How to wage war in democracy?

Marquis de Sodaq · January 8, 2002, 11:07

I am about 5 turns from democracy, and have recently trained a rash of veteran knights. They are bored and want to crush some neighbors.

The scenario:
On a real world map, Azteca includes where the US is, and all points south. South America is still thinly settled, but my settlers are walking and sailing there in a steady stream. (The rest of the planet is smothered with AI cities - even Greenland has little room left.) I had built my Forbidden Palace in real-life Michigan, across the lake from the Iroquois capitol. My new cities in S.America have obscene corruption levels, so democracy seems like the best option.

My questions to those of you with war experience:
1) Does having troops in neutral territory cause war weariness? That is, I could sail a horde of knights to a desirable place, disembark, then disembowel some poor defenders. Once a city is conquered, these units count as being in friendly territory, n'est-ce pas?

2) I could probably crush the Iroquois, but it would take a while. (The Americans are already wimpering vassals huddled in the arctic.) Is it worth starting a war when this close to democracy?

Arrian · January 8, 2002, 11:33

If you're gonna pick a fight, I strongly suggest (given the situation you outlined) that you stick with Republic for a bit. War weariness won't hurt nearly as much. As for troops in neutral territory and such... I'm not entirely sure, but my people seem to know when I'm on the offensive. Also beware the war weariness penalty for being the aggressor. It's much better to be attacked, though that is often difficult to engineer.

My second suggestion would be to pick your opponent based upon luxuries. Who has India/S.E. Asia? There is a LOT of nice stuff over there (gems, ivory, silks)... or are you playing a World Map someone else made? I'm only familiar with the standard one that comes with the game. Either way, hit Ctrl+Shift+M and take note of where the luxuries are... and then go get 'em.

You S. American cities will probably always have obscene corruption, given where your forbidden palace is (where is your palace?).

-Arrian

Rakso · January 8, 2002, 13:00

I think you can last a long time if you have the luxuries, and yes, I think it's a good idea to target more.

Marketplaces and then entertainers can keep the war going, then you can sue for a quick peace and get a few more cities out of the deal. (Just beware reconversion.)

One thing, though... War weariness is still there even during peace, right? It doesn't disappear because you can't just sue for peace then declare war and start from a zero weariness? (Well it didn't for me!)

Arrian · January 8, 2002, 13:11

Rasko,

War weariness definitely lingers. 1 turn of peace will not reset it. I don't know exactly how it works, but I would guess that 20 turns would reset it. 20 turns seems to be the standard # for things to happen in Civ III (trade deals, unhappiness caused by "oppression" or drafting).

-Arrian

Rakso · January 8, 2002, 21:09

What feels like cheating is that, yes, draft unhappiness lingers...

...EVEN IN CITIES THAT DRAFTED 2 INFANTRY RIGHT BEFORE I CONQUERED!

David Weldon · January 8, 2002, 23:41

To answer your specific questions:

1) Yes, conquered cities (and the area around them) are immediately considered "friendly" territory.

2) I'm not sure about units in neutral territory _during_ a war, but no units in any territory (even enemy territory) cause war weariness _before_ the war.

Given these two points, and the fact that it can be difficult to force the AI to accept peace post-patch, the strategy should be pretty clear:

-Amass a huge army all across the borders of your target civ, including a horde sitting in transports just off of all coastal cities.

-Declare war and devastate his empire in 2 or three turns at most. If you capture or raze enough cities, he'll be willing to pay for peace immediately.

-Use the 20 turns of peace to use the same tactic on another neighbor (this ping-pong war strategy has been named by others, but I forget their name for it), then come back to this one when it's "ok" to declare war again.

N.B. If you can sack his capital with a spur of your army that bypasses other targets, you can remove a huge culture producer for him and also cause his low-corruption production center to shift to an undeveloped region (normally). This one act will remove that civ as an effective opponent for the rest of the game. It also seems to make him more willing to listen to peace proposals.

For the record I find that the lower war-weariness of Republic can be much more valuable than the tiny corruption reduction from Democracy. The worker bonus may or may not help depending on how many captured workers you have and if you're industrious or not. Still, I go straight to Democracy and have had no problems with war-weariness as long as I take care to not involve an MPP civ from another continent or something like that.

Hurry · January 9, 2002, 03:17

Republic is definitely much better than Democracy if you plan to stay at war for more than a few rounds. War weariness is lower, and your kingdom won´t go into anarchy after a few rounds like it will if you stick with Democracy.

Marquis de Sodaq · January 9, 2002, 12:50

Indonesia may be a good target, as the cities there are all relatively small. Most are Indian, but the Babylonians, Japanese, and Persians each have a city. One of my ships will be there in about 5 turns, so I can easily scout around. However, with caravels, an invasion may take too long! It may be worth a try for no other reason than to try to pull it off.

For that matter, west africa (iron, ivory, etc) may be good. The cities are a hodgepodge of nationalities and small. There is even neutral territory between city radii...

Maybe using republic is the way to go. My palace is in Mexico, I'm playing as the Aztecs on Marla's world map.

Thanks for the tips!

Arrian · January 9, 2002, 17:01

Ah, ok, I'm not familiar with that map, but the basic advice remains the same: luxuries are really the key.

If you're gonna beat up on someone, pick someone that has luxury items you don't have. Your problem is geographical. Any war you fight for luxuries at this stage will be intercontinental, and that's tough with caravels. How many lux. items do you have now? Do you need to fight?

Come to think of it, you actually may want to take down the Iroquois - you said they are near your Forbidden palace, right? That means the conquered cities will be productive.

-Arrian

CMartin · January 9, 2002, 17:36

Democracy is good, but I agree with HURRY.
You should stick with Republic for now.

Marquis de Sodaq · January 10, 2002, 11:47

I have dyes and gems (plus 4 of each to trade), and trade for incense and ivory. Indonesia has a silk and numerous spice. My ship arrived last night - there are two more cities, but none of the 9 or so in the archipelago are larger than size 3. There's even a conventient iron left unclaimed...

The Iroquois capitol is only 6 tiles from my forbidden palace. Two cities are within about 12 tiles. Also, two towns are close to being absorbed by another of my cities that has 2 wonders. I have a military edge, Iroquois mounted warriors and pikemen are the best units they have. I have knights, musketmen, and SunTzu's. I could easily take them out, but have nothing to gain except territory and any future strategic resources.

How can I incite them to declare war on me besides demanding tribute? Will poking around their territory be enough?

vmxa1 · January 10, 2002, 13:33

Hpw about putting a spy in and getting caught inserting it or using it. Not sure if an embargo counts against you. Park troops in their area as well.

Marquis de Sodaq · January 10, 2002, 14:37

Ah, yes, spies. I'd forgotten about the underhanded stuff. Another reason to miss the spy unit from CivII! I'll hafta remember that...