Special Geographical Bonuses

Yxklyx · January 8, 2002, 16:24

Do the special bonuses apply when the land or sea squares are lowered or raised? For instance, there's that new SMAX water location which is in the middle of the ocean and kind of useless for anyone other than the Pirates. Can it be raised and used?

Clear Skies · January 8, 2002, 16:43

I know for a fact that the Fossil Field Ridge doesn't keep its special bonus when raised, and the Great Dunes DO

I'm not sure about the others...

Kassiopeia · January 8, 2002, 16:55

Quote:

Originally posted by SMAC Fanatic
I know for a fact that the Fossil Field Ridge doesn't keep its special bonus when raised, and the Great Dunes DO

To my recollect, at least the Pholus Ridge retains the bonus even if tinkered with. Haven't actually ever tried with, say, the Geothermal Shallows.

By the way, good addition to your earlier signature, SMAC Fanatic!

RedFred · January 8, 2002, 17:14

Jungle - No, Uraniam Flats - No.

Clear Skies · January 8, 2002, 17:29

Oh yeah, I remember trying to raise the Jungle once to save it from global warming (the Angels, not me!) and it didn't work.

The Ruins does, I believe. Other than that, I can't remember right now.

Oh and kass, thanks

moi · January 8, 2002, 19:03

if you nuke a monolith into the ocean (not sure if it works with normal lower with sea formers), then your sea units can use it

Yxklyx · January 8, 2002, 23:09

can't you just lower the terrain instead?

Lefty Scaevola · January 9, 2002, 01:01

The ruins are just a colection of monoliths which are unafected by elevations changes. Like wise the borehole cluster does not disappear when raised, but you will notice the the intial slightly different appearance of the cluster boreholes change to regular borehole graphics when raised in elevation. The sunny mesa is just high land with no special bonus, and the dunes (with no special bonus) does not change either. The freshwater sea sea become land if you raise it one bracket, and it loes its bonus, The Jungle, Pholus Ridge, Fossil Ridge, Uranium Flats, and manifold nexus (the central square), lose their bonus if raies (but if you have solar collector on the pholus ridge it net with the elevation bonus increase).l

johndmuller · January 9, 2002, 15:26

I read in some other thread that one could expand the inland sea by dredging around the shore (thus lowering adjacent previously dry land) as long as you didn't break through into the ocean. IIRC, it went on to describe how you could even expand into what had originally been the ocean if you first built up the ocean coastline to push it back and then submerged the land from the inland sea side (still maintaining a dry land separation between them). I don't know that this works, although I've been thiniking about trying it in a current game.

Regarding saving the jungle (or other stuff for that matter) from the floods, I've wondered whether raising the land all around the threatened territory would work. In other words, you would erect a ridge of 1000-1999m high tiles surrounding the endangered area. Assuming you raised a 0-999m tile adjacent to the special area tile (also in the 0-999m range) it would not cause the special area tile to be raised and so should not cause it to lose its special properties. First, while it wouldn't necessarily raise the special area tile above 1000, it might cause it to change somewhat, as there appears to be a bit of a rearrangement of heights whenever you change a neighboring tile. This might happen to save a tile from a small flood by moving it up slightly, but the real question is whether this **** would protect the low lying land behind it or would the flood ignore it and just create an atoll/doughnut formation?

Regarding the monoliths, I can say for sure that monoliths submerged by either global warming or nukes are still usable (and quite nice) as sea monoliths. As for doing it yourself with a sea former, I am pretty sure that works, but I can't remember for sure whether or not I ever actually did it.

Yxklyx · January 9, 2002, 16:26

I believe the flooding algorithm only looks at the elevation of the square so building walls of higher terrain wouldn't stop low elevation terrain from flooding. The water just seeps up through the sandstone-like ground.

Flubber · January 10, 2002, 14:37

I don't think the adjacent ridge idea will save the jungle. In an earlier thread I learned of a concept called "washing" which if i understand correctly works like this. There is an sealevel rise which would submerge your low elevation jungle squares but the game will not permit the square to REMAIN below sealevel since there are adjacent 1000m+ squares. So on the fateful year the square drops below sealevel for a moment and loses all jungle attributes, terraforming and units before the tectonic forces realign and the square has a positive elevation once more. You never see the square below sealevel but there is almost a flash flood effect

I had this happen to me once over multiple squares. I opened a turn to find that not only had the jungle disappeared but so had all my terraforming and formers over a 4 or 5 square area.

The moral for me is that if the searises are serious, there may be no way to save the jungle bonus but by pulling at the highest points on your land mass, you can keep the elevations high enough that none of your improved land will be even temporarily submerged and lost.

Yxklyx · February 1, 2002, 12:04

On random maps I play, the Freshwater Sea usually ends up being covered by land (bug?). If I sink the land would I get the benefit?

spartak · February 5, 2002, 19:18

Have you tried it to see?

RedFred · February 5, 2002, 22:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Yxklyx
On random maps I play, the Freshwater Sea usually ends up being covered by land (bug?). If I sink the land would I get the benefit?

This is confusing for me.

Apparently different rigs have different bugs, but I have never before heard of this one. Can anybody else verify that it happens? If it happened 'occasionally' I would suspect a AI pod pop leading to a ground raising earthquake. But that wouldn't cover 'usually'.

Anytime I have tried to lower ground below sea level I have always gotten the message that the former could lower no more, use a sea former instead. Enlarging existing seas or oceans is easy, but is there a special trick for creating a new sea I don't know about?

Yxklyx · February 5, 2002, 22:48

This is with the latest version of SMAX. I loaded up a whole bunch of games and I can't find the Freshwater Sea (under land or not) in any of them. Here are some examples of when it's under land. The last one is a brand new game on a huge planet (went to scenario mode):

http://home.uchicago.edu/~rullfig/images/fws1.gif
http://home.uchicago.edu/~rullfig/images/fws2.gif
http://home.uchicago.edu/~rullfig/images/fws3.gif

I've been playing with Pods off lately too so it can't be earthquakes. It's been so long I don't even remember what it looks like.

When you lower the land you don't get the nutrient bonus.

Mongoose · February 5, 2002, 22:58

Re: The Fossil Field Ridge

This is a good landmark for the Pirates. Since they can terraform ocean/trench squares without raising them to shelf (after discovering Adv. Ecol. Eng.) a Farm/Mine constructed here yields 3 Nuts/4 mins with Aquafarm/Trunkline. Do the whole ridge like this and the base set there gets to be quite productive.

moi · February 5, 2002, 23:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Mongoose
Re: The Fossil Field Ridge

This is a good landmark for the Pirates. Since they can terraform ocean/trench squares without raising them to shelf (after discovering Adv. Ecol. Eng.) a Farm/Mine constructed here yields 3 Nuts/4 mins with Aquafarm/Trunkline. Do the whole ridge like this and the base set there gets to be quite productive.

nope, it aint worth ****. why? beacause pirates get +1mineral on all shelf squares. so you leave it how it is? its the same as a shelf square. you raise it? it loses its special and becomes the same as a shelf square.

RedFred · February 6, 2002, 00:21

Ykxlyx - On the problem with your freshwater 'sea' I can only say that I never have this problem. I notice that the landmark name in your screenshots appears on the edge of sea and land. I am assuming that the nearest body of water has been tested by you for the extra nut per tile and it is not there.

Is there any chance that one of the files involved in map generation has become corrupted or altered in some way?

Yxklyx · February 6, 2002, 11:22

Well, now you've got me worred. Can anyone else verify that the Freshwater Sea no longer appears on randomly generated maps? I even started a game using SMAC Classic with an Ocean world and there was no Freshwater Sea. It appears that if there is lots of water it doesn't appear and if there's lots of land it appears but underneath a continent and so is useless. How do you tell the version of the game you're running?

Yxklyx · February 6, 2002, 11:27

Quote:

nope, it aint worth ****. why? beacause pirates get +1mineral on all shelf squares. so you leave it how it is? its the same as a shelf square. you raise it? it loses its special and becomes the same as a shelf square.

Very good observation. The only way I think it would be useful is if it starts next to a shelf - build as many bases as you can on it. The bases will get +1 mineral for the base square and can use the nearby shelf squares for development. I actually did this in one game in which I was hemmed in and my alternatives were few.

On a side note, can't find a good use for those Ocean squares? Drop a fungal payload on them - the fungus will net you better resources.

johndmuller · February 6, 2002, 13:50

Well if you want a NON statistically accurate sample, I just looked at a recent random map and there did NOT seem to be a Freshwater Sea on the map. (I looked pretty closely, but there was a lot of clutter and I might have missed it.) Although I am pretty sure I didn't vary sea/land ratio from normal, this one seemed to have smaller landmasses than usual, so there wouldn't be much room for an inland sea. (This would be with SMAX v2 from the planetary pack.) In fact, I only recall seeing a 1 tile landlocked "sea". Perhaps it needs to have a big enough landlocked body of water to generate the landmark name?

Re the fossil ridge, has anyone seen what happens to it if the sea level drops, say from the solar shade, thus in effect raising it to shelf level?

RedFred · February 6, 2002, 14:07

Random maps only have some of the landmarks, not all. Particularly for a waterworld, I would not give a high probability of an inland sea.

If my games are any indication, the freshwater sea is one of the less common landmarks. So its absence is not as disconcerting as the name for it being there but no corresponding sea.

Fitz · February 6, 2002, 19:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Mongoose
Re: The Fossil Field Ridge

This is a good landmark for the Pirates. Since they can terraform ocean/trench squares without raising them to shelf (after discovering Adv. Ecol. Eng.) a Farm/Mine constructed here yields 3 Nuts/4 mins with Aquafarm/Trunkline. Do the whole ridge like this and the base set there gets to be quite productive.

Nice idea, but the Fossil Field Ridge disappears in a specific square if you terraform it. In other words, it helps non-pirates get their base started faster, but is useless once you've added a few improvements (ie Aqua/trunk) in any nearby coastal squares. At that point, it's time to destory the Feild for it's coastal squares underneath.

Mongoose · February 6, 2002, 20:17

No, Fitz. That's exactly the point. For the Pirates (only, on account of their innate special faction ability) the FFR (or any other deep water) square can be terraformed without raising it to shelf. In this case, the FFR square DOES NOT lose its +1 Min bonus.

Johndmuller - right in fact, wrong in conclusion.

Yes, in the circumstances I have described, the ridge squares become functional shelf equivalents. Wrong in concluding that it is... worthless.

Usually, if not always, the ridge is located in a deep water part of the map. It can be valuable indeed to be able to place a productive base in such a place. Alternatively, sometimes there are no remaining good shelf sites. (Defensibility and/or proximity to the empire core are reasons that come to mind.) Finally, there is some benefit in having a base that won't be nearly as productive for any would be conquereor.

One final note. A base sited on a ridge square will provide the Pirates with 3 Mins in the base square. That's pretty sweet in a the early game when minerals are a bit hard to come by.

fluffy · February 7, 2002, 07:55

Quote:

Originally posted by RedFred
I notice that the landmark name in your screenshots appears on the edge of sea and land. I am assuming that the nearest body of water has been tested by you for the extra nut per tile and it is not there.

If you try playing around with the scenario tool and create a new Freshwater Sea, you will notice the landmark name itself is always placed on land tiles immediately below the actual fresh water. This means the fresh water is always above the name (not sure what happens if you make a sea containing the bottom row...).

gwillybj · February 10, 2002, 20:29

I have used the map editor to make new maps at least a couple of dozen times. I let the generator create a map, then I edit it (as little as possible). Very frequently Freshwater Sea ends up in a completely useless place, often only one or two spaces of water. Indeed, sometimes it is nowhere at all. The program creates the landmasses and then sprinkles the landmarks randomly over the map. It does not appear to test the location first to determine if it is logical. This can lead to having 2, 3!, 4!! landmarks on a single landmass. New Sargasso and Geothermal Shallows are always in water, but not always entirely in water. Sometimes you get only half the spaces.

The odd thing about it is every landmark, except Freshwater Sea and Monsoon Jungle, alters the underlying terrain when placed so its base elevation is <1000m above (or below) sea level.

If you create or edit a map and place the landmarks yourself, you will see these results.

Place any land-based feature on top of any terrain >1000m and you will see all the landmark spaces dropped <1000m. It is especially noticeable if you put them on a highland plateau >3000m. The landmark will be in a bowl. If it is Garland Crater, Mount Planet, Sunny Mesa, or Pholus Ridge, it will stick up from the bowl, and the highest point of the landmark will be <2000m (the center of Mount Planet will be 3500m).

If you place New Sargasso or Geothermal Shallows in the middle of a trench or deep-sea plain, the depth will be raised to <1000m.

But, wherever you place Monsoon Jungle, it just adds the feature. The elevation does not change. You can have the entire feature >3000m if you want to.

Nessus Canyon is a strange and beautiful thing. If placed on a highland plain, the result looks like the Grand Canyon. If placed on a lowland, it looks like a fault that was raised and split open.

Placement of Freshwater Sea can be tricky if there is a lot of water and no very large landmasses. You might have to create a landlocked lake yourself if you definitely want to include it.

Yxklyx · February 15, 2002, 01:24

gwillybj: O.K. I see what you mean. It wasn't obvious before. The Freshwater Sea MUST be surrounded by land. The text always appears over the land just to the south of it. Interesting to note that every single square in that body of water gets the bonus nutrient.

wheathin · February 15, 2002, 12:18

The Freshwater Sea applies to all the contiguous water squares, and I beleive you can change their elevation and they will remain fresh (i.e. change ocean to shelf). This, like the jungle, can be any size. Also, I beleive you can have multiple Seas if you use the map editor, just like you can have multiple Jungles, Flats, and Shallows.

If you wanted a more food-rich waterworld, you can make the entire ocean Fresh. And since the Fresh attribute persists even if a land-locked lake is opened to the ocean, you can create Fresh bays or channels that are part of the general ocean.

Chowlett · February 16, 2002, 19:25

Quote:

Originally posted by gwillybj
Nessus Canyon is a strange and beautiful thing. If placed on a highland plain, the result looks like the Grand Canyon. If placed on a lowland, it looks like a fault that was raised and split open.

Y'know, since I always play random maps, I don't believe I've ever seen the Nessus Canyon. I must fire a game up and do some map editing.

Man, I haven't played SMAC/X in ages, hmm, I feel an urge...

MariOne · February 17, 2002, 13:36

nice observations gwill.
I just kicked a couple of tests for the Freshwater with SMAX, (start a normal game, then Ctrl+K to test).
In one I customised a huge map, using low ocean coverage hoping for higher chances to get landlocked water bodies.
I got a few, but none was Freshwater
I then started a Standard random but no customised map, got rather compact continets with a couple ofm very small lakes, and there it was.
see attachment.
Most unusually, it was constitued of 2 close single-tile lakes!

I confirm what wheatin said.
With the exception that to my recollection (didn't test it again now) while in normal play if you connect the freswater to the ocean, all its tiles become salted and the landmark effect is lost.
While you *build* a new map with the scenario instead, if you *apply* the freshwater landmark in water that is not completely landlocked, the effect spreads to the whole ocean.
I am indeed playing a pbem where an unexperienced CMN built up the map with 2-nuts Fresh ocean squares... if it was his intention, he didn't declare it...