But Seriously

[notyoueither]

But seriously, folks...

To the fans (myself included): do you think this is the best they can do? Of course it's not!

Stacked movement. That would be good.

A more interesting Modern Era. That would be good.

Better Worker AutoOrders. That would be good.

More information in many parts of the interface. That would be good. For instance, Stack of Workers, Right click, see what they are doing (ie Irrigation, Pollution, etc). For instance, what resources are in demand by whom. Trade Advisor? Trade Advisor? You mean you don't know this? You're fired!

Many more great things. They would be good.

To the critics: is it that bad? Come on Lib, even you can figure out how to move units in a stack one after the other without being distracted by other stacks (hint; right click, start with the bottom unit on the list).

So you don't like moving unit after unit after unit. So tell me, what was so great about civ or civ2? I assume that anyone who comments on this thread will have played and loved civ or civ2. So why the different standard re unit movement mechanics in civ3? I'm curious.

So you don't like corruption. Neither did I, but it can be managed, especially with the editor if you want to depart from the herd.

So you don't like the combat system. Honestly, how many times has a Spearman destroyed one of your Modern Armour. I'm not asking how often it has been possible to happen. I am not asking if you have nightmares of it happening. I am asking how many times it has actually happened. Now, how many times out of 100 or 1000 is that?

Is there anything the fan-boys and the critics can agree?

How about this. Civ3 was released as a beta. That's right. You and me were asked to pay for a beta. Unfinished, unpolished, beta. Only we were not asked to pay for a beta. We were promised a nice shiny box, with promises of civ greatness inside. And some of us are p*ssed that that's not what we got. And some of us are p*ssed that Sid isn't eating dirt because of it. Well, I'm not.

I'm not p*ssed. I have heard how CTP2 bankrupted its designers and/or some others involved in that project. They dumped a lot of effort (money!) on the initial release. Man, we had techs all the way till 2200, woohoo. Sales did not go well. They did not have the resources to follow-up. They shot the roll. It wasn't good enough (for us). They folded. Do you want to invest in this?

I do not expect any company to risk suicide on the civ public after that. I do not expect it to be finished. In fact I would favour an interactive design process between the programmers and the dedicated fans. I'm happy to pay for a beta of a game I love. Hey, I've bought 2 copies so far (actually got a would be pirate to buy one from me). Only Firaxis has to deal with the realities of payrolls and Infogrammes. They can't say beta. It is kind of obvious, at least to me, that Firaxis was not in control of the time-table. Let's see, October release, November, CHRISTMAS. OK October or nothin.

So the questions are:

1: Can the fan boys be objective enough to give Firaxis some much needed help? Not surprisingly, they are asking for it. They have posted in the Strategy Forum, asking for feed back. They seem to monitor all of these forums. Is it perfect? Hell no! It could be much better. Keep telling them how.

2: Do the critics really think they are helping? Lib? Yin? Do you think that Firaxis and Infogrammes are being encouraged by your contributions to these forums lately? Really? Would you keep going and possibly throw good money after bad if your feedback is what you saw day in and day out? I know I wouldn't.

Is it that you want to see this title fail? Well let me tell you what will happen if this title fails. There never will be a civ 4. Unless some monumentally stupid person with a lot of money to spare decides to throw it all away. CTP2, Civ3. In capitalism its strike 2, You're Out! If you're lucky.

Civ3 lives and flourishes, thanks in part to the collective input of the community, or Civ dies. Period. Unless of course they can sell enough copies in FutureShop/BestBuy/YourAnIdiotBuyThis to be able to ignore us. But then, it wouldn't really be worthy of civ after all, would it?

Go ahead, flame away. I'm only telling the truth. It will not change, no matter how much you want it to.

Salve

[Libertarian]

Come on Lib, even you can figure out how to move units in a stack one after the other without being distracted by other stacks (hint; right click, start with the bottom unit on the list).

Thanks for the hint. Here's one for you. IT DOESN"T WORK.

Like most everything else about the game, it's buggy. It works sometimes, but fails to work sometimes. In relying on the "feature" that you recommend, I have sent workers on their way to irrelevant mountains when I thought I was sending a transport to a city, and other such eratic and random craziness.

Once a feature has bludgeoned me enough times, I stop relying on it.

Do the critics really think they are helping? Lib? Yin? Do you think that Firaxis and Infogrammes are being encouraged by your contributions to these forums lately? Really? Would you keep going and possibly throw good money after bad if your feedback is what you saw day in and day out? I know I wouldn't.

All I have asked of Firaxis is forthrightness, honesty, and appreciation of the community.

I have expressed appreciation when they have admitted their mistakes (as they did with play testing). I have thanked them when they have answered my questions (as they did — finally — with group movement). I have given credit where credit is due (as when I praised Soren for what I consider to be a good AI).

Now, you have chosen to put me into a pigeon hole, and that's your business. But not everything in life is black and white.

[notyoueither]

Well, hello Lib.

Originally posted by Libertarian


Thanks for the hint. Here's one for you. IT DOESN"T WORK.

Like most everything else about the game, it's buggy. It works sometimes, but fails to work sometimes. In relying on the "feature" that you recommend, I have sent workers on their way to irrelevant mountains when I thought I was sending a transport to a city, and other such eratic and random craziness.

Once a feature has bludgeoned me enough times, I stop relying on it.

Come on Lib, you want us to believe you cannot tell the difference between an animated worker and a transport? Weren't you paying any attention? I watch what I'm doing and switch back to the area that I want to focus on, maybe that's one reason why I'm not so disillusioned as you. Yes, it can be disorientating, and I hope that Firaxis improves it, but I do not see it as the bother that you seem to.

All I have asked of Firaxis is forthrightness, honesty, and appreciation of the community.

I have expressed appreciation when they have admitted their mistakes (as they did with play testing). I have thanked them when they have answered my questions (as they did — finally — with group movement). I have given credit where credit is due (as when I praised Soren for what I consider to be a good AI).

Now, you have chosen to put me into a pigeon hole, and that's your business. But not everything in life is black and white.

No, Lib. You have made yourself Black and White. You have admitted no Grey.

First you posted pics of the student in Beijing to justify Spearmen vs tanks when you were a fan. That was ridiculous IMHO, since it had nothing to do with combat.

Now you can admit no good things.

Snobs > Great Thinkers???? Care to explain that?

Salve

[Libertarian]

Come on Lib, you want us to believe you cannot tell the difference between an animated worker and a transport? Weren't you paying any attention? I watch what I'm doing and switch back to the area that I want to focus on, maybe that's one reason why I'm not so disillusioned as you. Yes, it can be disorientating, and I hope that Firaxis improves it, but I do not see it as the bother that you seem to.

So, because the tedium which you've described doesn't bother you, it shouldn't bother anyone? How myopic.

No, Lib. You have made yourself Black and White. You have admitted no Grey.

First you posted pics of the student in Beijing to justify Spearmen vs tanks when you were a fan. That was ridiculous IMHO, since it had nothing to do with combat.

Now you can admit no good things.

Proof that you don't know what you're talking about. I posted that image a couple of days ago.

As I said, I give credit where credit is due.

Snobs > Great Thinkers???? Care to explain that?

I already did, but I'm not surprised that it shot over your head.

[Special_Olympic]

I'm happy to pay for a beta of a game I love. Hey, I've bought 2 copies so far (actually got a would be pirate to buy one from me). Only Firaxis has to deal with the realities of payrolls and Infogrammes.

Well then you're happy. You paid for two betas. Yay.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Libertarian


So, because the tedium which you've described doesn't bother you, it shouldn't bother anyone? How myopic.



Proof that you don't know what you're talking about. I posted that image a couple of days ago.

As I said, I give credit where credit is due.



I already did, but I'm not surprised that it shot over your head.

Well Lib, time to call a spade a spade. Sorry, sorrta (not really).

1. You can't tell that you're moving a transport instead of a worker? Well, let me recommend Fisher Price Freddy Fish. It may be more your speed in a strategy game...

2. Snobs > Great Thinkers. You explained nothing. You offered a laughably servile explanation to hostile readers about how they should accept a former fan-boy as a critic. I haven't seen more *ss k*ssed in a very long time. You clearly need approval from someone, anyone. These are things that should be addressed outside the confines of an on-line forum. Preferably with a qualified professional.

None Slave

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Special_Olympic



Well then you're happy. You paid for two betas. Yay.

No. Read what I said. Someone bought one from me. Can you follow the bouncing ball?

You aren't a programmer are you? If you were, you wouldn't have chirped in with your 2/10000ths cents worth. A programmer might appreciate a pirate paying for code.

Salve

[Libertarian]

You can't tell that you're moving a transport instead of a worker?

I never said that I couldn't tell. That was a head-in-the-ass assumption made by, well, you. The few times that the randomness that you're defending happened, I had been stupid enough to trust the interface.

Then I woke up.

Great Thinkers. You explained nothing.

I explained that I was wrong when I called them snobs. If the explanation doesn't suit you, who cares? But you've no need to lie about it.

By the way, you're doing a great job in this thread pulling together the critics and the sycophants. Way to go.

[Adagio]

Hey notyoueither!

I have only one thing to say to you: You're damn right. There should be more people like you on this forum.

And for the whiners: It was infogrames that told when it should be released so don't blame it on Firaxis, and at least patches are being made. We have seen one patch by now, and what did it contain? A lots of fixes, not just 2 or 3 like other game companies, and I guess we can expect more patches to come. So if you need to blame somebody blame infogrames...

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Libertarian


I never said that I couldn't tell. That was a head-in-the-ass assumption made by, well, you. The few times that the randomness that you're defending happened, I had been stupid enough to trust the interface.

Then I woke up.



I explained that I was wrong when I called them snobs. If the explanation doesn't suit you, who cares? But you've no need to lie about it.

By the way, you're doing a great job in this thread pulling together the critics and the sycophants. Way to go.

Hmmm. Move the transport to the middle of the Himalayas. Yeah, I can see how that could happen to anybody... NOT. Freddie Fish awaits. Less frustration. Whattya say?

Come on Lib. You woke up when you decided to get all p*ssed at a response addressed directly at you from a Firaxis staffer that you found some offence in. I am still bewildered by how offence was taken, but maybe that's just me.

And no, I am not lying about anything. You switched from calling down the critics to k*ssing their *ss overnight. Just after that Firaxian response. How about that!

As far as pulling together the denizens of Apolyton is concerned, that would be a good thing. If you are part of it, great, but I doubt it. Bruised egos such as yours seldom come around.

As for what other effects this thread may have, maybe none. Maybe some. Who knows.

The truth remains. Civ3 succeeds or civ is dead. No one outside of the civ community is going to discount CTP2. We're all part of the same part and parcel as far as markets go.

Salve

[Peter Triggs]

I have heard how CTP2 bankrupted its designers and/or some others involved in that project. They dumped a lot of effort (money!) on the initial release. Man, we had techs all the way till 2200, woohoo. Sales did not go well. They did not have the resources to follow-up. They shot the roll. It wasn't good enough (for us). They folded.

Not really. CTP2 was developed and published by Activision. The company posted net revenues of $572 million for the fiscal year ending Mar 31/2000 and $620 million for the fiscal year ending Mar 31/2001. I believe their current big seller is 'Return to Castle Wolfenstein'.

[Libertarian]

It is a great ontological fortune for me that you are neither my judge, my jury, nor my executioner, although you play them on a message board.

Your snide hint about how to affect sensible movement order has been shown to be worthless.

Your accusation that I posted a picture of Tiannanmen when I was a fanboy like you has been proven false.

Your assertion that I did not explain changing my mind about people here has been exposed as a lie.

Yet you ramble on.

What was that you said about ego, oh blameless one?

This thread is nothing but the flame-bait of a troll. You clearly have no intention of mitigating the concerns of critics. Your bellicose and heavy-handed judgmentalism belies your claim of a high moral ground.

Physician, heal thyself.

[notyoueither]

Lib. Peace, OK.

I understand you are p*ssed. I cannot understand why, really. I could pretend, but it would be fake. Let me just acknowledge that you are p*ssed, and that how you feel cannot be wrong. It's a feeling after-all. Nothing objective.

You alluded to it earlier. Bring it together. I maybe missed the opportunity. Juussssttt ssoooooo haarrrrd ttttooo buuurrrryyy thhheeee haaaatchettt. Especially with someone who expresses themselves as well as you do.

I don't expect you to be a booster, but it would be nice if someone who can express himself as you can would begin to contribute to civ again, rather than drag it down (my feelings, can't be wrong, eh).

Salve

[moomin]

Originally posted by notyoueither

So you don't like moving unit after unit after unit. So tell me, what was so great about civ or civ2? I assume that anyone who comments on this thread will have played and loved civ or civ2. So why the different standard re unit movement mechanics in civ3? I'm curious.

The difference, of course, is that while it was, and is, perfectly feasible to conquer the world with two or three howitzers in Civ2, you need dozens of units to take a single city in the Civ3 end-game. Moving sixty units around every turn is _slightly_ more work than moving two.

Add to that that this inflation adds noting in itself (you use ten attackers as you would use one attacker of ten-fold strength) and you start really hurting for the lack of stack movement.

Finally, Civ2 is a five year old game. It's lack of stacked movement wasn't all that hot back then and it's entirely inexplicable now. The end game tedium is way worse than it ever was in Civ2.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Peter Triggs


Not really. CTP2 was developed and published by Activision. The company posted net revenues of $572 million for the fiscal year ending Mar 31/2000 and $620 million for the fiscal year ending Mar 31/2001. I believe their current big seller is 'Return to Castle Wolfenstein'.

I could be wrong. I am going on hearsay, but I am under the impression that CTP2 does not have a good rep in the publishing community as a money maker. I heard that someone really hurt over it. Did Activision develop it? Can't find any other mentions on the materials I have at hand (the retail box).

Can someone correct me?

Salve

[notyoueither]

moominparatrooper

I usually use 8 to 12 ModernArmour. Takes most cities, at least until Vel's patch with no name. Then, who knows?

Yes, I agree. The game really needs stacked or grouped movement (they aren't necessarily the same thing).

As for the end game tedium... Have you tried disabling Diplomacy and Space Victory? DON'T.

But, how can it be made better? Isn't that the point?

Salve

[Libertarian]

But, how can it be made better? Isn't that the point?

I'll attempt to communicate with you here without receiving condescension and taunts in return. We'll see how it goes...

How it can be made better has been enumerated to a fare-thee-well in manifold threads over the course of several weeks. What is missing is any but the most coy acknowledgment from the developers of the game whether they agree that the suggestions made would be improvements or whether they have any intention of implementing them. There has been no expression of gratitude for suggestions, no indication of what ideas they like, and no acknowledgment of their intentions about anything at all.

Suggestions for interface improvements have been given in excruciating detail. You need only harvest them from the many threads dating back to the game's release.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you've just got here and that you missed all of it. Go search. See for yourself.

[notyoueither]

OK Lib, benefit of the doubt, that is my watch word.

I know it p*sses you off, but Firaxis obviously has a policy of no comment. So long as they develop civ and you tune in, you are going to be p*ssed. Irresistible force, meet immovable object.

I don't know what else to say. I don't know what anyone outside of Firaxis could ever say. And they ain't talkin by policy.

No offence here, but why beat your head into the wall?

I am choosing to proceed along the lines that they are continuing to develop the game. Unless I want ulcers I think that is the only way to go.

I admit, I am trusting that they will tell us when they are done, no more. At that point I can decide if I want to continue playing and helping to develop the game via mods or move on. That's my role. I can control that. I can live with it.

If I don't like the way Firaxis does things, or how the game is progressing, then I can cut out earlier. What can be simpler.

All of us have these options. Although, I have to admit, cutting civ loose and saying we'll go our separate ways, that may be painful. Hmmmm. Maybe I can appreciate the conundrum you are faced with after all.

Salve

[Libertarian]

I did exactly what you say you're going to do.

If you search for my first thread that asked Firaxis to consider improvements, you'll see there that I explained that I had waited until after the release of the patch. I supported them until that time with quite some fervor, giving them exactly the benefit of the doubt that we are discussing here.

I don't have to be slapped too hard to know that I'm not dreaming. If they will not acknowledge the sincere suggestions of even their most vociferous fans, how can they be trusted for anything else?

I have no idea what they're working on right now. No one does, thanks to the remarkably dense no-comment policy. But one thing they certainly are NOT working on is customer relations.

They are leaving that task to people like you.

[notyoueither]

Touche.

Businesses rely on the good will and fervour of their happy customers, like me.

Obviously, they have lost your good will somewhere along the way. They did something that set you against them.

As you have stated, that point was when you could no longer wait for the morsels of info that they give out. OK. That's fine.

But then why stick around? Honestly?

[Peter Triggs]

CTP2 definitely wasn't a big money maker and Activision may have even lost some on the deal. But with the kind of turnover they've got they can afford to develop the odd bomb: that's just part of the risks involved in being a publisher.

As far as Civ3 is concerned, I think you're right that people should be keeping their eye on it's current sales. If it, too, were to bomb then we might well be seeing the end of Civilisation as we know it. Which reminds me:


Markos, the NPD sales figures for the week before Christmas (Dec 16-22) are out. Civ3 came in at #8.

[Venger]

Originally posted by moominparatrooper
The difference, of course, is that while it was, and is, perfectly feasible to conquer the world with two or three howitzers in Civ2,

That's overselling it a bit methinks. If you are playing on Deity, 2 howitzers doesn't even take one city - the AI has 5 or 6 alpine or mech inf in every city, along with stealth bombers that he WILL use!

Howitzer blitzes kinda sucked but it didn't happen like that. Hell, even IF you could take a city with two howitzers, all the partisans created after you took it would take two howitzers 3 turns to clear!!!

you need dozens of units to take a single city in the Civ3 end-game. Moving sixty units around every turn is _slightly_ more work than moving two.

Exactly, but the REAL stupid part is that in Civ3, you can take a city with 4 tanks, but in order to not have it "culturally revolt", which in itself is one of the faggiest concepts I've ever heard for a historical strategy game, I have to move 20 tanks in behind it. Every city. Unless you want to be a genocidal freak and raze the city.

Finally, Civ2 is a five year old game. It's lack of stacked movement wasn't all that hot back then and it's entirely inexplicable now. The end game tedium is way worse than it ever was in Civ2.

Preach on brother.

Venger

[ChrisShaffer]

Originally posted by Venger
Exactly, but the REAL stupid part is that in Civ3, you can take a city with 4 tanks, but in order to not have it "culturally revolt", which in itself is one of the faggiest concepts I've ever heard for a historical strategy game, I have to move 20 tanks in behind it. Every city. Unless you want to be a genocidal freak and raze the city.

Venger, please stop inflicting your homophobia on us. It doesn't help your arguments at all.

[ACooper]

Originally posted by Libertarian
I did exactly what you say you're going to do.

If you search for my first thread that asked Firaxis to consider improvements, you'll see there that I explained that I had waited until after the release of the patch. I supported them until that time with quite some fervor, giving them exactly the benefit of the doubt that we are discussing here.

I don't have to be slapped too hard to know that I'm not dreaming. If they will not acknowledge the sincere suggestions of even their most vociferous fans, how can they be trusted for anything else?

I have no idea what they're working on right now. No one does, thanks to the remarkably dense no-comment policy. But one thing they certainly are NOT working on is customer relations.

They are leaving that task to people like you.

That's why you are pissed? Because they didn't answer you personally or give you some personal credit for you suggestions that you posted on a web site that is not connected to Firaxis or Infogames? Guess what? They don't have to. This (Apolyton) is not a "customer service site". The answers we get here are on people's free time.

I think the purpose of this is to get people to work together, but all you do is whine and put up stupid incomprehensible illogical arguments that prove nothing.

I still don't understand the how you could mistake a transport for a settler.

[ACooper]

I think this thread was excellent until hijacked.

[Venger]

Originally posted by ChrisShaffer

Venger, please stop inflicting your homophobia on us. It doesn't help your arguments at all.

Homophobia is such a misnomer. I have no "irrational" fear or dislike for homosexuals. In fact, I game twice a month with a guy who is gay as the day is long. Best friend in high school was queer as a three dollar bill too. However, having the same equipment, I understand the RIGHT way to use it. I don't like them or dislike them because of their sexuality - because I don't deal with them on that level.

However, if you want to get into it, go for it. There isn't a gay leg to stand on. You can do whatever floats your boat, rub your pathetic little pecker up against your honey, or the neighbors dog, or a knothole in the fence. Doesn't matter to me. But don't try and sell me on "sex is sex" and some type of normal equivalency between gay and straight sex.

You may not like the word, but it fits it to a tee...

Venger

[Willem]

Originally posted by notyoueither
But seriously, folks...

I do not expect any company to risk suicide on the civ public after that. I do not expect it to be finished. In fact I would favour an interactive design process between the programmers and the dedicated fans. I'm happy to pay for a beta of a game I love. Hey, I've bought 2 copies so far (actually got a would be pirate to buy one from me). Only Firaxis has to deal with the realities of payrolls and Infogrammes. They can't say beta. It is kind of obvious, at least to me, that Firaxis was not in control of the time-table. Let's see, October release, November, CHRISTMAS. OK October or nothin.

Salve

I agree with you. Judging from the several posts I've seen by Firaxis employees, they are taking an active interest in trying to make this a better product for everyone. I'm also a Command & Conquer fan, but I don't recall ever seeing an interview by a Westwood designer on one of their forums. Civ 3 is a very complex game, and they have chosen a new direction in which to take it. Mistakes are bound to happen, especially as you pointed out that it was rushed in order to meet the Christmas deadline.

And changes take time to implement. Programming of any kind can be a slow, tedious process of testing and retesting, as anyone who has had the slighest experience with it should know. Unless of course some people would prefer a patch that addresses their own issues, but makes other areas unplayable. Judging from my attempts to customize my own game through the editor, one slight change in an area can have serious repurcussions in others, to the point where the game simply won't work any longer.

So I would suggest that people should show a bit more patience with Firaxis, and give them some credit for making the effort to listen to the fans, and trying to make changes. I think it's to their credit that they came out a patch so quickly after the game was released, and I'm sure that I won't have to wait very long before the next one comes out.

[Libertarian]

NYE:

But then why stick around? Honestly?

As I've said many times, hope springs eternal.

-----

SRA:

That's why you are pissed? Because they didn't answer you personally or give you some personal credit for you suggestions that you posted on a web site that is not connected to Firaxis or Infogames?

No. I'm not pissed at all. That's your own infantile inference.

Guess what? They don't have to. This (Apolyton) is not a "customer service site". The answers we get here are on people's free time.

Yeah. That would explain the thread opened by Jeff Morris.

I think the purpose of this is to get people to work together, but all you do is whine and put up stupid incomprehensible illogical arguments that prove nothing.

Tu quoque.

I still don't understand the how you could mistake a transport for a settler.

I didn't, oh blind one. The interface did.

I think this thread was excellent until hijacked.

Amen. So why don't you go away?

[Special_Olympic]

Originally posted by notyoueither


No. Read what I said. Someone bought one from me. Can you follow the bouncing ball?

You aren't a programmer are you? If you were, you wouldn't have chirped in with your 2/10000ths cents worth. A programmer might appreciate a pirate paying for code.

Salve

Yes I am a programmer, but maybe I didn't appreciate your comment becasue it was rather childish and really contains no logic?

If you like paying for betas that's great... good for you.

[ACooper]

Lib,

It's not you are saying that I disagree with. It's the way you say it. It's your continuous need to be a loud mouth whiner. Your suggestions are valuable and worthwhile but get over yourself and realize that you are not the only person who has ideas to make the game better and the guys at Firaxis and InfoGames have had a lot of input and can't reply to everyone personally.

The game is not that bad and is playable as is. Sure there are lots of improvements to be made and the programmers have demonstrated that they are working on some of the things even if they can't say anything specific. All of this takes time and don't forget that we have had 3 major holidays since the game was released (in the US anyway).

I'm sure your message has been heard, now move on.



Thank you and now back to your regular programming.........