The Mod-With No Name (yet!) Discussion and Test Thread!

[Willem]

Originally posted by Velociryx

* New Lux Items (sugar, tobacco, rum)

You should try converting Horses to a luxury, visible immediately. After all they're just as good at pulling plows as they are chariots, and ancient people probably ate them before they rode them. Then set your goody hut's money resource to Horses. It works great! The goody huts still deposit then randomly so getting a herd isn/t a foregone conclusion. And it will leave you room for one more strategic resource. After awhile there'll be herds everywhere, so they won't have much of a trade value though.

Originally posted by Velociryx

* New Bonus Resources (Bananas, Salt Flats)

I'm up to 20 myself, the game does a nice job of spreading them around.

Originally posted by Velociryx

*Specialists - Taxmen and Scientists now provide 4 coins/beakers

-=Vel=-

Using 4 causes the graphics to run into each other, and so looks a bit sloppy. Three works great though.

Another idea:

Increase food requirement to 3 and increase the irrigation bonuses for Grassland, Plains, and Floodplains. Remove food from Hills, Tundra. This will prevent the AI from building in senseless locations and allows you to use the terrain more strategically. There's also a distinct reward for good land management, as opposed to just building anywhere, and also forces the AI to produce more workers, thus slowing down it's production of Settlers.

You'll have to make compensations in other areas though. I've increased the commerce bonus for my Grassland roads (they produce more food, why not more gold?) and increased my shields as such:

Forest- 3 shields
Hills- 1 shield>3 mining bonus
Mountains> 2 shield>3 mining bonus

You'll also have to remove the tile restriction in Despotism, so you can start irrigating right away. I've made a compensation between Despotism/Monarchy by adjusting the level of science investment allowed. Despotism will only allow 60% of your spending on science.

So far this is working great in my game. I'm able to keep up to the AI expansion without it being a mad dash for territory. And my overall development is about the same as it was before I made the changes.

A couple of useful flags:

Check out the "Must be near water." and "Must be near river." flags. These refer only to freshwater, not salt, and are currently used only for the Nuclear/Hydro plants. However, they can also be used for other improvements. The obvious one of course is Aqueduct, which will prevent your landlocked cities from turning into yet another super city. I've compensated by creating a Pipeline improvement in Industrialization, so they'll be able to grow then, but not until then.

I'm also using the flags to limit the ability of some cities to build certain improvements. e.g. Every city can build a Library, cities near water can build a University, cities near a river can build a Research Lab. These flags could add an interesting dynamic to empire building, making river cities your cultural/economic/educational powerhouses, with the landlocked cities a good place to set up a Barracks and draw new recruits from. Which kind of resembles history don't ya think?

[Willem]

Originally posted by Velociryx

Radio: required for the Pentagon, whose requirements decrease to 2 armies (that field is already in the editor); radio is required to coordinate large armies, after all. Airports moved here.

What about a Radio station? Reduces War Weariness, Resistance to Propoganda, Culture>1, can be built any where. Prerequisite for TV Station, Reduces War Weariness, increases tax by 50% (advertising), must be built near water, Culture>1. Prerequisite for Broadcast Studio, available with Computer, reduces War Weariness, must be built near river, Culture>1. Prerequisite (5 in total) for Mass Media small wonder, available Satellites, government>Democracy, reduces War weariness global effect, increases Treasury 5% (again advertising), Culture>2.

Yes it's a lot of reduces War Weariness, but since that aspect has a time factor, it just means that a Democracy/Republic can be at war longer without crumbling into total anarchy.

[Sevorak]

A bit of help required.

Dev Team etc. people, please check back at the Portal forum.

-Sev

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

Hi Again Guys,

Just a couple of things:

First of all Willem, I have actually recommended the improvement Media network for Radio tech (represents TV, Radio and telephone networks), if I recollect, it reduces corruption and war weariness. I also have the Small Wonder War Rallies, which requires 5 media networks to build and is supposed to reduce war weariness in ALL cities.

On another note, I hope soon to have Civ3 and to thus begin putting into practice the mod suggestions I have included here (mostly the buildings)!
Before I emabrk on this quest, however, I need to be aware of some of the capabilities/limitations of the editor. So I'd like to ask the following questions:

1) If a have a small or great wonder that gives a +X% bonus to production or research etc (or even a -X% penalty), can I use the editor to make this bonus apply to ALL CITIES?

2) If I have a wonder that has the ability to "Double the effect of all....", can I use the editor to give this doubling effect to a general CATEGORY of improvements (like production, research or religious), or must I apply it to a specific improvement?

3) If the latter is the case, can I use the editor to select MULTIPLE improvements to be doubled by the wonder?

4) Lastly, can I use the editor to create an improvement that grants a bonus trade arrow to a SINGLE square in the cities radius?

Anyway, any answers you can give me to these VERY important questions would be MOST appreciated.

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker

[korn469]

1) If a have a small or great wonder that gives a +X% bonus to production or research etc (or even a -X% penalty), can I use the editor to make this bonus apply to ALL CITIES?

there is only one research flag in the editor +50% to research, so you can assign a building, wonder, or small wonder to have this, however if you wanted this bonus to be in each one of your cities, you would need to create a wonder and you would need to create a building with this trait, make it only buildable if you have that wonder, then make the wonder put one of these buildings in every city

2) If I have a wonder that has the ability to "Double the effect of all....", can I use the editor to give this doubling effect to a general CATEGORY of improvements (like production, research or religious), or must I apply it to a specific improvement?

as far as i know it is doubles the happiness and not doubles the effect of, and it is only available to great wonders, and it only applies to one building per wonder

3) If the latter is the case, can I use the editor to select MULTIPLE improvements to be doubled by the wonder?

afaik no

4) Lastly, can I use the editor to create an improvement that grants a bonus trade arrow to a SINGLE square in the cities radius?

afaik no

[Qilue]

I'd just like to mention something with regard to reducing food in tundra and hills. This wont stop the AI putting cities there.

One game, there was this large mass of mountains and a single hills square in the middle. Yes, the AI did put a city on that square and although it's culture radius did reach 3, it stayed size 1 for the whole game. Another game, there was a 2 square island with both squares being tundra. Yes, that scored a city too.

I've even seen the AI trying to place cities and colonies in the middle of a battlefield with enemy troops everywhere.

This led me to realize the AI doesn't care about the terrain, how far from it's capital the city is or even the relative danger of that location, as long as it's the one with a city in that location.

[korn469]

Qilue

has anyone tried increasing food consumption to 3, leaving the base square at 2, and then seeing if a city would disappear from starvation without crashing the game?

EDIT: success! changing food values to 3 allows a city to starve to death without crashing the game

[Willem]

Originally posted by korn469
Qilue

has anyone tried increasing food consumption to 3, leaving the base square at 2, and then seeing if a city would disappear from starvation without crashing the game?

I've raised my food consumption to 3 and raised my irrigation bonuses, plus removed food from Hills and Tundra. The AI will still find some worthless scrap of land to settle on but they stay at size 1, and from what I can tell, it can't build on Deserts and Hills. And I haven't had the game crash on me either. I've noticed doing that slows down the expansion considerably. It's no longer a mad dash for territory at the first of the game, though I still have to work at it. At least I'm able to develop my cities a bit more than I could before, besides just building an endless stream of Settlers.

[Sevorak]

Willem,

It's a fair bet that it's not that the AI isn't building cities on Deserts and Hills, it's that the AI IS building cities that instantly starve to death.

-Sev

[korn469]

It's a fair bet that it's not that the AI isn't building cities on Deserts and Hills, it's that the AI IS building cities that instantly starve to death.

the thing is the base square will always give you 2 food in the early game (and possibly 3 when you discover railroads) so as long as their is one square that provides at least one food then the city won't starve to death, additionally it takes one turn for the city to starve to death and when it does starve it will leave a road on the square it was on, so if the AI cities had been starving look for the roads to see if they were there

[Kal-el]

one of the things I really miss about civ2 was the evolution of the worker. Now from what I understand it isn't possible to make them work any faster except through improvements, which isn't a bad thing, but what I really miss are my farms. Why can't we build those anymore? I think it made a lot of historical sense that at some point civilizations were able to get more out of the land.

I understand that this mod is attempting to show that by not allowing wheat and cattle to be seen until later in the game, but I also read, I think here, that even if you can't see the cattle, you still get the bonus from it. Don't know if that is true, but if it is it kinda defeats the purpose.

My suggestion (you knew this was coming) is to dissallow irrigation until the discovery of "Crop Rotation" (I was planning on calling it "Agricultural Revolution"). I know, I know, people knew how to irrigate very early on, but without the ability to make farms I think this simulates the change in food production technologies. I have seen somewhere on one of these threads, either here or at civfanatics, a graphic mod where the irrigation actually looks like farms.

What do you think?

[Kal-el]

I completely forgot. There should be at least two new worker units that appear at later stages in the game the first during the late middle ages, early industrial and the second during the modern era. The only difference would be their movement rate. This in conjunction with the increased number of techs/wonders that increase work rates should simulate the engineer unit of Civ2 and reduce the need for massive armies of stacked workers later in the game.

I really like Korn's distinvtion between the wheeled settler, therefore unable to cross mountains and the colonist, available during the middle ages. Great idea!

[Willem]

Originally posted by Sevorak
Willem,

It's a fair bet that it's not that the AI isn't building cities on Deserts and Hills, it's that the AI IS building cities that instantly starve to death.

-Sev

Yes well, it serves the same purpose in the long run. At least I can think about my terrain a little more strategically, instead of constantly being outflanked. If I have the sense not build a city in the middle of the desert, at least the AI should have to pay a price for doing so.

[Willem]

Originally posted by korn469


the thing is the base square will always give you 2 food in the early game (and possibly 3 when you discover railroads) so as long as their is one square that provides at least one food then the city won't starve to death, additionally it takes one turn for the city to starve to death and when it does starve it will leave a road on the square it was on, so if the AI cities had been starving look for the roads to see if they were there

Yes, as a matter of fact I have seen those roads. So I guess they are building cities but starving very quickly. I'm wondering if it will just keep trying to build there, or whether it will eventually get the idea. Probably not!

[Sevorak]

Originally posted by DJensen
I also read, I think here, that even if you can't see the cattle, you still get the bonus from it. Don't know if that is true, but if it is it kinda defeats the purpose.

Wherever you read that, it's wrong.

Otherwise, that would be the case for all strategic resources like Uranium, Iron, Coal etc. and that is not the case.

-Sev

[Sevorak]

Originally posted by Willem
If I have the sense not build a city in the middle of the desert, at least the AI should have to pay a price for doing so.

That's a pretty hefty price....

It won't stop trying to build cities there, you know. One of the AI's cities will be perpetually tasked to build settlers, send them there, and have them starve...on the exact same square.

In the later stages of the game, I'd expect that anywhere to a quarter to a third of the AI's cities will be tied up in this useless sending of colonists to their deaths. To say that gives you an advantage would be a great understatement.

-Sev

[Willem]

Originally posted by Sevorak


That's a pretty hefty price....

It won't stop trying to build cities there, you know. One of the AI's cities will be perpetually tasked to build settlers, send them there, and have them starve...on the exact same square.

In the later stages of the game, I'd expect that anywhere to a quarter to a third of the AI's cities will be tied up in this useless sending of colonists to their deaths. To say that gives you an advantage would be a great understatement.

-Sev

Well I've played until the Middle Ages this way, and it doesn't appear that the AI is suffering all that much. I still have to work at keeping up, playing Regent, though it's no longer a mad scramble for territory right off the bat. Nor am I consistently the smallest nation, though I still tend to be in the bottom half. And looking around at anothers civ's cities, I can see that it's still producing a fair number of units and improvements. Maybe this approach will turn out to be hugely detrimental to the AI once I reach the modern era, I don't know. So far though, I'm finding it to be a much more relaxed way of playing at the start. I'm also thinking about having a population cost of at least 1 for ALL units, with only a few exceptions, and even 2 for some. After all, creating a Spearman regiment is more than just providing a shield and a spear, as the game now stands. There has to be human beings holding them, and the way it is now, those seem to appear out of thin air. Which means I'll have start from the beginning once again to see how it plays out. _sigh_