Synopsis of 21 dec chat?

CapTVK · December 21, 2001, 17:27

Does anyone have a quick synopsis of what was discussed during this chat? I've seem to have missed it. Only thing I heared is that scenarios are certain (how and when?)

Anyone here who was there?

Jodo Kast · December 21, 2001, 17:37

Please post the log file from this discussion.

I want to read everything!! It will eventually be released, so the first person 'wins'.

David Murray · December 21, 2001, 19:06

Personal highlights of mine include:

1. Fundamentalism government, plant nuclear weapon and plant disease espionage missions were all removed at the last moment by executive order because of the September 11 attacks

2. Trading units was removed because of AI exploit

Hmm...what else? Can't remember, I didn't pay much attention to anything else.

Oh yeah...

3. Firaxis are working on lots of new features for the editor.

Some good news, at least.

Redstar · December 21, 2001, 20:28

"1. Fundamentalism government, plant nuclear weapon and plant disease espionage missions were all removed at the last moment by executive order because of the September 11 attacks "

it only made sense cause everything became so acutely sensitive.
A movie, which showed the NY skyline BEFORE sep 11, was shelved cause of sep 11.

as i said earlier tho this feature set, in paticular, is just too darn close to reality. In another 20 years you can put it back in.

Xentropy · December 21, 2001, 21:01

Quote:

Originally posted by David Murray
1. Fundamentalism government, plant nuclear weapon and plant disease espionage missions were all removed at the last moment by executive order because of the September 11 attacks

Omg I hope you're joking. That is SO lame. I hope they put them back in in a patch, maybe with some ini file pref. Something like IAmAPansyThatCantHandleAGameHavingTerrorism=1 that those of us who have the mental capacity to separate games from reality can set to 0 :P

Also hope they put unit trading back in for multiplayer. Allow unit trading with players, just not AIs or something. >shrugs<

Harlan · December 22, 2001, 00:04

I can't believe the part about Fundamentalism is true, because I distinctly recall hearing that Fundamentalism wasn't in the game long before Sept. 11th. Can anyone double check some of those old news leaks?

Any specifics on what editing features are being worked on, and when we can start to actually use them?

MarkG · December 22, 2001, 03:06

the log will be posted on sunday

Gramphos · December 22, 2001, 03:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Harlan
I can't believe the part about Fundamentalism is true, because I distinctly recall hearing that Fundamentalism wasn't in the game long before Sept. 11th. Can anyone double check some of those old news leaks?

I also remember that from long ago, but Apolyton don't go that far back any more. (Tried to search)

David Murray · December 22, 2001, 12:16

Well, Jeff admitted that fundamentalism and terrorist espionage missions were removed because Jeff Briggs ordered it "at the last minute" and when someone asked if it was because of Sep. 11, he said "yep".

And I sincerely hope it doesn't take 20 years before those things are added back it! Like I've said before, you can't make things better by forgetting that they ever existed! And I'm sure the vicims of the atrocities on Sept. 11th have better things to think about than whether or not Civ3 has fundamentalism in it, wouldn't you agree?

Anyway, all will become clear on Sunday when the log is released.

Kolyana · December 22, 2001, 12:47

You guys have to remember - regarding the Sept 11th & Fundamentalism thing - that whilst you may be able to distinctly differentiate between a game and reallife, many non-gamers out there can't.

Unfortunately, we live in a society in which the minority often rules. To coin a stereo type: The church going women libbers politically correct brigade that have little else to do other than make other peoples lives a misery.

If Firaxis left this sort of stuff in the game, you can bet your bottom dollar that some bored soccer mom with a desire to be noticed, will boost her flagging ego with a crusade against the evil gaming community.

And, unfortunately, far too many idiots would listen.

I hate this about society, but it happens and it's unavoidable. They made the right decision from a business point of view.

David Murray · December 22, 2001, 13:16

Kolyana

From what I've seen with games like Grand Thef Auto, that kind of attention tends to boost sales, if it does anything! And to be honest I don't think many moms would be outraged by their children using a fundamentalist government or planting nukes in their Civ3 game (it's not like we're talking blood and guts FPS here).

Anyway, maybe Firaxis will let us work round these problems by letting us add them in "by the back door" through the editor. *crosses fingers*

Kolyana · December 22, 2001, 13:35

David, I couldn't agree more ... but i'm sure most companies (or those that like to play it 'safe') don't like the adverse attention.

Don't get me wrong, I'm the opposite of these so called 'do-gooders'. After an age of playing AD&D and just about every violent game I can get my hands on, I'm fully aware that I'll never be a soccer mom type.

But I do understand why Firaxis would remove those particular parts of the game. I also think that it is respectful of those who died.

Now, if a future editor then allows individuals to put those back into the game, fair enough ... but globally they did a good thing.

barefootbadass · December 22, 2001, 23:55

I don't think having fundamentalism in the game would have been disrespectful to those who died. It's part of the game in the last incarnation and removing it took a lot out of it. Its the single biggest thing missing that I expected to be in the game and I find it ridiculous that it is not.

I don't blame firaxis, it was a decision that was hastily made because infogrames wanted them to get it out unfinished so they could hit the die hard fans with a charge for the game a second time when MP comes out. Hopefully it will be put back in by then.

Until then we'll have to mod some kind of government in its place.

Skanky Burns · December 23, 2001, 03:06

It was a timing thing. Putting a game out so soon where you could almost replay that event would be a very bad idea, and backlash could very well have killed most of civs market share.

Put the same thing in now, not many people would blink an eye.

But anyway, we can add our own types of governments.

Skanky Burns · December 23, 2001, 04:13

Quote:

Originally posted by MarkG
the log will be posted on sunday

Oh, and where is the log then???
Its 7 pm Sunday... still waiting

Its annoying being in Australia, having to wait for the rest of the world to catch up

Libertarian · December 23, 2001, 05:57

Maybe you could do a tweak in the editor.

David Murray · December 23, 2001, 10:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Skanky Burns
It was a timing thing. Putting a game out so soon where you could almost replay that event would be a very bad idea, and backlash could very well have killed most of civs market share.

Put the same thing in now, not many people would blink an eye.

But anyway, we can add our own types of governments.

Can you tell me how, using the editor, to recreate the old Fundamentalism attributes of all science output being reduced by half and all unhappiness being eliminated? Or even, how to make all religious cultural improvements have extra affect under fundamentalism? I don't even know how to create a fundamentalist unit and tie it to a particular government type (although I'm sure that's the bit that is possible). The editor doesn't have such flexibility. All we can do with the editor is create different flavours of government that aren't really all that different. Plus there's all the effort of having to playtest, writing great library entries (if you can be bothered), etc.

I'd like Firaxis to make the editor much more flexible for adding new units and governments.

Also, there is no way, using the editor in its current shape, to add new espionage missions. I would like to be able to plant nukes and plant disease again (I used those tactics a lot in Civ2).

Maybe once these elements of civilization building can be added back in, I will finally be able to be at peace with my copy of Civ3....

CapTVK · December 23, 2001, 15:20

Well sunday is long gone in Australia and New Zealand and Europe only has a few hours left. The clock is ticking....tick...tick...tick. Better get a move on MarkG!

That reply about removing fundamentalism seems like an attempt at corporate revisionism. I recall fundy being removed from the game because it was too unbalancing in the game.
Still, in Civ2 I wouldn't call it unbalanced at all, it was the only government form that could keep up with demo and WLTPD in the endgame. Plus this government form offered some good possibilities for Civ2 scenariomakers. Then again, the whole system was revised in Civ3 so that point was probably moot.

But why did they say ('state') that fundy was removed after september? Was fundy still in at the time or was it a simple corporate public PR attempt to score some points?

Civ2 is also property of Infogrames and has fundamentalism as a government form. It's still on sale in many stores as a budget title. Why wasn't that pulled from the shelves? Sorry Infogrames, but no copouts!

-If fundy was indeed removed at the last moment it should be released or activated in a patch-

TechWins · December 23, 2001, 16:54

I, too, read somewhere before that Fundy was going to be taken out, and this was way before Sept. 11, possibly sometime in April or May.

Jeff may be saying that the attacks of Sept 11 was the real reason for Fundy being left out, that way they have an excuse for leaving Fundy out.

Zanzin · December 23, 2001, 19:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Skanky Burns
It was a timing thing. Putting a game out so soon where you could almost replay that event would be a very bad idea, and backlash could very well have killed most of civs market share.

Exactly. Civ3 would have faced the same kind of nagativity that MS Flight Simulator did when word got around that you could recreate exactly what the terrorists did by flying a plane into a building etc etc.

David Murray · December 23, 2001, 19:48

Quote:

Exactly. Civ3 would have faced the same kind of nagativity that MS Flight Simulator did when word got around that you could recreate exactly what the terrorists did by flying a plane into a building etc etc.

Yeah, terrible, isn't it?

I mean, it's abhorrent that in a flight sim it's possible to crash into buildings isn't it? I bet there will be someone who plays the game and signs up for membership of Al-Qaida after seeing how easy it is to fly into buildings! Microsoft should be ashamed.

Immortal Wombat · December 23, 2001, 19:49

Its monday in Greece, lets hope Dan is posting the transcript...

23:50 GMT

Skanky Burns · December 24, 2001, 06:58

Monday 10pm in Australia... still no log...
Was the chat that long???

RE: Adding Fundy

Ill admit that adding Fundy as per Civ2's would be near impossible with the current editor. But we can still add a form of the Fundy gov.

The editor should be much improved by the next patch. Maybe they mentioned something about it in the chat....
Can anyone chec... oh yeah....

Libertarian · December 24, 2001, 07:11

With respect to the editor, there were clues that they've focused on it. Coy remarks like, "you just wait!" and such.

MarkG · December 24, 2001, 13:19

it's christmas, show some mercy... and some patience!

Zealot · December 24, 2001, 13:45

Quote:

Originally posted by MarkG
it's christmas, show some mercy... and some patience!

And for those who don't commemorate christmas?

Sorry Markos, but...

Libertarian · December 24, 2001, 14:13

Some empathy maybe?

Steve Clark · December 24, 2001, 14:29

Markos said 'patience'?

Around here?

player1 · December 24, 2001, 14:32

IT IS NOT TRUE.
FUND. WAS REMOVED MUCH BEFORE.

You just need to find those old reviews from April or March.

But, I think that poisoning a city IS REMOVED because of 11. Sep.
(you can still find it in manual)

P.S.
Why people have so short memory?

MarkG · December 24, 2001, 15:13

http://apolyton.net/misc/chat/civ3/c...s-chat-1.shtml