Yet Another Unit Idea...

[Seeker]

During world war II, a little known unit of Italian frogmen (similar to SEALs of today) were perhaps the most effective part of the Italian navy 1941-42. They would sink ships, launch amphibious commando raids from the water, lay mines, conduct recon, ect. by travelling great distances underwater on 'torpedos' and using a network of cached air tubes.

A SEAL or frogman type unit would be an interesting watery unit.

[Theben]

Maybe an option for unit construction in a workshop.

[Napoleon I]

A Seal unit of some sort would be an interesting unit to implement. They have been used by different nations through history such as the US Navy Seals, or a similar unit of amphibian soldiers in the former KGB.

They could be a modern unit that would become available with a discovery of some advanced military tech such as "Advanced Battle Tactics"

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Napoleon I

[Evil Capitalist]

I remember reading about SOE (Special operations executive) units from WW2 who did the same for Britain. However everyone has tanks or artillery, few have these teams- the Germans didn't and neither did the Russians (to my knowledge).

[Napoleon I]

The Russians had special amphibious units starting I believe in the late 50's.

I think that the Israelies had something of the sort also, but I could be wrong on that one.

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Napoleon I

[Evil Capitalist]

The Russians had an amphibious tank, the PT76, so it would make sense.

[Doomer]

I think the idea of a SEAL unit is great considering that more military tactics should be incorporated in the game. The current role of the Spy in the game can be devided. In CIV 3 spies should only be used for bribing, investigating and stealing tech. A SEAL unit can be used in more democratic goverments to conduct special ops. Meaning that you would have to send a SEAL unit into a city before making the actual assault on the city.

The SEAL unit can destroy a radar site, city wall or any other defence to make your assault with ground and/or air units more succesfull.

These units should differ with the different goverment types. Like a fundamentalistic goverment cannot have a SEAL unit. The can have terrorist unit or something.

BTW such a unit would take longer to build considering the skills they have. You should be a able to use them from land, sea and air.

[This message has been edited by Doomer (edited August 09, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Doomer (edited August 09, 2000).]

[Adm.Naismith]

Seeker, Italian sub forces made heroic missions, still very little relevant (on the whole War II scenario).

I agree with Theben that some Special Operation attribute can find its place on a Unit workshop, but to avoid any temptation to build an army of Special Forces it must have some limits (expensive production cost? expensive support cost? limits to some percent of whole regular army?)

Evil capitalist, I don't think that Special forces were reserved to some countries. They can have different names (ehi Doomer, the other side always call this forces terrorists, you know ), equipmnent and training, but they have similar targets.

(BTW the USSR special forces you mentioned were the Spetnatz, if I spell it correctly)

I agree we should divide diplomat/spy rules with Special Forces: proper espionage mission must find its place on the "espionage screen" (see related thread), where sabotage missions and ability can be passed to Special Forces units.

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

[Evil Capitalist]

There is a big difference between the spetanzes, Royal Marines, etc. of the world and the Spetsnaz alphas, SEALs, SASs etc.
My solution is one regiment of commando style units (I know this isn't technically acurate, for example Britain has the SAS and SBS, but large scale incursions take time to plan, and the rest could be done by spys) who can carry out a large raid then return to base. They would then have to wait a turn and could attack again. They would have a new order 'insert', like paradrop except the range is increased by sea, if your navy is strong enough (no German special forces landing in Essex in WW2). Also you could have 1 unit of crack infantry for every e.g.10 others. They could be designated paratroop and marine at the start, and would have raised attack, move and defense. The more good units you have (expensive marines, not riflemen) the better they are, to give an incentive to upgrade.

[DarkCloud]

Good idea, the SEAL unit could be a cross between a Spy/Diplomat/ and Tanya from Red Alert.

[phunny pharmer]

Hmm...Tanya from Red Alert That was a fun multiplay!

[Evil Capitalist]

Well how realistic is it having a 20 man squad destroy a brigade?

[Adm.Naismith]

quote: how realistic is it having a 20 man squad destroy a brigade?

On open field? None, I agree.

In night operations, with good use of explosives on the brigade at camp? A lot more.

But don't use SEAL units as a bunch of superwarriors, use them to sabotage city buildings, destroy undefended structure deep in enemy territory, mine roads and RR to slow down and damage reinforcements (this will be nice, uh? ).

I don't bother to do the math about hit points, armour point, movement point, ZOC free etc. Lot of people are smarter than me to balance them properly.

SEALs aren't unbeatable, this is unrealistic in real world as in game terms, but they are very useful indeed!

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

[Evil Capitalist]

If by explosives you mean nuclear weapons then yes it's possible. However they would be bound to slip up or be caught lacing the camp with plastique. No sane commander would tell SEALs to take on a large force in a fair fight.

[Adm.Naismith]

Evil Capitalist, I mean to attack a SAM mobile battery and mine enough radar, missiles launcher and command centre to rend it military useless (you don't need to kill every soldiers, of course).

I mean to attack an artillery or SCUD missile group and, once again, hit and run.

If your unit is discovered it can be destroyed or damaged (I'm thinking about the SMAC fast unit ability to retreat if 50% damaged).

I agree, Special forces must be fast and smart, not bullish to attack on a fair level

In game term, they are more like SMAC probe team that plain heavy infantry, just left pure espionage mission to an intelligence screen.


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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

[UltraSonix]

I'm getting into the grove again...

Here's another idea, that a bit unrelated - if the SMAC morale system (it's like the veteran thing but had many diff levels of verteran-ess) is to be used in Civ3, then maybe units can be built (at much higher cost) to be elite (ie most verteran). This would address the SEAL idea above because you could, for example, choose to pay extra to build marines/commandos that come out of the factory already elite, instead of slowly becoming elite.

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards...

[Shadowstrike]

Maybe SEAL abilities should be granted to ground "marine" units when they reach elite status. I also advocate dumping building units as vets. Units should earn their experience. As such, SEAL teams would become rare and valued units.

[DarkCloud]

Shadowstrike-

Good Idea, then the unit progression would be

For Regular Units-

Green
Veteran
Hardened
Elite
Commando (Commando recieves 'stealth' options "Invisible Unit to enemy")

For Air Units-

Green
Veteran
Hardened
Elite

For Marine Units-

Green
Veteran
Hardened
Elite
Commando (SEAL like with spy skills in addition to advanced fighting and amphibious skills)