missionaries let's not forget how Christianity turned all those islands in the south pacific from their life of sin into a life with god. Ok Rome had missionaries um every religion on earth, well maybe not buddhism, has missionaries we need missionaries. Spread the word of Allah, Praise Allah, Praise Allah, join Iraq, join Iraq, Praise Allah, Praise Allah.

Religion menu, maybe make it like a book or something to give Civ3 some little touches, you could dispatch missionaries, there is an endless supply of missionaries for your national religion. Note you cannot dispatch missionaries if you have not chosen a national religion. They could be dispatched by the religions themselves though, if there was a need like heretics on the border in the mountains and under the water. You can kill missionaries from other countries, but you don't want to kill missionaries from the big religion in your country or if your people like tolerance towards new ideas and religions. Missionaries are the cheapest{free} way to convert nomads and barbarians to your civilization. The only way cities should be converted is if there is a national religion and no tolerance towards others. So if the religion endorces is Par4ism but Christantinianity is allowed then the people might move to your civ but because everything is allowed the entire city isn't going to move just because you are Par4ism. Then again Orangism might come and convert all our butts Don't forget to visit HappyLand

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Old June 7, 2000, 02:23   #9
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quote:

Originally posted by OrangeSfwr on 06-06-2000 10:56 AM
I never played CTP so I didn't know that they had a unit

In CTP, the Cleric is a 'special' unit that allow you to convert a city. A converted city is not joining your civ, but it starts paying to your tresury a lot of gold, each turn. You need a certain type of government (Theocracy) in order to produce Clerics.
I love in CTP the fact that you can fight, through the special units, religious/economic 'wars', without ever declaring formal war.
Ok, back to the topic.
I think the nomadic tribes must be integrated with the concept of migration. They would appear out of nowhere, like the existing barbarian units, and invade river valleys and other good terrain spots.
Also, leaders would randomly appear and join these tribes in mighty armyes. Think at Jenghiz Khan.
What do you think?
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Old June 7, 2000, 13:43   #10
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nomads = awesome idea.

of course, the word "civilization" etymologically implies "city building," but a truly universal model of human history would reflect the fact that cities are just one way that people have chosen to live together.

other ways might include "true nomadism" (hunter gatherers), "transhumance" (following migration patterns of flocks or herds), "piracy" or "barbarianism" (living parasitically off of settlements), "horticultural settlement" (i.e. slash-and-burn agriculture, moving every couple of years to a new local when the soil is exhausted).

i guess the assumption in Civ and Civ II is that these stages of development are prior to "civilization" (city building). But the historical records suggests this is not so; at least in the ancient Near East and Mediterranean (i don't know enough about anywhere else) settled people and nomadic (particularly pastoralist) people had a sort of symbiotic relationship. the sometimes "mysterious disappearance" of settlements from the archaeological record can often be explained by the hypothesis that the people living there, for whatever reason, reverted to a more nomadic way of life.

even in the modern period, there are numerous refugee situations that resemble nomadism in some ways.

would it be possible for this to be reflected in civ?? any idears?
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Old June 7, 2000, 15:30   #11
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Here is my idea on how this could fit together:

the player would start as the leader of a 'tribe' instead of a 'civilization'. Your 'tribe' would be represented by a nomad unit similar to a settler unit (the nomad unit would have slightly better attack/def than a settler, and could use ressources from tile it is currently on in a limited way). When the player found a good spot and wanted to settle down, the nomad unit could build a city just like a settler unit does.
A 'tribe' does not have the settler unit so they couldn't build more than one city.(the one city could grow as big as possible though, do research etc, there would be no immediate restrictions there). As a 'tribe', the only way to expand is to get other 'tribes' (through war or diplomacy) to join you under your rule. Then you would have a several 'tribes' unified under the player's rule.

Here is where 'civilizations' come in:

When a 'tribe' (or union of tribes) discover "currency", "writing", " code of laws" and "masonry", then they would become a 'civilization'. (this would encourage players to try to unify tribes together since a group of tribes would reach civilization status quicker than a tribe trying to do it on its own)

The advantage of being a 'civilization' would be the right to build more cities. In other words, 'civilizations' would get the settler unit and thus be allowed to build additional cities.


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Old June 7, 2000, 16:45   #12
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I like the tribe concept.

The tribe unit should grow slowly, and when it reaches a certain poplulation, it splits into two tribes. These two tribes have a chance of being friends or foes. If friends, you now have control of two tribes. If not, you have an instant enemy. The younger prince took half the tribe with him, but wants to rule the whole at any price...

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Old June 8, 2000, 00:11   #13
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Cool! I'd like to see nomads.

Maybe in the beginning of the game, there will be different types of advances along with the scientific advances. Farming techniques, mining techniques, tools, hunting, survival in different environments, building, things like these you could learn simply by living in a certain area. All civs would start out as nomadic tribes, including you, and you'd have the choice of staying nomadic or settling down after you have mastered these. Remember, when people discovered how to build things, they did not hire researchers. They learned from experience.

Nomads would not exactly have "cities." Instead, they would have villages of little huts that they could move around if they wanted to.

Well, thats just my $0.02. Probably isn't that good, but I'm posting it anyway.

I just hope that Firaxis includes this along with many of the other things that we've been asking for.
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Old June 8, 2000, 00:39   #14
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Yeah, this would be an absolutely great addition to civ.

I also read in some other thread and idea about making it possible to take your entire civ and move it, turning all the cities into settlers and armies. This could make you extremely powerful in ancient times compared to the other civs as you had put your entire civ into making a huge army. This should therefor make it possible for smaller civs to turn themselves into nomads and attack very large ones, and have a good chance of winning. Of cause if you lost the war you would be completely annihilated, and even if you conquored a foreign civ it should, if it's population was remarkably larger than yours have a very, very high chance of revolting at some point, and so taking back all or most of the cities you had conquored from them.

There should both be civs that started out as nomads and ones that chose to leave their homeland and turn themselves into such.

Even though several barbarian tribes managed to conquor Rome none of them ever kept it for more than a few years.
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Old June 8, 2000, 02:12   #15
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quote:

Originally posted by rremus on 06-07-2000 02:23 AM
They would appear out of nowhere, like the existing barbarian units, and invade river valleys and other good terrain spots.


If we combine this with the posting in the "Space Age" thread, in the 'space' age the role of these nomads could be taken by aliens?
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Old June 8, 2000, 06:39   #16
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I sorta though that nomads would live off a small area. You know, one with borders, but without cities. All resources of this area would be pooled together to determine how much nomads live in there. These would of course be obstacles to aspiring colonists, as borders of these areas wouldn't move, so military might would have to be used. This means putting stack of units to nomads' territory and declaring war - this means all able nomads hop on their horses, or whatever they have, and attack your stack. Victory means your soldiers can start gleeful campaign of extermination and slavery, resulting to plunder, slaves and you getting area. In more civilized times, this'd be atrocity, so next best option would be setting up reservation for them.

Of course, war's not only thing you can do. Explorers can set up trading posts which trade with nomads. Explorers can also do the old Peter Minuit trick and try to buy land - however, if you try this many times, nomads might get angry at you. Also, if you get good relations enough, you might invite nomads to set up a city and join your civilization - this leads to you getting that city, but they'll be their own ethnic group, possibly leading to trouble later.
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Old June 8, 2000, 11:39   #17
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quote:

Originally posted by The diplomat on 06-07-2000 03:30 PM
the player would start as the leader of a 'tribe' instead of a 'civilization'. Your 'tribe' would be represented by a nomad unit similar to a settler unit (the nomad unit would have slightly better attack/def than a settler, and could use ressources from tile it is currently on in a limited way). When the player found a good spot and wanted to settle down, the nomad unit could build a city just like a settler unit does.



quote:

Originally posted by Spekter@Home on 6-7, 2000 16:45
The tribe unit should grow slowly, and when it reaches a certain poplulation, it splits into two tribes. These two tribes have a chance of being friends or foes.



Ok, combining these two suggestions, here's my idea:

Nomad units behave like mobile cities. That is, they can move like a settler (1 mp), but instead of building cities, they "encamp" in a particular area. An encampment would like sort of like the city screen, but instead of have 21-spaces of resources, it would have only eight (the one it's on and each adjacent tile), and would provide no defensive bonuses. But they generate resources and can build units and improvements just like normal cities. Naturally, the type of improvements they could build would be different and more limited; you can't lug a granary around with you! But nomadic groups often carry various types of tents and other improvements with them, and build semipermanent structures. Of course, when the nomads move on, for whatever reason, they lose these improvements.

Now, like cities, nomads collect resources, and thus experience population growth. But instead of the nomadic unit increasing in size when it fills up the grain-bar, it spawns another nomadic unit. Maybe we could use Spekter's idea and have there be a chance that the newly-spawned unit is a barb rather than one of yours. My only reservation is that I would worry that someone could get knocked out of the game by their own barb nomad right at the beginning.

Another question: how to make the transition from nomadic to settled life? Part of the problem as I see it is that no one has really figured out what caused the rise of agriculture to begin with. So we're a little in the dark, trying to model something we don't fully understand (but I guess you could say that about lots of stuff in civ!!) Here's my suggestion:

You begin the game with 1 nomad unit, and the civilization advance "Hunting and Gathering." This allows your unit to derive resources from resource squares only. Thus you want to park your nomad unit near one of these. When pop growth causes it to spawn, you'll have to send the next nomad group in search of different resource squares.

For enhanced realism, resources should be depleted after a period of time. Would this wreak too much havoc with the Civ engine??

The next step for your hapless nomads would be a civilization advance called "Horticulture." This represents primitive slash-and-burn agriculture. With this, your nomads would be able to derive resources from grassland and plains squares (this is predicated on the assumption that the terrain types don't change in Civ-III) only. But you still wouldn't be able to produce settlers.

Finally, with the advent of "Agriculture," your nomad unit would be able to "build" a settler. To do this, you would have to be able to find the resources. And since a settler requires 1 grain to survive, your nomad unit would basically just turn into that settler.

These are just thoughts... any other suggestions?
[This message has been edited by abuzayd (edited June 08, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by abuzayd (edited June 08, 2000).]
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Old June 9, 2000, 04:56   #18
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Abuzayd, you're suggestions are good! Because it'll only affect the very beginning of the game, implementing it won't destablise gameplay too much.

However, there should be an option to skip all the nomad stuff (I'm not suggesting it's bad or anything) and go straight to the settler unit ala normal Civ.

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Old June 10, 2000, 22:26   #19
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Christantine the Great, can I call you CtG its so much easier to type. I think this model has gone about as far as it can, and I love it!! But no depletable resources, or at least let me turn it off. I don't want to run out of bauxite to make aluminum to make airplanes for my airforce right in the middle of a war or if my nomad Civ has filled up the fruitful valley and will die because we wasted all the good soil.

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Old June 11, 2000, 00:59   #20
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This is my new UserName.

I like everybody's suggestions. Sorry but I won't be able to send alot of feedback for a while due to technical reasons. Sry. Keep "Nomad" alive for me while I am gone!!


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Old June 11, 2000, 10:38   #21
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Ultrasonix:
quote:


However, there should be an option to skip all the nomad stuff (I'm not suggesting it's bad or anything) and go straight to the settler unit ala normal Civ.



I totally agree, especially for creating scenarios.

Par4:
quote:


But no depletable resources, or at least let me turn it off. I don't want to run out of bauxite to make aluminum to make airplanes for my airforce right in the middle of a war or if my nomad Civ has filled up the fruitful valley and will die because we wasted all the good soil.



Depletable resources definitely opens up a big can of worms, and would probably end up requiring a lot of micromanagement making the game less fun to play... the reason I brought it up was because nomads have to have a reason for moving around rather than staying in one place. I guess you could have some sort of depletion model that disappears with the rise of agricultute in the "Neolithic revolution," but that's probably too complicated as well. Any ideas??

Another thought -- someone in the "Ultimate ICS thread" proposed that there should be different sizes of cities: villages, towns, and cities, with different capabilities (see the thread). Could the nomad model be incorporated into this?

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Old July 11, 2000, 19:34   #22
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bump

Krakenkiller: This is the thread that I was talking about. Tell us what you think.


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Old July 12, 2000, 15:21   #23
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This is from Diodorus Sicilius from last year. I thought it should be posted here along with the other ideas:

quote:

Nomadic Civilizations:
I posted a bit on this some time ago, now it's time to elaborate (okay, it's 'way past time to elaborate...)
If you start with Domestication but not Agriculture (possible Starting Advances/Techs), or if you start with Agriculture but in terrain that isn't suitable (desert without Irrigation Tech), or if you just feel snarkey, you can choose to start by forming a Tribal Unit and becoming Nomadic instead of starting a City and becoming a Settled Civilization (Note: cities should not be formable without agriculture: in game terms, with 10,000 a base figure, even Jericho the first 'city' was about 90% too small for the game!).
Characteristics of a Nomadic Civ:
Population growth will be very low, because they produce less food from herding and hunting than farmers can from farming. Their 'user' icon (if a CtP type is used) would not be a farmer, but perhaps a shepherd with a sheep or a herdsman on foot with a cow, and food production/tile would be about 2/3 to 1/2 (just above subsistance) of the farmers'.
On the other hand, the nomadic civ receives bonuses in Military (the entire population has a lifestyle related to war), Nationalism or Patriotism (whichever term you want to use) because they tend to be a very cohesive group and suspicious/contemptuous of outsiders, and Trade. They will not have a bonus, and possibly a minus, in research, but they can act as Middlemen diffusing or spreading advances from one civilization to another, just as they can act as middlemen trading goods between civilizations they contact.
The Tribal Unit is the nomadic 'city'. It can move, but very slowly (1 tile/turn maximum, with at least a 1 turn stop between to get more food). The Tribal Unit automatically generates a defending military unit when it is formed, since all members of the tribe can fight and their life style gives them some base military skill.The unit will be the basic Warrior at first, later the best Foot Unit the Nomads can build. The Tribal Unit can be 'improved' with the following equivalents to City Improvements:
City Wall
Tribal: Wagon Burgh - has about 1/2 the effect of the city wall, but moves with the Tribe
Market
Tribal: Bazaar - has 50% more effect than Market, because traders from all over meet and do business there.
Library
Tribal: Shaman's Hut - has about 25% less effect than the Library
Barracks
Tribal: Unneeded - all Nomad units are Veterans, or, if a SMAC-system is used, one or two steps higher in Morale than the usual 'green' city folk.
Granary
Tribal: Storage Pits - same effect as Granary, but also moves with the Tribe
Nomadic Units not only start at higher morale, they have a Reconnaissance ability, represented by a 2-tile vision range. In addition, nomadic horse mounted units have more speed than regular civ mounted units. Assuming a light horseman/horse archer for a regular civilization has a speed of 5, the nomad speed would be 6 (this would also be true of Barbarian cavalry). Nomadic units could be hired by regular civs. The hired units would become the hiring civ's color, retain their nomadic characteristics, and could be used by the hiring civ for any purpose EXCEPT attacking the originating nomads! After X (actual number would vary) turns in foreign service, the nomadic unit would lose its nomad characteristics: the vision range, the extra speed. The cost of hiring the units would be subject to negotiation between players/civs, but would nromally be a per turn fee paid to the nomadic or hiree civ directly every turn. Any turn the fee is not paid the hired unit either reverts to nomad colors or possibly revolts and turns Barbarian.
In addition, there is one Advance peculiar to the Nomads: the Composite Recurved Bow, made from glued sinew, horn, and bone. If ordinary bowmen or horse archers have a Range Factor of 1 and Short Range, the Composite Bowmen (foot or mounted) would have a Range Factor of 2 and Medium Range (Long Range is strictly modern Artillery and Rockets).Only by hiring Nomad (or Barbarian) units with Composite Bows can a 'civilized' state get their benefit.
If a Nomadic civ conquers a city, it can incorporate the city into its civ: the ancient Scythians had several 'settled' cities in the Crimea to produce crops they couldn't raise while roaming. The nomads can also move a Tribal Unit into a city or a suitable city location and 'settle down', turning it into a city (or a bigger city) and becoming a regular civ. Regular Cities that are part of a Nomadic Civ are treated as regular cities in all respects: they can build city-type Improvements and lose their 'automatic' tribal defender unit. Tribal Improvements convert as follows when a Tribe settled down:
Wagon Burgh: is lost
Bazaar: becomes a Market
Shaman's Hut: is lost
Storage Pits: becomes a Granary
The civ as a whole can still form 'nomad' units with nomad characteristics in its Tribal Units, but only regular civ units in its Cities.

All of this means that the Nomadic Civ is a viable alternative play for gamers in the first 1/4 to 1/3 of the game. They get less and less viable as Gunpowder and advanced Improvements appear in other civs, but in the ancient and medieval time periods or eras they are a real contender both militarily and economically for the gamer who likes to play conquest or trading games. It also provides a chance for the gamer who's starting position sucks: if your starting terrain has a lot of desert, no rivers, no good terrain resource icons, etc, just start as a Tribe of Nomads and start moving to the good terrain, occasionally trading with or whacking other civs along the way!
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Old July 18, 2000, 21:36   #24
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Someone was talking about nomads so I thought I would revive this thread that I made a month ago.

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Old July 30, 2000, 13:18   #25
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Hmmm... Nomads. Perhaps they should, in the early game, when one of your cities goes into revolt, when 2 or 3 people angry. They should revert to the Nomad society with only one warrior of the times.; they killed all the millitary supporters of the King/President/Dictator.
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