List of Civilizations

Just a word on the "Holy Roman Empire of German Nation". The "German Nation" was not added to it before the 15th cent. (I don't remember when exactly).
Anyway, that doesn't make a change, it WAS a german nation, however it was called.

[Adm.Naismith]

I agree with the Joker, S.Kroeze and DarkCloud (my apologize if I forgot someone else):
main civ in game MUST be real Civilization.

If they can properly rise and fall they'll generate many different countries, some very succesfull (in power terms) as U.S.A.

Minor civ (if for gameplay reason some Civ will be limited from start to that role) can include a lot of "short lasted" country.

Anyone that wants its personal country in, should ask for some specific scenarios: this will better reproduce the role of that country without shadowing it with major powers presence.

Every country fights for its place in the world, and has been in a key point sometimes.

I don't want to miscredit it, still many probably didn't played such important role in history for a long time.

Sure, we must have some freedom into rewriting history in a Civ III game, still we should start from a realistic situation IMHO.

"Switzerland should rule the world, if only that alien spacecraft didn't vaporize itself over Tunguska, but landed safely in font of a Swiss Bank..." can be funny, but I hope not the core of the game.

BTW, what about discarding Sid Meiers part of the game name and call it
"Raise and fall of Civilizations"?

Oh, I see the bad marketing effect if the game turned in a flop Never mind!

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

[Pondo]

I agree with The Joker, etc. But I think taht what we discuss here is really the Civil War Thread Thingy. Start with a few Civs and if the get too large and far spread they will break up and form new Civs.
Historical I feel that there should not be more than 8 Civs, but will that be fun? I definetly will get mad, should my world-wide empire break up in smaller Civs, all asking to be reconquered. In addition I like the idea of playing a small country like denmark and make them ruler of the world.But that again is a matter of taste.So what I´m trying to say is that even though by rights there should only be a few Civs, I wouldn´t mind a lot of ´em plus the option too choose which one you want to compete with. So everybody can just play the way he/she likes and there will be much rejoicing

Pondo

[Dida]

quote: . For Asia, add the Tibetans. Vitmore

Tibetans was only a kind of Chinese,
they have always been under the rule
of the chinese kings, so tibetans are
not eligeble to be added as a major civ,
maybe it could be a minor civ, waiting
to be conquered by the great chinese empire.

[Luk]

As I see the history is not a good subject for every American.

The Nation is not equal the state...

We can not easly set the date when the nation was founded. We can set the date when the Nation started to forming, and when the united culture, tradition, and language of some people started to unite them. The German Nation started to expand their culture and set the new united tradition before 1000 year. It doesnt matter that they didnt have the centralized Country for a long time, the light structure of Germany lasted till 1800s... The German culture, language, tradition have over 1000 years, like almost all European Nation, and European Nations are the real Nations, rest we can name people, not nations...
Canada.. Buhahahaha, I dont think that they are Nation, they form united citizenship, but not Nation.

Another word to the Germany thing: Maybe it wasn't a unified nation for a long time but still it had its specific culture, Canada seems not to have such a distinct culture (That shall not be a valuation of better and worse of course!)

The Tibetans: I think it should be a minor civbut it's not true that they are "almost chinese" or were ruled by them all the time.
In earkier centuries they made themselves raids on China.
They were conquered first by the mongols in 1239, then by the chinese in 1731.

How did that happen?
[This message has been edited by wernazuma (edited August 23, 2000).]

oops, really sorry 'bout triple-post
[This message has been edited by wernazuma (edited August 23, 2000).]

[Vitmore The Great]

Luk,if your defination of nation is the culture that unites people, then obviously you're right. I reword my statement: the nation-STATE of Canada is older than the nation-state of Germany. By the way:

a) Canada is a nation by your definition,

b) I'm not American, and

c) my knowledge of history is just fine.

Vitmore 8-)

[IamRookie]

canada.. 2nd largest country in the world in land mass.. but with population the size of california

[Vitmore The Great]

Just to clarify something, the nation of Canada is OLDER than the present nation of Germany. Canada became a naton in 1867, after the BNA (British North America Act). Germany, was founded as a centralized nation in the Palace of Versailles after the the Prussian victory over France in the Franco-Prussian War of 1871. Before this, Germanywas nothing more than a loose conglomerate of mini states that were the playings of the great powers of France, Britain, Prussia and Austria (the two German superpowers), Sweden, and Poland. Take note of the Thirty Years War, which exclamates my point, as well as every other pre-1871 continental war. True, the Carolingian Empire of Charlemagne, which was refounded as the Holy Roman Empire of Otto in 962, did function as a single state, but the Frankish tradition of dividing ones lands between the sons fractured political cohesiveness. Prussia was the first power since Charlemagne and Otto to form a true centalized German state (The Second Reich).

So, the nation of Canada is therfore older than the present nation of Germany, which was formed in 1871, made a republic in 1919, a dictatorship in 1933, two republics in 1949, and reunited as a federal state in 1989.

So there. Let the disagreements begin!


8-)

Vitmore

[Vitmore The Great]

One cannot say civ when refering to the races in Civilization, because, as one said before, a civ must be distinct. In that case, Canada is not distinct enough from the US, which is not distinct enough from Britain, which is not distinct from France, which is not distinct enough from any Western European nation, and those nation of the world that were colonized greatly by Europe. These nation for Western Civilization. So, one must speak of cultures when evaluating which contry should be represented, not civs, sinceif that were the case, there would be few playable races in the game. There has been really only 25 major civs in history ranging from Sumerian in c6000BC to Western c2000.


Vitmore
[This message has been edited by Vitmore The Great (edited August 22, 2000).]

[CornMaster]

It's not like no one lived in Canada before 1867. The first settlement in mainland Canada was in 1604 by the French and even earlier by the english in Newfoundland in the 1500's. Of course we could go back to the 900's by the Vikings in Labrador and in Northern Newfoundland.

Plus all the native indian tribes that lived in Canada and Newfoundland at the time. In Newfoundland alone you had the Beothuks and the MicMaks. If the Souix are a major tribe in Civ 2 how can't Canada be a major tribe in Civ 3!!!

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"I'm too out of shape for a long fight so I'll have to kill you fast"
Administrator of the CornEmpire Forum
My Civ 2 Scenario Page.

[Patriqvium]

You don't need to separate Vikings and Swedes; they basically were the same. Ethiopians would be a fine addition to African civs.

[Luk]

There is no other definition of Nation like that the Nation is created by people with same culture, traditions, history, and language....

You can not create Nation in one year just by building the state...

Canada is a Nation, but it is weak Nation, whoch can be easly destroyed. It is very easly united, and for sure it is not a civilisation

[shmily_dana]

I just want to be able to pick any set of Civilizations as my opponents. In Civ II, as the Germans, I can only fight the Vikings and the French if I edit 'Rules.txt'.

[DarkCloud]

Okay, I have attempted to be civilized in my posts thus far, however Canadian-supporters have proved to be too narrow-minded and obstinate in their cries so I will set in stone baby-talk why CANADA SHOULD NOT BE A CIV IN CIV III,IV,V,etc!

CANADA IS,HAS, AND WAS NEVER MAJOR ARMY/POLITICAL POWER IN THE WORLD! UNTIL AFTER WORLD WAR II IT MERELY "Followed" IT'S PARENT COUNTRY- BRITAIN IN WHAT EVER IT DID. BRITAIN DECLARED WAR ON GERMANY, SO DID CANADA IN WORLD WAR I, BRITAIN DECLARED WAR ON GERMANY IN WORLD WAR II, SO DID CANADA.
CANADA MAY BE A NICE PLACE TO LIVE BUT SO WHAT!? DO YOU THINK THAT EGYPT WAS A GREAT PLACE TO LIVE!?!?
ALL CIVS IN CIV II HAVE BEEN/ARE/OR WERE (To repeat myself) MAJOR CIVS AT ONE TIME; CONSIDER

1. Romans
2. Russians
3. Germans
4. French
5. Americans
6. Egyptians
7. Chinese
8. Aztec
9. etc.

NO CIV WAS CONSIDERED FOR THE SAKE OF ADDING AN EXTRA CIVILIZATION.

Notice: all these civs had three things in common.

1. They had/have their own unique culture
2. They were/are great civilizations with much power.
3. They have influenced the world in some great way.
EXAMPLE:
America- World War II
Germany- Great Authors,Poets,Musicians, All World Wars
England- Founded America. Had a great empire that influenced all lands, Canada, Austrailia,India,South Africa. In the seven seas.
etc.

SO ALL YOU CANADA SUPPORTERS- READ THIS!

For more info read my "Websters Dictionary" Post.
[This message has been edited by DarkCloud (edited August 24, 2000).]

[The Joker]

YEEHAA S.Kroeze!

It was great to read through that old thread again. Weren't we the ones who developed the Rise and Fall of Civilizations idea? I know Matthew layed the foundation in the thread you linked to, but I think it was us who developed the idea in the SE Models thread. At least we named it, as you mentioned Kennedy's (not JF, another Kennedy) book "Rise and Fall of Great Powers", and I had knew about it. Quickly the rise and fall were simply the name of our project. It all topped when the Matthew raised the rise and fall idea to the top of the EC3 list!

This brings back some good memories...


BTW: I am thinking about perhabs suggesting The Rise and Fall of Great Powers/Civilizations as the name for OpenCiv3. Could this be a good name???

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"It is only when we have lost everything
that we are free to do anything."
- Fight Club

[Gord McLeod]

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud on 08-23-2000 08:08 PM CANADA IS,HAS,WAS,AND NEVER WILL BE A MAJOR ARMY/POLITICAL POWER IN THE WORLD!

Gee, do I sense a little hostility? Tell it to the UN and the technologists.

[Patriqvium]

You don't sense some hostility, you sense some wisdom.

[Az]

first :

by Imran

And the Israelis? Come on!! Except for religion, what have they really done?

well I guess those religions creating the Arab empire , then the crusades , bringing a new ethical code of laws.... well nothing I guess . and having an empire that incuded syria Jordan and Israel for 150 Years, by this controlling the trade route from Babylon to Egypt , by hell what do I say , that's nothing !

next .

Empires shouldn't just fall apart by themselves . if the leader is careless they will . but with all those micromangement masters and High IQ analysts running around , I say that we should hit them hard with the micromanagement making centralized orders concerning every city or province or whatever less effective or the player would have the choise of burrying himself in Micromanagement .... but again and again I say : If some1 doesn't like something , let him turn it off!

[Youngsun]

Annam=Siam? !!!

quote: In the first century BC, China conquered several regions of Vietnam. Vietnam is located directly south of China and it borders Laos and the Tonkin Bay. The Tonkin Bay, part of the South China Sea, is located directly off the coast of Vietnam (Duiker; 171). In the time of the Chinese Han Dynasty, around 43 AD, the Chinese defeated and united the central and lower regions of Vietnam with their sprawling empire. Specifically, China conquered the regions of Tonkin and Annam. Annam is located along the central coast of Vietnam from the lower edge of the Red River Delta to the southern boundary of the central highlands in the south (Duiker; 12). Tonkin is located in the Red River Delta. Tonkin and Annam are the names the Chinese gave to the southern and central regions of Vietnam. Under Han rule, the Chinese changed the Vietnamese name of Bar-bo to Tonkin, which is the southern region of Vietnam (Duiker; 18).The central region of Vietnam became Annam, originally named Trung-bo. The Chinese name Annam means "Pacified South." However, the extremely patriotic Vietnamese people considered the Chinese names insulting. The Vietnamese people felt so strongly about these names, that in 939, when Vietnam regained its independence, the original names of Bar-bo and Trung-bo were reinstated

[DarkCloud]

Sorry, I just reread what I wrote and will be changing it. I did not mean to insult anyone, I merely wanted people to read what I wrote. So I took out the "Never Will Be" for, who knows, someday Canada might be the ruling country

but as a final thought:

Has Canada ever conquered another country. All of the other civs have done so, even America did when it beat mexico up in the Mexican-American war in 1854.

Of course we were wrong to attack mexico, but we were also wrong to seceede from Britain, but hey, it worked out for the best, as shown in WWI and WWII

[Imran Siddiqui]

Dalgetti... that is nothing much... especially when considering every other nation... and the state of Israel (Palestine) is from 1948, btw.

My opinion still stands... Israel SHOULD NOT be in the game. It has done NOTHING!

Thankfully the designers of Civ are smart minded folk not like the morons who make CtP, and throw in every nation plus the kitchen sink! I have no doubt that Israel will not be included!

[DarkCloud]

I vote for the Israleis/Hebrews to be included for they have risen and fallen and once been a mighty civilization.

In the time after Moses they conquered many lands and set up a kingdom for themselves.

In the time of David they were a great empire.

And nowadays they are just beginning to realize their full potential. (Hey they took over the Gaza Strip and the Golan Heights)

So, all throught history they have been a force to be reckoned with and thus should be included.

[CornMaster]

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud on 08-24-2000 08:57 PM someday Canada might be the ruling country

And they probably will!

quote: Has Canada ever conquered another country.

I guess your right there but Canada has never needed to conquer another country. Canada was only a major part of the two wars with Germany (WWI & WW2) in which our side won!!! (As you all know).
And Canada also defeated USA in the epic war of 1812. So what do you have to say to that!!

quote: All of the other civs have done so, even America did when it beat mexico up in the Mexican-American war in 1854.

If I'm not mistaken there is still a country called Mexico? Which is not under American control!

Time and time again people keep trying to discredit Canada as an independent country and time and time again me and my fellow Canadians stand up to your challenges. When will you understand that Canada IS a Major Power!!!



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"I'm too out of shape for a long fight so I'll have to kill you fast"
Administrator of the CornEmpire Forum
My Civ 2 Scenario Page.

[Luk]

And Polish civilization.

1)Own unique culture... yes, And I think that Russian does not accomplish this point
2)Yes, XVI/XVII (We had Moscow)
3)They defended Europe from Turks, and Bolscheviks for 1000 years

1. Yes Imeant Siam and you're right, it would be a better name than Annam.

2. I included Israel mainly because of two reasons: It has a unique culture and jewish people contributed much to world culture, just think of all those scientists, writer, musicians (and hollywood-regisseurs).

I agree that power is a very good reason to add a civilization to the list but not the only one.
The Sioux were added to represent native-american culture, the aztecs were powerful only in relative terms, but their unique culture makes them worth to be included, same with Mayans and Incas.

[Youngsun]

wernazuma

quote: History of "Kingdom of Siam"(Thailand) Nanchao Period (650-1250 A.D.) The Thai people founded their kingdom in the southern part of China, which is Yunnan, Kwangsi and Canton today. A great number of people migrated south as far as the Chao Phraya Basin and settled down over the Central Plain under the sovereignty of the Khmer Empire, whose culture they probably accepted. The Thai people founded their independent state of Sukhothai around 1238 A.D., which marks the beginning of the Sukhothai Period. Sukhothai Period (1238-1378 A.D.) Thais began to emerge as a dominant force in the region in the13th century, gradually asserting independence from existing Khmer and Mon kingdoms. Called by its rulers "the dawn of happiness", this is often considered the golden era of Thai history, an ideal Thai state in a land of plenty governed by paternal and benevolent kings, the most famous of whom was King Ramkamhaeng the Great. However in 1350, the mightier state of Ayutthaya exerted its influence over Sukhothai. Ayutthaya Period (1350-1767) The Ayutthaya kings adopted Khmer cultural influences from the very beginning. No longer the paternal and accessible rulers that the kings of Sukhothai had been, Ayutthaya's sovereigns were absolute monarchs and assumed the title devaraja (god-king). The early part of this period saw Ayutthaya extend its sovereignty over neighboring Thai principalities and come into conflict with its neighbours, During the 17th century, Siam started diplomatic and commercial relations with western countries. In 1767, a Burmese invasion succeeded in capturing Ayutthaya. Despite their overwhelming victory, the Burmese did not retain control of Siam for long. A young general named Phya Taksin and his followers broke through the Burmese encirclement and escaped to Chantaburi. Seven months after the fall of Ayutthaya, he and his forces sailed back to the capital and expelled the Burmese occupation garrison. Thon Buri Period (1767-1772) General Taksin, as he is popularly known, decided to transfer the capital from Ayutthaya to a site nearer to the sea which would facilitate foreign trade, ensure the procurement of arms, and make defence and withdrawal easier in case of a renewed Burmese attack. He established his new capital at Thon Buri on the west bank of the Chao Phraya River. The rule of Taksin was not an easy one. The lack of central authority since the fall of Ayutthaya led to the rapid disintegration of the kingdom, and Taksin's reign was spentreuniting the provinces. Rattanakosin Period (1782 - the Present) After Taksin's death, General Chakri became the first king of the Chakri Dynasty, Rama I, ruling from 1782 to 1809. His first action as king was to transfer the royal capital across the river from Thon Buri to Bangkok and build the Grand Palace. Rama II (1809-1824) continued the restoration begun by his predecessor. King Nang Klao, Rama III (1824-1851) reopened relations with Western nations and developed trade with China. King Mongkut, Rama IV, (1851-1868) of "The King and I" concluded treaties with European countries, avoided colonialisation and established modern Thailand. He made many social and economic reforms during his reign . King Chulalongkorn, Rama V (1869-1910)continued his father's tradition of reform, abolishing slavery and improving the public welfare and administrative system. Compulsory education and other educational reforms were introduced by King Vajiravudh, Rama VI (1910-1925). During the reign of King Prajadhipok, (1925-1935), Thailand changed from an absolute monarchy to a constitutional monarchy. The king abdicated in 1933 and was succeeded by his nephew, King Ananda Mahidol (1935-1946).The country's name was changed from Siam to Thailandwith the advent of a democratic government in 1939. The present monarch, King Bhumibol Adulyadej, is King Rama IX of the Chakri Dynasty.

Loose historical connection from the Ancient civilisations to modern nations.
Annam=Vietnam
Siam=Thailand
Khmer Empire=Cambodia
[This message has been edited by Youngsun (edited August 26, 2000).]

[Youngsun]

Luk

Yes we often forget how great Poland was and It's always not enough to emphasize that "Poland has been a life saviour of Western Europe".(If there was no Poland, all Western Europeans may be Muslems or Bolscheviks by now)

King "Jan Sobieski"(spectacular victory against Ottoman empire)and "Pilsudski"(crushing victory against Soviet union)should always be honoured and remembered by Western Europeans along with Ancient Greek victories against Persians.