I have to say it again: end game unit micromanagement is DRIVING ME NUTS

Alexander's Horse · January 8, 2002, 06:44

Is anything being done about this? I'm talking about a "keep together" or "group movement" command.

If they can't fix it for SP then they MUST fix it for any multiplayer version otherwise a good(ish) game will be USELESS for MP. Player turns will just take too long.

Grumbold · January 8, 2002, 06:52

Generating a maximum of 3 captive workers from any razed city could help a lot but I agree, unless they come up with some fancy simultaneous turn mechanism its going to be hell.

Libertarian · January 8, 2002, 06:53

Some of us are attempting, at this time, to reopen a dialog with Firaxis for the purpose of ascertaining their intentions with respect to many of our concerns, including the one you've mentioned. We don't know at this time whether Firaxis is reading the thread.

Grumbold · January 8, 2002, 07:12

Sorry Lib, but if I were working for Firaxis there is nothing whatsoever that would persuade me to respond to that thread. It's just criticising them for electing to stay silent until they have something ready to implement worth announcing. They have been hounded so mercilessly over shipping the game without multiplayer that it is the only sensible course for them to take. Nobody at Firaxis is paid to surf the Civ 3 sites being helpful so the only place you can expect them to respond is in the "Ask the civ team" column. By all means criticise them for failing to update that for 2 months - assuming anyone is bothering to send them questions instead of demanding answers to any number posts buried on other sites.

Ecthy · January 8, 2002, 07:18

Alexander's Horse, you used to be a great fan of Civ2. I can't remember there were any decent macromanagement options in Civ2

Libertarian · January 8, 2002, 07:26

Quote:

Nobody at Firaxis is paid to surf the Civ 3 sites being helpful so the only place you can expect them to respond is in the "Ask the civ team" column.

That stands in direct contradiction to Dan's own statement found in the thread. They aren't paid, but they do surf. These days, they seem particularly fond of... well... sites where there is an abundance of Intelgamesish users.

Furthermore, the thread I referenced opens a dialog without undue criticism and gives Firaxians a way to reenter while saving face. The crux of it is this: if they were willing to admit they were wrong in making overreaching promises, they might be willing to admit they were wrong in deciding to shut everyone out completely. It seems reasonable to position one's business in a less extremist stance.

MrWhereItsAt · January 8, 2002, 07:33

How 'bout we try sucking up?

{{ Hi Firaxis, sorry we're so b*tchy, I guess that's just us fickle consumers!

You are God and we are mere worms at your feet, but we beg you - please grant us these few pitiful enhancements to your Magnificent Creation.

We'll even throw in yin as a sacrifice..

(Sorry yin, nothing personal, but you have committed heresy against the Almighty and must be sacrificed to appease our Lords)}}

So, whaddaya think? No, oh well, path of reason it is, I guess...

Grumbold · January 8, 2002, 07:37

You could try sending that compendium of questions to ask the civ team and see what happens. If you've made it to Dan's ignore list then he'll never read your thread let alone respond to it (and it still reads as hostile to me). In his free time he's perfectly entitled to surf where he wants and post what he wants. Except, of course, items which would break any agreements of non-disclosure with their publishers.

yin26 · January 8, 2002, 08:05

If Firaxis is Yang, surely sacrificing Yin would end the universe or something. Yeah.

MrWhereItsAt · January 8, 2002, 08:08

Aren't there another 25 yins anyway?

Or did you achieve Transcendence with them all to become - Uberyin.

Libertarian · January 8, 2002, 08:13

yin26

MrWhereItsAt · January 8, 2002, 08:15

Yeeaahhh... Sacrifice one, 25 more somehwere!

yin26 · January 8, 2002, 08:22

You see, 2*6 = 12 and 1*2 = 2
12*2 = 24
2*4= 8

26-8=18

18-8 = 10

1 * 0 = ZERO

Get it. Removing Yin leaves the world with NOTHING!

MrWhereItsAt · January 8, 2002, 08:30

Damn... as a physicist I can't argue with the numbers.

So.. to keep you from leaving and ending everything, should we be sucking up to you?

yin26 · January 8, 2002, 08:32

Naw...I thrive off of abuse.

MrWhereItsAt · January 8, 2002, 08:36

Then you have found a rich feeding-ground.
Night all.

Ecthy · January 8, 2002, 09:57

Quote:

Originally posted by yin26
If Firaxis is Yang, surely sacrificing Yin would end the universe or something. Yeah.

No, if Firaxis is Yang then it means we have to be careful of their Police-State / Planned Economy / (Power or Knowledge)-oriented policies

But we know they can't spread too far, due to high corruption

ACooper · January 8, 2002, 10:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Libertarian
Some of us are attempting, at this time, to reopen a dialog with Firaxis for the purpose of ascertaining their intentions with respect to many of our concerns, including the one you've mentioned. We don't know at this time whether Firaxis is reading the thread.

You call this reopening dialogue? This thread where you ripped into Dan?

No wonder you don't get a response.

Zealot · January 8, 2002, 11:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Ecthelion
But we know they can't spread too far, due to high corruption

If you're serious, you're doing some serious accusations.
If you're joking, you're not funny. At least not on this one.

Libertarian · January 8, 2002, 11:07

Ripped into Dan?

Do you mean this, where I applauded him?

Quote:

First and foremost, I applaud Dan for the plain and unequivocal language.

Or this, where I acknowledged his openness to the community?

Quote:

As I see it, this means that Firaxis has not closed its mind to the playing community.

Or this, where I extended him my empathy?

Quote:

In fairness to Dan, I wonder whether his problem is that the questions are so spread out all over the boards.

Or this, where I accepted culpability for being ignored?

Quote:

I don't doubt that I appear to be a person whose mind is made up.

Or this, where I extended sympathy for the obvious plight of Firaxis developers?

Quote:

My heart truly goes out to developers who must work under these conditions.

Or this, where I believe I summarized fairly the theme of Dan's statement?

Quote:

What they don't want to do is make any statements that can be perceived as promises of delivery.

Or this, where I opened a door to allow him to assuage our concerns?

Quote:

Between those two extremes, I think you will find that people like me, Venger, Yin, and others, would greatly appreciate something along these lines: We agree with you that unit movement is responsible for a lot of late-game tedium, and that is one of the items that we're looking at, but here is why it might be problematic [...snip...].

Or perhaps, was it a later remark after the Opening Post, like this admission of error?

Quote:

Fair enough, Mark. I stand corrected [that I twisted Dan's words].

Or this, where I reiterated the point of the thread?

Quote:

I want to make it clear here to anyone willing to listen that I am not baiting, nor complaining, nor trying to do anything at all other than resurrect my hope for some communication with Firaxis.

Could it be this repentance for my behavior?

Quote:

I believe that the points made about my abrasiveness with respect to Firaxis are correct.

Or this, where I offered to mitigate any inconvenience Dan might encounter in searching out the open questions and concerns?

Quote:

Instead, I will offer to compile the compendium that I mentioned earlier if I can be assured that the effort won't be wasted.

Or this, where I once again stated my intention?

Quote:

My hope was that this thread would be a peace offering to Firaxis, a hatchet burying experience where those of us who have complained (and we are NOT a few; we are legion) can open our minds and allow Firaxis to answer the unanswered questions and shine some light on our rampant ignorance and speculation about what they might or might not be considering for a patch.

All in all, Shaggy, I fail see how you infered that I had ripped Dan a new one. Speaking of minds already made up...

Grumbold · January 8, 2002, 11:21

Pulling a paragraph apart and putting your own interpretation on to each sentence comes across as nasty, Lib, even if you believe you are doing it for the best of intentions. This isn't an English Literature class where you are examining a Shakespeare play.

It doesn't come across as a sincere apology from you, just another attempt to bully more news out of Dan or any other Firaxian than they are apparently prepared to provide. Especially where you begin drafting what you want to hear back from him.

Libertarian · January 8, 2002, 11:56

You're entitled to your opinion, but I never mentioned any apology.

When a man stands accused of ulterior intentions by nothing more than a random assertion, there ought to be far fewer counterexamples than these. I stand by my post. I felt it was necessary to prove the accusation false.

Once again, we tend to see whatever it is that we're looking for.

Kautilya · January 8, 2002, 11:58

Um Libertarian,
Let's see. You trash Firaxis and Civ3 week after week. Then you turn around and try to build a relationship. Sorry but the real world doesn't work that way. Most likely Firaxis has put you on the ignore list. There are plenty of intelligent fans who are willing to discuss the game rationally without abusing the developers and the game; Firaxis just doesn't have any incentive to put up with your behaviour, or Yin's or Venger's.

Libertarian · January 8, 2002, 12:20

With all due respect, I believe that it is a decision for Dan and others at Firaxis to make: ought they to put forth the small effort to find out why their biggest fan turned against them or no? An acute business professional would sense a great opportunity.

We'll see.

ACooper · January 8, 2002, 12:30

Lib,

You took a response to a thread on another board and pasted it here. Then you dissected it sentence by sentence. Twisting and turning everything around so as it loses meaning as a whole. (And I might add you still found a way to whine about them not answering you. Which they have already done.)

If anyone from Firaxis would even bother to read your thread (which I doubt based on the title) they would have found the first post in the thread to be so inflammatory as to not to bother reading the rest or any of the other posts.

Make your "compendium" with out snide, rude, self serving comments and they may still listen to you. I would back a good list (w/o the above mentioned comments) and maybe it could be turned into a "petition of sorts". (NO MANIFESTOS!)

ACooper · January 8, 2002, 12:32

Quote:

Originally posted by Libertarian
With all due respect, I believe that it is a decision for Dan and others at Firaxis to make: ought they to put forth the small effort to find out why their biggest fan turned against them or no? An acute business professional would sense a great opportunity.

We'll see.

Are you four years old!

Libertarian · January 8, 2002, 12:33

No, I am not.

Does anyone have Dan's e-mail address?

ACooper · January 8, 2002, 12:40

Lib,

Do you realize you average just under 10 posts a day? Most on the same dead horse subject.

THIS IS WORSE THAN END GAME TEDIUM!!!!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

ACooper · January 8, 2002, 12:42

Sorry, Back to normal now.

Lib, I apologize

Kautilya · January 8, 2002, 13:01

Libertarian,
Like I suspected you seem to have an exaggerated opinion of your importance.

The fact is that you don't have any profound insights that Firaxis can't live without; your complaints have been voiced often by more reasonable people. Firaxis has no reason to put up with your rudeness. Face up to this and move on.

Perhaps you will have learnt a lesson and you will be more polite the next time you are in a similar situation with some other game.