Zones of Control

Gord McLeod · July 18, 2000, 01:20

One nitpicky thing I just noticed in SMAC while playing through a game - foreign units' zones of contol affect your units even when you're within your own territory, and they are not. Specifically, I have a good position on an island, which I share with the Peacekeepers, and we've got a treaty between us. Given that we're friendly and are on our own respective sides of a mutual border, IMO the zone of control rule should not apply. Now if we had no relations or were in truce or vendetta conditions, ZOC would be appropriate, but not in treaty conditions I think.

Adm.Naismith · July 18, 2000, 16:47

Gord, I stopped few times ago to play SMAC, but if my memory works well enough, you must be a "pact brother" to avoid ZOC limits with another Civ units. A simple treaty doesn't work.

I suppose you are suggesting this as a point to take care of in Civ III .

IMHO, strong allegiance should let any player to avoid ZOC, where others kind of treaty must kept limits to units movement.

If a deep diplomatic model will be included, may be you can negotiate some "transit permission", e.g. to attack a far enemy.

USA doesn't ask too much before moving its troops/planes inside Italy, because we are "pact brothers" (well, it isn't that simple, but...).
They didn't the same in France, still they are not at war, AFAIK

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

Christantine The Great · July 19, 2000, 10:51

McLeod

I think I can give you a translation between Civ II and SMAC:

CivII SMAC

War Vendetta

Cease Fire Truce

?Treaty? Treaty

Allied Pact

Brother

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"Adorare Christantine!!!"
Republican Decree #1
[This message has been edited by Christantine The Great (edited July 19, 2000).]

Christantine The Great · July 19, 2000, 10:53

Sorry about that. Can't get them spaced.

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"Adorare Christantine!!!"
Republican Decree #1

phunny pharmer · July 19, 2000, 17:02

Good point, Gord McLeod. I had noticed this once. However, since helicopters are usually my first line of defense against intruders in SMAC, nothing usually gets close. However, my formers have had problems along close borders...

I guess you would know your own terrain, and could maneuver so that your flanks aren't quite as exposed to an enemy attack. This would give the defender more benefits on terrain, and make it harder to attack. If this is coupled with strategically placed fortresses/bases in Civ3, this could be a way of helping the defender.

However, if this implemented in civ3, defenders should only be able to move across the basic terrain, not along the roads. Armies would defend themselves from attacks along the roads.

UltraSonix · July 21, 2000, 23:33

I'm sorry for posting without reading the whole thread like I usually do, but I'm pressed for time and won't be back for a while

.

I thing that zones of control should only apply to the unit trying to move if it is outside its borders.
BUT, I think that not all MILITARY units should have zones of control. It should only apply to fast/powerful units that are capable of extering an influence on neighbouring squares. eg I don't think pikemen can really prevent a tank from moving if it wanted to... That said however, the majority of units should have zones of control.

BTW if you want to get some more info on diplomatic states, I've got some good ideas

in the Diplomacy thread.

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards...
[This message has been edited by UltraSonix (edited July 22, 2000).]

Gord McLeod · July 23, 2000, 11:11

quote:

Originally posted by Adm.Naismith on 07-18-2000 04:47 PM
Gord, I stopped few times ago to play SMAC, but if my memory works well enough, you must be a "pact brother" to avoid ZOC limits with another Civ units. A simple treaty doesn't work.

I suppose you are suggesting this as a point to take care of in Civ III .

The issue I have a problem with is the fact that the zones of control apply to you while you're within your own borders, ie. on your own soil, and while you're at peace, ie. they aren't the enemy. They may not be allies, but that shouldn't be a necessary condition while you're within your own borders and you're not at war with them.

Adm.Naismith · July 23, 2000, 19:39

Hmmm, maybe now I better understand you, Gord McLeod.

Of course Civ 2 and SMAC have some different rules about this situation, because of visible borders the latter add.

In SMAC terms, if you try to insert military units passing a Civ border, you are more or less try to check others Civ strenght. You will be contacted by diplomatic screen to receive an order to leave the country ASAP.

About your doubt, are you exerting some ZOC during peace time, out of your territory? With older units (e.g. archers or phalanx) this can be arguable or not (it depends of your tactical vs. strategical view of combat rules.

In modern peace time, main groups of army (i.e. any USA fleet, as any aircraft carrier with its escort) will order any Zombie unit (i.e. not friendly) to go away a few nautical miles from the group itself.

This "respect area" can be more or less extended according to diplomatic relations, that's part of the war game of "show the muscle" to anyone.

So, having ZOC inside your borders can become a CIV III diplomatic problem, as any other military menace (amassing troops at borders, develop nuclear/mass destruction weapons, make espionage during peace time).

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant
[This message has been edited by Adm.Naismith (edited July 23, 2000).]

UltraSonix · July 24, 2000, 01:27

quote:

So, having ZOC inside your borders can become a CIV III diplomatic problem,

How about in your diplomatic advisor/report screen, you can toggle default responces for the civs in the game. eg you can choose to exert ZOC where possible to the Chinese (and get them angry), but not to the Zulus. or alert you when a unit from a particular civ is spotted (because it's a close rival), but not a unit from another civ (because it's not worth noticing).

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards...

UltraSonix · September 19, 2000, 21:56

Old thread rises from the murky depths...

Summary of zone of control ideas:

[*new*] *zones of control should be exerted/felt only by units of the same era - how can a phalanx stop a tank from moving?

*the only units that can exert ZOC on your unit when you're inside your own borders are units of civs at war with you.

*Outside of your borders you'll feel all ZOC except from allies.

*Only miltary unit can exert ZOC - ie farmers and settlers can't

*Like I've said directly above:

quote:

How about in your diplomatic advisor/report screen, you can toggle default responces for the civs in the game. eg you can choose to exert ZOC where possible to the Chinese (and get them angry), but not to the Zulus.

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards...
[This message has been edited by UltraSonix (edited September 19, 2000).]

Urban Ranger · September 19, 2000, 22:53

quote:

Originally posted by Adm.Naismith on 07-23-2000 07:39 PM
In modern peace time, main groups of army (i.e. any USA fleet, as any aircraft carrier with its escort) will order any Zombie unit (i.e. not friendly) to go away a few nautical miles from the group itself.

Even if those units are in their own territorial waters? I doubt it.

Adm.Naismith · September 20, 2000, 11:30

Urban Ranger (about fleet exerting ZOC in real life)

quote:

Even if those units are in their own territorial waters? I doubt it.

Sure! How are territorial waters, when you are stronger than the adversary?

Just to mention some well know example, USA used (use?) to have military exercise at sea gulf that Libia declared "territorial water", and the result was a dogfight where two libian's MIGs went shooted down by USA F14 Tomcat.

Similar trouble arised with USSR, Cuba, China (on two ways: China exert military pressure on Taiwan), also with Italy (yes, we are ally, but they often acted without asking for permission, also causing an accident with a dozen of dead man on Cermis, and been main suspected for the shooting down of a civilian plane with resultin 84 dead man near Ustica).

That's not intended to flame US Navy (they will return a fire I can't cope with

), or any other army: simple to underline how politic reasons can stretch any international law, if necessary.

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

Urban Ranger · September 21, 2000, 04:14

Hm. A ZOC is mainly an abstract representation of a unit's ability to exert influence into adjacent areas. Now, units in territorial waters and space have a tendency to ignore this influence. Unless the exerting unit is willing to provoke a war, it will have to give up this influence.

P.S. I thought F-14's are land-based and F-15's are carrier based?

Adm.Naismith · September 21, 2000, 08:16

quote:

I thought F-14's are land-based and F-15's are carrier based?

A bit OT response: no, they are the other way: F14 Tomcat (well know for Top Gun movie appearance) are usually embarked on carriers, while F15 Eagle are USAF planes that can't take off from a ship.

About territorial space, please take a look at U2 spyplane (piloted by Gary Powell) incident over USSR, or Iranian civil plane shooted down by AEGIS cruiser in Gulf area, or Corean civilian plane shooted down by USSR in 1983 (or it was 1982?).

Oh well, I never intended to do some history lesson, but Civ is so good to start relevant (real life) topic, we can almost call it "edutainment software" (so killing every probability to sell it to anyone

).

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

Mo · September 21, 2000, 18:29

Since you are a peace with you neighbor you should be able to move anywhere within your borders no matter where friendly(non hostile) units are across your border. But if your neighbor decided to declare war on the next turn and surprise attack the unit you just moved into the zone of control of his unit he should get an attack bonus. This bonus should atleast counter act any bonus you get for it being your home turf, probably it should be more.