Quest for an OCC launch in deity

[solo]

TT,

As the Greeks, I've done it both ways:

1) Build Colossus right away, and use its extra research power to get to Literature earlier, and using a barracks to lead into the Great Library. Barracks is not much of a start, but it does save a handful of building turns, plus the early arrival to Lit starts building the GL a few turns earlier.

2) Postpone Colossus so it is sure to lead into the Great Library. This gives a better chance of beating the AI to the GL, but diminishes chances for the Colossus later.

On standard maps with 7 AI, I prioritize the GL, since it helps the most in the early game. A lot also depends on the commerce and shield potential of the city.

Until you built the GL with the Persians, I would have thought that the Greeks provided the only reasonable chance, but in my game using your start I managed to do it. I did start Colossus first, but switched to the Pyramids when I noticed the AI were researching pretty fast and that the GL would have to be almost done by the time I got Literature. Having the bigger capacity of the Pyramids, plus fast workers, definitely makes the Persians a viable civ choice, but I think there is a better chance for both Colossus and GL using the Greeks. With the Persians, there's a definite danger an AI will build the Pyramids before you can learn Literature, too.

I have a start posted above using a standard map, but only 4 civs, where the Greeks can easily build both wonders. The one you provided is a dream come true and the best I've found so far on a standard map. I have some other decent ones where I failed, but will look and attach them when I get a chance. It would be nice to set up a collection of good OCC starts as was done so well by Paul in CivII.

Currently, with your start, I have the GL, Copernicus, Newton's and have just finished Theory of Evolution, which the French were also building. They have been researching techs very quickly in my game and it has been very difficult keeping up without the help of the Colossus. One thing for sure is that there is no time to dally when going for a vital wonder. EVERYTHING must focus on the next one coming up, or it will be missed, especially on bigger maps with more AI and their added competition. I will get back to finishing my game.

(edited above to substitute Pyramids, which I meant, for the Great Wall, which I didn't)

[solo]

TT,

Some standard map starts with 7 civs using the Greeks. None are that great, but they are better than most random ones. Only conquest and spaceship victory types are enabled. Have fun!

solo

[solo]

I was able to launch in 1625 as the Persians using the standard map start provided by Toe Truck. I just nudged out the French, who completed their ship on the turn of my launch, so this one was quite a nail biter. The French were kind enough to sell me Laser for 3010 gold allowing me to launch just in time to win.

The standard map slows research speeds in OCC games considerably. On smaller maps, I was able to get ahead of the AI pretty often, but not so in this game. Being first to a new tech only happened for me a few times. However, the bigger map and more AI compensate by providing many more opportunities to accumulate gold and huge piles of it. At my peak I was bringing in 300 gold/per turn, most of it coming from tech trades to the AI. This extra gold was needed to acquire newer techs to wheel and deal with.

I stole tech twice during my game, both times from the tech leader, the French. The first time I only had enough gold for a careful theft, but felt the gamble was necessary in order to have a chance of winning later. The second time, I used the safely option to steal Space Flight while learning Computers. My limited experience with espionage suggests that “safely” always works and that lower levels are more likely to be successful for that first theft attempt.

With a little more commerce, this would have been the perfect OCC city site. As it was, peak beakers were around 350 at 100% science (only 90% could be sustained though in this game), and the city was putting out the ideal amount of 80 shields, a very convenient multiple for building spaceship parts and just about anything else. For once, a valuable resource, rubber, fell within the OCC borders, which added just another dash of commerce to work with. A log of the game follows:

BC years

4000 Persepolis

Science will be kept at 100% until Literature is obtained.

3750 warrior
3600 Bronze Working to French for 10g
3550 warrior
3500 size 2
3450 Hut: Barbs, they kill my warrior
Bronze Working to Zulus for Pottery
Masonry to Z for Warrior Code, 1g
Warrior Code,19g to F for Alphabet

Trading for Alphabet saves a few turns getting to that all important Literature.

3400 warrior
3350 warrior
3200 hut: nothing
2800 granary

I’m trying this since I was able to trade for Pottery early. If Persepolis grows twice as fast, the extra commerce and shields should get me to the Great Library a little sooner. I start saving shields in Colossus.

2550 size 4
2430 Writing
2310 size 5
2270 contact Germans
2150 size 6
1940 size 7
1625 size 8
1600 Literature

On the way to Literature, the shields in Colossus were transferred to The Pyramids, and are now transferred again to the Great Library. Only a few turns are needed to finish it off.

1550 French build Pyramids, Japanese complete Oracle
1450 Great Library, The Wheel, Ceremonial Burial, Iron Working, Mysticism, Philosophy, Code of Laws, Map Making, Horseback Riding, Polytheism
1gpt,30g to F for contact Babylonians
1gpt,21g to B for territory map
Polytheism to G for tmap,20g
1gpt,5g to Z for tmap

Now I have established contact with all known civs, and can see from the maps where the others are most likely to be. Science can be set to zero to rake in the gold.

1425 Mathematics, hut: 50g
Math to G for tmap,19g
1300 Currency, Monarchy, Indians build the Colossus

Nuts! I shift to a harbor to get trade going.

1275 harbor
Monarchy to B for wmap,60g
Currency to B for 1got,40g
Monarchy to G for wmap,5gpt,9g
Currency to G for worker who joins Persepolis which is now size 10
1250 wines to F for silks,wmap,1gpt,70g
1225 galley

I want to try and contact the remaining AI first if I can. A lot of shallow water up north gives me a hint that they might be close by up there.

1100 temple, size 11
1025 Construction, Monotheism
Mono to F for furs,wmap,3gpt,14g
Mono to Z for wmap,4gpt,1g
Construction to G for wmap,4gpt,3g

My hunch is right, and my galley finds the Chinese. This leads to a zillion trades. This galley continued to be lucky later in the game, surviving something like 5 turns out in the open ocean before sinking. Not that I cared, after it had done its job in locating the remaining AI.

1000 contact Chinese
contact French,Polytheism,Math to C for wmap,contact Japanese & Inidians
Monarchy to C for 180g
Currency to C for 120g
contact B,Constrcution to C for Republic
Mono to C for 1gpt,30g
Polytheism to J for wmap,60g
Currency to J for 100g
Construction to J for 1gpt,1g
Literature to I for wmap,3gpt,2g
Math to I for 2gpt
Poly to I for 4gpt
Monarchy to I for 8gpt
Republic to B for wmap,5gpt,30g
Mono to F for furs,wmap,3gpt,17g
Republic to Z for wmap,4gpt,5g
Republic to G for wmap,22g
Construction to G for 3gpt,1g
Contact J&I to G for 1gpt
revolution
925 Government to Republic
875 French build Great Wall
wines to J for wmap,horses,1gpt,100g
wines to I for incense,wmap,2gpt,20g
Republic to I for 8g,5gpt
850 size 12
825 Feudalism
725 wines to F for silks,1gpt,10g
Zulus build Hanging Gardens
690 100g,tmap tribute to Babylonians
610 Theology
450 Chivalry
370 Education

The GL expires and another flurry of trades follows, financed by gold saved by the GL.

1gpt,1070g to F for Astronomy
Astronomy to B for 160g,10gpt
Education to Z for wmap,3gpt,4g
Education to G for 60g
Astronomy to G for 11g,16gpt
1gpt,20g to G for worker
Education,Chivalry,1gpt,170g to C for Engineering
Astronomy,wmap,670g to C for Invention
Astronomy to J for 15g,7gpt
Engineering to J for 1gpt
Education to I for 50g,wmap
Astronomy to I for 15g,5gpt
Engineering to I for iron,1gpt
Invention to I for 17gpt
Engineering to B for 10g,6gpt
1gpt,30g to F for furs
Engineering to Z for 1gpt,50g
Engineering to G for 40g
Invention to G for 10g,4gpt

I used Sistine to hold shields for Copernicus, and overdid it a bit, as there were over 100 extra, but better safe than sorry with a vital science wonder. The French had already been building it for a few turns.

350 Copernicus’s Observatory
Germans build Sun Tzu’s and the Chinese build the Great Lighthouse

This was the turn for wonders, I suppose. Not to be outdone, the French are next, 2 turns later.

310 library, French build Sistine Chapel
270 university
230 colosseum
wines to C for wmap,6gpt,11g
wines to I for incense,4gpt
wines to J for Music Theory
wines to F for silk,8gpt
170 Music Theory as tribute to Germans
150 Gunpowder
Music Theory to B for 15g,6gpt
Gunpowder to B for wmap,9gpt
Music to Z for 60g,wmap
130 French build Leonardo’s
90 cathedral

With science and happy improvements rushed and ready, its time to save up for Newton’s.

70 tmap,38g tribute to Babylonians


AD years


70 1gpt,160g to F for Navigation
130 Chemistry
Chemistry to f for Banking,Printing Press,6gpt
1gpt,460g to F for Democracy
Banking to B for 40g,4gpt
Democracy to B for 16gpt
Democracy to Z for 60g,9gpt
Chemistry to Z for 2g,12gpt
Chemistry to C for 3g,9gpt
Chemistry to J for horses,wmap,1gpt,17g
Printing to I for 40g,2gpt
Democracy to I for 9g,9gpt
150 French build JS Bach’s
210 Gunpowder, Chinese build Magellan’s
wines to J for ivory,6gpt
wines to C for 8gpt
Gunpowder to I for 40g,5gpt
Chemistry to I for incense,9g,7gpt
wines to Z for 50g,2gpt
wines,3gpt,850g to F for Economics
Economics to Z for 30g,20gpt
Economics to B for 20g,13gpt
Economics to J for iron,5g,1gpt
290 Physics
1gpt,270g to B for Free Artistry
330 Free Art,Physics to I for Metallurgy
400 Theory of Gravity
410 Newton’s University
Theory of G to Z for 2workers,4gpt
420 worker
430 worker
wines to G for 50g,20gpt
1gpt,180g to F for Military Tradition
Theory of G to I for incense,2g,9gpt
wines to C for 8gpt
wines to J for ivory,12gpt
440 worker
450 worker, French build Shakespeare’s, Japanese build Smith’s
460 worker
470 worker
480 worker, Magnetism, Nationalism as freebie
Magnetism to Z for 11g,9gpt
Nationalism to Z for 10gpt
Nationalism to C for 8gpt
Magnetism to I for 3g,3gpt
Nationalism to I for wmap,5g,13gpt
490 78g,tmap tribute to Babylonians
520 barracks
550 1gpt,630g to F for Steam Power
1gpt,90g to F for coal
Steam to B for iron,saltpeter,wmap,13gpt,30g
Steam to Z for wmap,4gpt,30g
Steam to I for horses,11gpt,40g
Steam to C for 13g,wmap
1gpt,30g to B for furs
590 marketplace
600 worker
610 worker, Chinese destroyed by the Japanese

The other two major players are the French, who are always out ahead of me in research and the Babylonians. In between these two and being squeezed are the Zulu and the Germans. The Indians are off to the side, and way behind everyone else in tech.

630 wines to I for incense,4gpt
640 immortals
wines to F for 18gpt
650 worker
660 worker
690 coastal fortress

After Electricity, a little more wheeling and dealing to acquire techs before building Theory of Evolution.

740 Electricity
Electricity to B for Industrialization,silks,dyes,9gpt
Electricity,50g to J for Espionage
Espionage,630g to B for Communism
Communism to J for 60g,33gpt
Communism to Z for wmap,17gpt,80g
Industrialization to Z for 5g,5gpt
Democracy to G for 40g
Industrialization to I for 40g
750 factory
760 30g,1gpt to B for furs
780 Electricity to I for 27gpt,70g,wmap
Espionage to I for 19gpt,5g
820 Medicine

Again, I am trailing the French to every tech, making them less valuable for trading as the French have beat me to doing this. Soon I have to pay them big bucks for more techs.

850 wines to I for 7gpt
860 Babylonians destroy the Zulu
wmap,2050g to F for Corporation,Scientific Method
Method to J for 150g,28gpt
Method to B for 30g,26gpt
Corporation to I for wmap,13gpt,70g
Method to I for 3g,9gpt
880 French build Universal Suffrage
890 Indians destroy last German city

Now I am a turn away from building Theory of Evolution, but the French are ahead by 3 techs, 2 of which they have shared with the Japanese and Babylonians. I don’t want to just get even with the Theory of Evolution, because I’ll just fall way behind by the time we all get to the Modern Age, so I decide to take a calculated risk by stealing Refining in a careful, but not “safely” way from the French. This espionage succeeds and set me up to use Theory of Evolution to get two “fresh” techs instead of “used” ones.

900 Refining to J for Replaceable Parts,4gpt
Refining to B for Sanitation,20g,10gpt

With Refining I was able to trade for the other two techs I lacked just prior to building the Theory of Evolution. I think this was a key move, that enabled me to win the game later. In previous games on standard maps, I have always been falling too far behind by the middle of the Industrial Age.

910 Theory of Evolution, Steel, Combustion as freebies
wines to f for 36gpt
Steel to F for 26gpt
Combustion to F for iron,coal,2170g
Steel to J for saltpeter,oil,wmap,17gpt,130g
Combustion to J for 5g,50gpt
Steel to B for horses,13gpt,13g
Sanitation to I for 4g,8gpt

I got my money’s worth out of this wonder. This is my high mark in the game, as I am now collecting 300 gold per turn. I bled the French for as much as possible, but this only slowed them down for a little while. Later in the game, they swooped ahead again in the tech race.

920 hospital
930 worker
940 worker, 8 workers join Persepolis, instant size 20
Combustion to B for dyes,silks,4gpt
wines to J for ivory,25gpt
950 pollution
970 bank
980 1gpt,30g to B for furs
990 infantry
1010 infantry
1020 Atomic Theory
Steel to I for incense,wmap,150g
Combustion to I for 8g,16gpt
Atomic Theory to I for 25gpt
1030 artillery
1040 Babylonians declare war on the French

Now the big war begins, but it doesn’t slow down the rate of French research, because after a little back and forth, the Japanese and the Indians joined the French vs. the Babylonians, making it 3 against 1 and quick work.

1050 cavalry
1070 infantry
1090 infantry
1100 immortals
1110 1gpt,490g to J for oil,iron
1120 wines to F for 32gpt
1480g to F for Electronics
1140 hydro plant, Mass Production
Mass Prod to B for dyes,silks,160g,30gpt
wines to I for 9gpt
Mass Prod to I for 60g,14gpt
1150 pollution
1160 tmap,100g tribute to Japanese
1170 battleship
1180 1gpt,30g to B for furs
rubber to B for 22gpt
930g to F for Flight
1600g to F for Motorized Transportation
1190 battleship
1200 Motorized T to I for rubber,20gpt
Motorized T to B for 15gpt
1gpt,60g to J for spices
1220 tank
1gpt,30g to I for incense
1230 pollution
1240 tank
1250 pollution

The next round of trading brings things into the Modern Age, following the French, as usual.

1255 tank
1gpt,30g to B for silks
1gpt,30g to F for dyes
2300g to F for Radio, Rocketry as my Modern Age freebie
Rocketry to F for saltpeter,horses,wmap,4010g
Radio to J for 600g,32gpt
Rocketry to J for 8g,10gpt
Rocketry to B for 90g,19gpt

Now I did a dumb thing by clicking Rocketry to the Babylonians by accident as a gift.

Rocketry to I for 240g,20gpt
1265 bomber
1270 fighter
1280 tank
1285 1gpt,540g to J for oil,iron
1290 infantry
1300 infantry
1305 courthouse
1gpt,260g to F for aluminum
Space Flight safely stolen from French for 3324g
Space F to J for Amphibious Warfare,420g,23gpt
A War to B for wmap,20g
A War to F for 410g,6gpt
A War to I for 220g
1330 1gpt,30g to J for spices
1335 French build Manhattan Project
1340 Apollo Program
1gpt,30g to I for incense
Space Flight to I for Fission,40gpt
1355 Japanese destroy the Babylonians

The French are my supply of aluminum, uranium, and for that matter, most techs, and we are left alone together on our continent which once held 3 other civs, so it’s a no-brainer that I need to establish a Mutual Protection Pact with them.

1365 70g to French for MPP
1gpt,70g to F for dyes,silks
1370 Computers
Computers to J for saltpeter,horses,wmap,14gpt,160g
1400 France declares war on Japan, French build Hoover Dam
pollution
1gpt,30g to F for furs
1gpt,180g to F for uranium
1405 SETI program
India joins the French vs. the Japanese

The French and Indians kept the Japanese busy, who never came near my city.

1410 research lab
1415 SAM missile battery
1gpt,630g to F for aluminum
1440 1900g to I for Satellites

The Indians and Japanese start on their space ships. The French just fight for now, and keep beating me to techs. If they had concentrated on a space ship they would have won the game about now.

1450 1gpt,30g to I for incense
1455 SS Engine
1470 1gpt,30g to F for dyes,silks
1475 90g to F to maintain MPP, SS Thrusters
1480 Ecology
Ecology to F for Superconductor,2500g
Ecology to I for 880g
1485 SS Fuel Cells
1505 SS Cockpit
1gpt,30g to F for furs

Now the French call off their war with Japan and start making up for lost time, building a SS part every turn or so.

1510 1gpt,280g to F for uranium
1gpt,550g to F for aluminum (what I really meant to do!)
Ecology to J for peace,15gpt (I don’t want to be the only one left at war vs. the Japanese!)
1gpt,40g to J for ivory
1525 SS Life Support System
1535 SS Docking Bay
1545 Mass Transit (pollution is icky)
1550 Synthetic Fibers
1555 1gpt,30g to I for incense
1900g to I for Nuclear Power
1575 1gpt,100g to F for silks,dyes
1580 France declares war on the Japanese again, MPP renewed for 170g
1590 SS Exterior Casing
1605 SS Stasis Chamber
1615 SS Storage/Supply
1620 3010g to F for Laser
1625 SS Planetary Lounge, French build last SS part, but not quite in time, LAUNCH

Xerxes the Great, 2810 points

As in all OCC wins, so far, launches have only been possible because the AI have not taken advantage by building ships as fast they could. Good thing for us, because we might still be puzzling about how we could possibly build parts in time with only 1 city, if they went after launches they way they pursue wonders. The turn before launch is below, see TT's game for a copy of the start.

[Jaguar]

I've found two of my old civ2 strategy friends. many of them have just disappeared though I am in my first game of civ3, and I'm totally romping the ai (I started on cheiftain, which was probably a mistake) anyway, good job, solo. I'm looking at a 1700's launch time. Resources must be inefficient to get from the AI in civ3 OCC. I'll have to try it though.

[solo]

Welcome and happy to see you here Fire Dragon! It is too bad that so many regulars and good friends from the CivII strategy forum are missing here.

Resources in short supply can be very hard to obtain in OCC, creating an additional challenge to playing this way in CivIII. It is not a matter of when you will launch in CivIII, but more a matter of IF you can, especially on the highest levels!

[ToeTruck]

Hi,

Has anyone tried the patch in an OCC environment?

I haven't, so I can't say much that is intelligently thought out. "Better to be silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt." Heh.

That said, I'll try it soon.

- TT

[solo]

Not yet, but I've heard that the AI may not trade gold/turn for techs any more. If true, that will really make things interesting.

[Dashel]

Sorry for the newbie question in this interesting discussion. But what does the anagram OCC stand for?

Edit: Found it. One City Challange. You'd think I would have looked in the Glossary =P

[ToeTruck]

I'm not saying OCC launches were easy or anything under 1.16, but 1.17 makes it way more difficult.

Since downloading the patch, I've played two Standard Deity games in which I built the Great Library around 1200BC and left the Ancient Times *way* before I ever had before. Yet, I still got my butt kicked down the line.

Hat's off to the Firaxis team. Aside from a couple of crash bugs, this patch is a keeper.

That said, I'm looking for your thoughts. As I see it, the two big hurdles to overcome in OCC are:

1) No mortgages. Under 1.17, no rival ever offered me gold per turn for a tech or luxury.

2) Very aggressive tech trading among the AI rivals. Funny thing is this is *exactly* what is needed to get early launch dates, but in my games, I was always the odd man out.

Ideas are welcome; write when you can.

Thanks.

- TT

[solo]

TT,

I have just downloaded the patch and will give this a try.

(This is a little off-topic, but dare I admit that I have been a bit pre-occuppied honing the skills of Gary Golf?)

A few brief questions:

1) Were you ever able to learn any tech(s) before the AI?

2) Did they still charge an arm and a leg for new techs, or does the fact that they immediately trade around new ones make them cheaper to purchase?

3) Just how far ahead of you did they get in techs?

4) Did you use a start generated after installing 1.17f, or one of the older ones? If you used a good 1.17f start, could you please attach it?

5) Was there any noticeable change in AI aggressiveness after 1.17f?

Before even beginning, my thoughts are that being able to get substantial gpt payments was a major factor in our previous successes, allowing us to keep even in the tech race. We have now lost that leverage and even worse is the fact the the AI are even faster than before due to increased sharing of techs. Kind of a double whammy for OCC fans.

I will try out a totally new idea, as I wouldn't expect to improve upon what you have done, by retrying our previous methods of success.

[ToeTruck]

I'd be very interested in what your ideas are, solo. Right now, I'm a bit stymied. I think with a couple of good luxuries to trade you might be able to keep the revenue coming, but losing gpt for techs is a real hardship.

To answer your questions:

1) Because I was Scientifc, I got my freebies in time to trade, but didn't get much for them, map + 100 or so gold, but that's about it. I don't think I ever researched a tech before anyone else.

2) Yes, they definitely charged me more than they would pay themselves.

3) I got so far behind in techs that the "catch-up" effect from the Great Library left me very little to trade. Under 1.16f, I was able to trade techs like Currency and Polytheism for handsome gains. No longer.

Also, I noticed that AI tech path goes immediately through Education once the human player gets the Great Library. In the past, I was able to get Gunpowder, Chivalry, and even sometimes Chemistry. This time, I only got Engineering.

Plus, when I did get Education (through GL), only one rival didn't have it and I got squat in a trade. Way different.

4) I used one start from 1.16 and one start from 1.17. I think my 117 start was tainted because I had the wrong download at first, so I definitely would not use it.

I'm back to the "mucking around with experiments" stage. Unless I get a whopper of a start, I think keeping even (even with the GL) will be difficult. I can't believe it's impossible, but 1.17 certainly made it harder.

Later.

- TT

[solo]

TT,

I just finished a trial game using one of the 1.16 starts, and report many similar things happening, but there were a few significant differences, so I will summarize how my game went. I used the start (g2.zip in this thread), with an island setup on a standard map, but with only 4 civs, playing as the Greeks on my own island:

1) The first part of the game I built the Colossus and the Great Library, with an almost identical experience to yours with the latter wonder. After that, I decided to keep my own science at zero, and try to save gold to trade for techs. So instead of going for Copernicus and science wonders I built Sistine and tried, but failed to complete Shakespeare's. The only city improvements I bothered with were a granary, harbor, marketplace, bank and happiness ones, hoping to build up as much cash as possible. I also had some wine plus one iron resource to trade with.

2) During the period following Education, I did not have much trouble at all, keeping up in techs, and was able to trade for quite a few with just my luxuries and single source of iron. My city was only accumulating 70 or so gold per turn, sometimes going as high as 125 or so after good trades. Some typical trades:

iron,70g to Aztecs for Banking & Astronomy

wines to France for Gunpowder,11gpt

Here I thought I was picking up techs pretty cheaply when compared to 1.16 costs, but maybe part of the reason it was easy for me to keep up in this stage of the game may be because of the island setup and limited number of AI. The Germans were almost finished off by the French and Aztecs pretty early on, and then left alone with 2 cities for the rest of the game. So, for this part of the game, I accumulated about 4000 gold while lagging about 2 techs or so behind the Aztecs and French.

3) After trading for Industrialization for wines and 340g in 1070, I built a factory and used Suffrage to start pre-building Theory of Evolution. Trading was still lucrative, as I was able to pick up Replaceable Parts, Espionage, Scientific Method, plus some gems and spices for good measure, in exchange for just 80g and some iron! A little more trading and, two turns later I built ToE and became the tech leader getting Steel and Combustion as freebies. This was, no doubt, the high point of the game.

4) From here on out tech trading became more similar to what I was used to pre-patch. I was very much surprised to sell Steel to the Aztecs for a whopping 40gpt! Combustion went to the French for 27gpt and other goodies. Along with this pleasant surprise was a nasty one a little later when the AI began charging typical pre-patch amounts for techs they learned on the way to the Modern Age. It took some substantial cash trades to be able to enter the Moderrn Age at the same time as the AI. During this period I also used minimum research to help defray the costs of some techs. Typical trades here were for wine plus a few hundred gold for techs both AI knew.

5) Just at the end of the Industrial Age, it cost me 3000 cash to get radio from the French to boost me into the Modern Age first. My freebie of Ecology allowed me to get a good portion of that back. During the first part of the Modern Age, I kept pace, but no other resources appeared on my island. To make things worse, the way the AI were dispersed on the map did not provide any multiple copies of aluminum, rubber or uranium to trade for, so a SS win was looking very unlikely. I sent out some workers and a galleon to road up some of these for the Aztecs, but this just pissed them off and they attacked, took Athens, and the game was over. Had I access to more resources, I think I might have had a real chance in this game of building a SS first.


So, to conclude, I would say a start needs a good set of luxuries, plus access to one or more good resources in order to make a go of it. The Great Library is a must, but building up super science does not seem pay off like it used to. Being the first into new ages is another must, plus in this game I was able to gift a lot of tech to the backward, but scientific Germans, and take advantage of their new age freebies. Oddly enough, I think chances are better in 1.17 the bigger the maps get, just the reverse of 1.16. Just don't bother to compete in science, since techs come fast enough through trade. Let the bigger map slow down the AI tech rates closer to your own 40 turns/tech! I would say that at least one good strategic resource to trade with is another must.

[kimmygibler]

Anyone know if disabling all victories other than launch will make the OCC harder or easier? In other words with all other victories disabled, will the ai actually rush to build the launch? Or will it just act as usual, thus giving the player a further advantage?

[solo]

Never tried it, but probably harder. We usually turn off Diplomatic, Domination and Cultural in our games here, only leaving on Conquest and Space Race to resemble the situation in CivII, where OCC play originated.

[ToeTruck]

I just had the good fortune to win an OCC Deity game on a standard map. The 1.17 patch is way harder than the 1.16 patch, but using solo's Great Library strategy, I managed to do fairly well.

Unfortunately, I accidentally deleted my log while doing hard drive maintenance, but I have attached my start position and the last save game. Hopefully, I can find a few minutes to rebuild my log from save games along the way.

In the meantime, here are the key points:

1) I played the Greeks. Start position had no luxuries, a bunch of plains, a good river, and four cattle.

2) I managed to build both Colossus and Great Library, plus the Science Wonders (Cope's, Newt's, and SETI).

3) The Great Library triggered a Golden Age. I had never seen this before in an OCC game. Since I was already at size 11 or 12, I was able to crank out the city improvements.

4) I spent most of the Middle Ages and Industrial Ages in "catch up" mode. Once the Great Library expired, I quickly fell *way* behind again in tech, but was able to research tech every 4 to 6 turns.

5) My rivals fought relentlessly with each other from the Industrial Ages on. By game's end, only the Romans and Iroquois remained and 1/4 of the board was empty.

6) I never received gold per turn for a tech until Rocketry which netted me a bunch, as did one other Modern tech (but I forget which).

7) I stole tech twice: Space Flight and Synthetic Fibers.

8) I built the Apollo Program in 1180AD, but didn't launch until 1784(!). I didn't have a ton of Science and my rivals were so embroiled in war that research was very slow. The 1180 Apollo, though, is quite encouraging; I might try replaying from that point to see if I can pull the launch date in (I attached that save game as well if anyone is interested).

That's about it. I feel good about this game, but see plenty of room for improvement. Talk to you all later.

- TT

[solo]

TT,

Nice job! I was pretty sure a win was possible. I have downloaded your files and will also try it with the start that you used. I thought it would be possible with the help of the Great Library, since once you catch up, it is not that hard keeping even, especially if the AI are constantly at war, as in your game.

After being distracted too long with SimGolf, I have started only my second game with 1.17f, using korn's mod, since I promised him before to help test it out. Although this game is FCC rather than OCC, some changes in the mod make it even harder for the human at deity in the beginning of the game, but I was able to build the Great Library, but missed out on Colossus.

After that I found it easier to stay even by not researching, but by accumulating some cash instead, to use to trade for techs. This works well until the middle of the Industrial Age, when the AI start charging a lot more for new techs. However, I was able to afford all new ones before building the Theory of Evolution which netted two fresh techs and hefty mortgages from all the AI.

Meanwhile, I departed a bit from my economic only strategy detailed in a previous post here. I have been adding all scientific improvements to my cities and ToE mortgages have now allowed me to max out the research rate just at the point in a game where just buying techs is becoming too expensive. Although I am lacking Copernicus and Newton's, they are not so vital in a FCC game, so prospects are good.

So far, in one and a half games, I have found techs inexpensive to trade for up until the middle of the Industrial Age. You might want to experiment with this in your next game, as you say that you had trouble keeping up during that phase in your own game.

Must have been sweet to win after such a discouraging first attempt! Again you are first to the OCC finish line with 1.17f! Congrats!

[solo]

TT,

I just finished my game using your start, and was also fortunuate enough to get a launch, since if the AI had been trying to win this way, no less than 4 of them would have beaten me to it many turns before I had my own ship built.

I built the same wonders as you, but was also able to add Theory of Evolution, which gave me and everyone else a boost into the Modern Age early. While researching Computers, I noticed the Iroquois had learned Space Flight, so I stole that and finished Apollo in 1090 AD while waiting to finish researching Computers. A new experience for me was using an SS part to store shields to build SETI!

I was earlier to Apollo, because the AI remained peaceful for the most part, until 1140 AD, after which it was never ending war among them. However, they had already researched most SS techs, allowing me to pick each one up in about 15 turns or less by following after them. This led to a launch in 1480 AD, and resulted in my best score to date, of 3716 and a rating of "Alex the Magnificent."

In stark contrast to this game was my FCC try using korn's mod. The AI wasted no time at all beating me to a launch. I'm not sure why they acted so differently, as both games went very much the same way.

In comparison to pre 1.17f games, these have gone at a torrid pace! The usual slowdown during the Industrial Ages used to provide the human player time to get his city up to size 20 and to build a small, but decent, defensive force. I only had time to build 3 infantry to go along with my 3 warriors, and Athens did not reach full size and production until after Apollo was built!

I was unlucky, as usual, with resources, only getting my own iron, and this was exhausted 2 turns after I was able to FINALLY trade for coal very late in the Industrial Age! So whenever I saw a chance to rent some rubber, uranium, or aluminum, I took it, even if there was not an immediate need!

I think my newer policy of only turning up research when I felt I had to hurry to a new advance, worked well for me this game. This provided a lot more gold than usual for trading and just before building Theory of Gravity, I was able to buy Steel and Refining at premium prices. Two new techs from ToE were sold for hefty mortgages, giving me back all my gold and then some more.

Attached is a save of the turn before launch. I will add a log to this post after it is typed up.

[ToeTruck]

Excellent game Solo! I'm mighty impressed with a 1480 launch; that's the best I've seen so far.

I knew the position had some kick to it (because of the four cattle), but I didn't think it would move along as well as it did.

I like your idea of limiting Science. Under 1.16f, I usually researched at 100% unless I needed happiness. Under 1.17, I played catch up a lot. I think your modification is an excellent way to go. I'll give that a shot when I can.

Good job with Theory of Evolution, too. I was so bummed when I missed out; that might have made a difference in my game

Also, I'd like to compare resources if you have the chance; in my game, the constant bickering between my neighbors left a huge power void around my city which allowed my border to expand pretty far. At one point or another, I was producing Wines, Iron, Saltpeter, Coal, Aluminum, Uranium, and even Rubber (through a colony). I didn't need to trade for much.

These 1.17 games do fly. They're a bunch of fun to play. Keep me posted with your other successes. Again, great job.

Later.

- TT

[solo]

TT,

I loaded up your pre-launch save and took a look. What a difference between the two games! In mine the Iroquois, rather than the Romans became dominant, but then everyone else ganged up on them, and after that many teepees tumbled.

As for resources, the saltpeter and iron to the north were mine for a few turns after nearby cities were razed, and your aluminum was where my first source of iron disappeared from. After building SS fuel cells, some uranium popped up in the woods to the southwest. On your map, I noticed some to the southeast, instead. Interesting, how resources can differ this much with the same map. If you load my game, you will see what I mean. I also had game-long access to that little vinery to the southwest, where I used a warrior to help crush grapes to make the wine.

If you were partial to the Persians, before, I think that Greek Golden Age might have helped convince you which civ was tailor made for OCC, since the Greek GA coincides very nicely with the need to add the many city improvements suddenly available due to the Great Library! It surprised me, too, the first time it happened, in a previous game.

I think our launches might have been much closer together if the AI had stopped to pre-research all the SS techs for you, too, before going on the rampage. Another difference was my success with the Theory of Evolution, which I went all out for after entering the Industrial Age. Somewhere along the line, Firaxis has enhanced this wonder, allowing the player to choose the free advances, rather than just allotting the 2 crummiest ones available.

My log follows.

BC years

3950 Athens
3800 warrior
3650 warrior
3500 warrior
3450 Alphabet to Iroquois for Pottery

I was working on Colossus, but Pottery allows a quick granary just before size 3, so I switch to that to speed Athens’ growth.

3000 granary
2950 Size 3
2750 Size 4
2670 Contact Iroquois to the French for Ceremonial Burial,25g
2510 Writing, Size 5
2390 40g to F for Masonry

This will allow saving Great Library shields using the Pyramids. Meanwhile science is maxed out to get to Literature ASAP to make the switch.

2230 Size 6
2110 Colossus, Size 7
1870 contact Egypt
1700 Literature, hut: Mysticism

Now I am sweating it out, since I may not be able to finish the Great Library before one of the AI. Most games it is done by about 1500 BC, but this game it will take a little longer than that.

1625 contact Americans
1600 contact Germans
1550 Size 8
1450 1gpt,50g to F for contact Aztecs
1gpt,40g to Az for contact Romans
1400 10g to R for Warrior Code
1150 Great Library, Golden Age triggered
1125 The Wheel, Iron Working, Mathematics, Philosophy, Code of Laws, Map Making, Horseback Riding, Polytheism, Currency, Republic (revolution), Monarchy, Construction, Monotheism, Feudalism
1025 government to Republic (4 turns of GA wasted, oh well!)

During this phase of the game I only kept science turned up part way, in order to earn some extra gold. It was more efficient to lag behind a bit and buy or learn techs once all the AI knew them. In pre 1.117f games, science was maxed out almost all the time to get to new techs first in order to sell them to the AI for big mortgages. Since 1.17f, the AI do not give much gpt for techs until about mid way through the Industrial Age.

900 Theology, Chivalry, marketplace
800 harbor, size 10
790 Engineering
730 temple
710 size 11
690 Golden Age ends
670 Education, size 12
630 colosseum
590 library
570 Invention
550 university, 23g to I for furs
24g to E for dyes, 50g to G for silks
470 Astronomy
390 Aztecs destroyed by the Romans
270 Gunpowder, 1gpt,220g to I for furs,Chemistry
210 Copernicus’s Observatory
1gpt,80g to F for Navigation, Navigation to G for Music Theory,4g
1gpt,80g to I for Banking, 24g to E for dyes
50 Physics

AD years

110 60g to R for wines
150 Theory of Gravity
170 Sir Isaac Newton’s University
1gpt,250g to I for Printing Press,Metallurgy,Magnetism
Nationalism as freebie, 24g to I for furs
1gpt,30g to R for silks
180 worker
270 wines to I for Steam Power,3gpt
Steam Power,1gpt,10g to E for Democracy,Military Tradition,Economics
1g to E for Free Artistry

Ha! This is the first time I’ve been able to buy a tech for 1 gold. I wasn’t aware that if you waited long enough for off-path techs, that they were this cheap.

Not so much fun was the fact that no one had an extra coal to trade now, nor for quite a while to come, which delayed railroads until near the end of the Industrial Age.

290 bank
360 cathedral
380 1gpt,5g to R for wines
390 Industrialization, 1gpt,40g to R for Medicine,Communism
Industrialization to E for Sanitation,tmap,2g

I had been accumulating some shields to build a factory a few turns sooner, to get going on Suffrage, which is perfectly positioned and suited for pre-building the Theory of Gravity. I believe this is made possible because the AI start the wonder immediately upon the discovery of its tech, building it at about my own factory-assisted pace.

I have science maxed out now and until I discover Scientific Method, so that the switch can be made from Suffrage to the Theory of Gravity in time.


400 1gpt,5g to I for furs
460 factory, start to store shields in Suffrage
470 1gpt,5g to E for dyes
510 1gpt,30g to E for silks
520 Electricity, 50g to R for wines
560 1gpt,30g to F for spices
610 1gpt,5g to I for furs

After learning Scientific Method, I’ll switch to Theory of Gravity, which is ready to go. Now I have to scramble to buy up as many outstanding AI techs as I can. It is no time to be shy about making big gpt payments, either, since new techs from ToE will more than make up the difference. I am able to afford everything except Combustion. It’s a testimony to 1.17f AI research speed that they have been able to learn 5 techs that I still lack while still managing to beat me to Electricity and to Scientific Method by a few turns’ margin.

650 Scientific Method,
150g,1gpt to R for Corporation,Replaceable Parts
41gpt to F for Steel, 18gpt,640g to A for Refining
660 Theory of Evolution, Atomic Theory and Electronics as freebies
Atomic Theory to I for Combustion,17g,56gpt
Electronics to I for 93gpt (yes, that’s right and it IS 1.17f!)
Atomic Theory to F for 20g,33gpt
Atomic Theory to G for rubber,20g,7gpt
Atomic Theory to A for tmap,170g,8gpt

Who said the AI no longer pay big for techs?

670 1gpt,20g to G for worker
Electronics to A for wmap,13g,13gpt
680 Scientific Method to E for dyes,wmap
690 1gpt,20g to G for worker
730 hydro plant, Steel to E for silks
740 1gpt,160g to I for coal (finally!)
Combustion to R for wmap,18g,3gpt
760 1gpt,280g to F for iron

Sure enough, my own source of iron runs out, now that it’s needed to make railroads!

770 hospital, 1gpt,30g to F for spices
780 worker

After building ToE, I noticed that none of the AI had bothered to research Espionage. I have seen this happen before in other games, where once the AI “forget” to research an off-path tech, the possibility of doing this never ever occurs to them again. So I pick it to do myself, figuring it better to be first to a slightly antiquated tech, rather than being second to a newer one. I also plan to use the Intelligence Agency to store shields towards SETI. One more reason I want it, is because I’m guessing that maybe the lack of Espionage and spies has kept the AI unusually peaceful during this Industrial Age.

790 Espionage, barracks
Espionage,1gpt,280g to F for Mass Production
wines to G for 250g,2gpt
Espionage,1gpt,470g to G for Motorized Transportation
Espionage to I for 14gpt, Espionage to A for 40g,2gpt

Espionage pays off pretty well, too, netting some extra gold plus two new techs by trade.

820 infantry
830 1gpt,5g to I for furs
840 courthouse
860 infantry, 200g to G for rubber
890 infantry, Electronics to E for dyes,wmap,17g
Radio, 1gpt,960g to F for Flight, Rocketry as freebie
Rocketry to A for 40g,10gpt, Rocketry to F for 530g

Well, maybe the side trip to Espionage was not the best idea, since I trailed 2 AI into the Modern Age. As a consequence, my freebie of Rocketry did not pay off that well.

920 Flight to E for silks
950 1gpt,30g to I for ivory

Now I’m researching Computers, which will take almost 40 turns, and while doing so, I monitored the AI tech progress, which was starting to alarm me a bit. They had Fission quickly, and a little later had Ecology. After seeing the Iroquois pick up Space Flight, I decided to take a chance with a careful theft of it, since I still had about 20 turns left to learning Computers. I lacked enough gold for a safe theft.

1060 Space Flight stolen from I carefully for 1868g
Space Flight to G for aluminum,Ecology,50g,28gpt
Space Flight to A for 80g,Fission,52gpt
1080 Ecology to Egypt for wmap,3g,dyes
1090 Apollo Program
1120 Fission to E for silks
1140 SS cockpit, All AI declare war against the mighty Iroquois nation

I am sure that if this war had not begun, one of the AI would have built a ship long before I would have managed it.

1160 Mass Transit
1170 1gpt,30g to I for ivory
Space Flight to E for 100g,8gpt
saltpeter,iron to R for 130g
1190 1gpt,30g to F for spices

Computers! Finally, and I was most surprised that I was first to research this, because in the meantime the AI had acquired Synthetic Fibers, Satellites and Superconductor in spite of all out warfare. Being alone and first to Computers was a lucky break, because this granted extra trading power.

1210 Computers
Computers to I for 420g,45gpt
Computers to G for 1500g
Computers to A for 80g,wmap
1230 1gpt,30g to G for incense
1250 1gpt,190g to E for uranium
1265 1gpt,630g to E for aluminum,dyes
1270 SETI Program
1280 research lab
1285 1gpt,30g to E for silks, 1gpt,30g to I for furs
1300 Superconductor
Superconductor to E for Satellites

I had no shortage of SS techs, just a backlog of SS parts to build as soon as possible. Athens 80+ shield capacity made this go fairly quickly, though.

1325 SS engine, 1gpt,30g to F for spices
1335 SS fuel cells, 50g to I for furs
1340 290g to G for rubber
1345 50g to G for incense
1355 Synthetic Fibers
Synthetic Fibers,240g to E for Nuclear Power
50g to F for spices

I was able to trade for quite a few SS techs, which I bet TT was forced to learn in his game. The ones I had to learn came at quite a beaker discount, too. I think the timing of the start of the big AI war was what made such a big difference between our launch dates.

1360 1gpt,400g to F for uranium (no longer needed, but the French armor nearby looks a bit menacing)

1370 1gpt,1140g to E for dyes,aluminum

Thankfully, this is the last time I’ll be paying inflated prices for aluminum. It is so much easier when having your own supply of it! After SS exterior casing, no other resources are required.

1380 SS exterior casing
1390 1gpt,30g to E for silks
1405 SS thrusters
1425 SS life support
1445 SS stasis chamber, 1gpt,80g to G for furs,incense
1450 SS docking bay
1455 1gpt,30g to F for spices
1465 SS storage/supply
1475 Laser
1480 SS planetary party lounge, launch

Score: 3716, Alex the Magnificent

[seraphin]

long time ago...
anybody did it with 1.21f ?

[ToeTruck]

Seraphin,

I've tried a bunch of times with 1.21f but never have enough gold to buy the resources I need for the end game while still continuing research.

I start to fall way behind in the Industrial Age. When I go for Sanitation to get above size 12, the AI snags Combustion, Steel, Corporation, *and* beats me to the Theory of Evolution. Once that happens, I can't catch up.

The strategies that worked with 1.17 and older versions just don't seem to work under 1.21. If anyone has had some success, I'd love to hear about it.

Thanks.

- TT

[seraphin]

it is extremely more difficult - yeah...
...i could start weapin when i read how solo was able to trade with the ai on 1.17
that way of makin it has in fact become impossible on 1.21f.

my success:
http://www.civ2-forum.gamigo.de/show...&threadid=5716
a few other occ links:
http://www.civ2-forum.gamigo.de/show...&threadid=5420
http://www.civ2-forum.gamigo.de/show...&threadid=5173
http://www.civ2-forum.gamigo.de/show...&threadid=5611
http://www.civ2-forum.gamigo.de/show...&threadid=5529
dont mind if our forum is down (dont try between 4am and 8am CET) just try again the next day (we got probs wth prov.)

(my succesful attempt was lead by the idea of not being quick but slowing down the ai - in that game i had radio,combustion when the ai was at corporation and scientific methods.
in earlier attempts i used the old strat and failed:
i got all 6 wonders nearly every time (col,gb,cope,newt,toe,seti) but always failed with folowing the ai through modern times...
...i also tried to play with the starting positions that are posted here,but failed to compete with the ais early aggression (they either killed me or build GL before i could (likewise wether i build enough defense or not))
so they are useless - dont try them.
another thing: dont try the greeks its senceless without industrious (i prefer persians or egyptians).

[ToeTruck]

Slowing down the AI...excellent idea! I never tried playing OCC that way.

I've always approached OCC with a "speed it up" attitude. Under 1.17, you could win by trading and giving away tech expecting to get into a real race for space at the end.

I will have a look at your links to see what I can do.

A couple of other things:

1) Regarding start positions: At least one of the previous posts on this thread was a superior start which led to an 1180AD launch. Did you try that one with your strategy?

2) Regarding preferred civs: I've always prefered the Persians primarily because of the Industrious trait, but the Greeks often worked out very well under 1.17 and older. Why would you play the Egyptians?

3) What strategies do you use to slow down the AI?

Thanks for the post.

- TT

[seraphin]

3)
-i waited for a start with all civs at a small landmass
-i made everyone waging war against everyone
-so i got enough time to build military ,to defnd myself and to build lighthouse to maintain the ai's unability of exploring til nav.

in industrial times i had an mpp with the indians against the amerticans (the indians had more money) ,in modern times i switched cause the americans had the resources.
in fact the atempt nearly failed:
in 2020 or so they gave peace a chance and i hoped i could research the last 2 techs with them as a team...that peace lasted only 3 turns so they didnt research at all and it all became very close to 2050 (dont kwow when i won - look at the save (first link) guess it was 2046).

1)ive tried them all...dont know which one that 1100thing was.either it was greeks or it was medium map, both useless for 1.21f.

2)in fact on 1.17 greeks would be best i imagine.
i tried long time with them ,but finally realised that commercial is filth in occ (industrial is much more important) and that the good starting techs are useless cause i needed the pyramid for saving shields (>GL) nearly every time.
so the egyptians and persians became my new choices.
soon the persians became my fav. cause of the freetechs which are extremly powerfull in 1.21occ.
so while i tried the old method i used to prefer them.
my new way could have been done with the egyptians as well, i only did it with persia cause i got used to play them and i hoped the immortals would help early defense - what they did ...cause i fortunally got iron.
oh...i missed the point of the q -sorry:
if we forget occ for a sec:
i normally tend to play medium,small,tiny maps,small landmass,continents,default rules ,monarch-deity - i like early war and culture very much - so egypt,china,japan and iroq are my fav. civs: sshort i am simply used to play for colossus/GL with the starting techs of the egyptians and there building costs (cheap temple,expensive lib.) - just routine.


-nike

[Aeson]

This thread certainly deserves a bump. CivFanatic's tournament had an OCC game recently, and I just played through it trying for a launch.

Here's a log up to the UN build, and the game that goes along with it. The setup is really nice (I'm sure they edited it), but with the map size and 1.29f rules, research is outrageously difficult. It should be possible on a smaller map size though, even without IronWorks.

Settings:

Babylonians
Standard
60% Pangaea
Deity

[Aeson]

And the humbling finale... France launching in 1345AD.

[ToeTruck]

Hi Aeson,

Can you attach a 4000BC position? I'd love to give it a go.

This thread definitely should be bumped as I would love to talk OCC more frequently. The more brains the better.

Since 1.17f, my efforts have been pretty meager. I have managed Cultural victories on Regent, Monarch, and Emperor and a Space Launch on Regent, but no joy on Deity.

Lately, I've been trying for an un-doctored map leading to a Space Launch on Emperor or Deity, but I can't quite make the transition into the Industrial Ages. Under Deity, I get Colossus, Great Library and Cope's, but am overwhelmed somewhere between Newt's and the Theory of Evolution.

If you have the start position, I'd love to try a UN victory; I've never done that before.

- TT

P.S. I'm playing PTW 1.04f BTW, but I can also play 1.29f for comparison purposes.

[Aeson]

The second attachment has the 4000BC save (I just forgot to include it in the first).

[Aeson]

I didn't think the UN vote through very well. It's actually possible to get the votes the next turn, though I'd never use the sequence of events in a real game... Diplomatic victory through declaring wars right before the vote just doesn't seem right. And declaring war on the AI that has you completely surrounded isn't a good idea usually either!

Anyways:

Lux->100% (gotta cover loss of lots of luxuries, maybe WW)
Declare war on China and France (two UN opponents)
Sign MPP with Germans.
Sign Alliance vs. French with Germans
Sign Alliances vs. French and Chinese with Egyptians
Sign Alliances vs. French and Chinese with Japanese (just to be safe)

End turn, that will get the votes.