obtaining tech from others

cpp · September 17, 2000, 06:25

The possibility to research Space Flight without physics somewhat confuses me.
To obtain (as in geting from somebody else/conquest of a city/espionage) a new technology you should have both prerequisites to that technology.

September 17, 2000, 09:55

well, I think there should really be thoughts made on this issue

Shadowstrike · September 17, 2000, 10:36

Hmm.. that reminds me of a game where I foolishly traded away Industrialization and watched the Spanish develop their almighty industrial production capacity without writing....

Seriously, this happened. This is a good point.

Dienstag · September 17, 2000, 22:55

Seems pretty obvious that you shouldn't be able to get a tech without the prerequisites. I hope Civ III doesn't allow this. Maybe you would get a message saying, "Your scientists recieve information about called 'Industrialization', but they can't figure out what it does. Maybe you should have them research 'Bronze Working'."

UltraSonix · September 18, 2000, 03:24

The difficulty of stealing a tech, instead of basing it on the spy's skill level, should be based on how far you are away from being able to get the tech. This kills the two birds with a single stone, so to speak, 'cause it'll make spies less appealing (don't want 'em, anyway), AND it'll kelp alleviate the industrialisation-before-physics problem.

Then this doesn't neccessarily have to be the case:

quote:

...you shouldn't be able to get a tech without the prerequisites.

But this would only help the getting-advanced-techs from conquests/stealing problem - I'm not sure how to solve the problem of having someone simply trading you the tech (maybe it doesn't need to be solved).

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards...

Deathwalker · September 18, 2000, 04:44

Though needed the prerep is important, a lot of civilizations have been able to get tech with out them. Also I think getting tech from conquest should depend on size and age of city and it be picked bvy the computer what you get. When WW2 ended we did not choose what technology to steal only to try and get as much as possable.

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I have walked since the dawn of time and were ever I walk, death is sure to follow

September 18, 2000, 05:19

If you really think about it, in real life, there are some societies that get the higher-level techs without ever getting the lower-level ones. They 'borrow' the expertise of other countries when they need something that requires the lower-level tech.

So if this is so in real life, why not in the game.

But I admit it is irritating, especially when I'm way ahead and then every other civ steals from me and starts building their own space-craft

cpp · September 18, 2000, 11:37

quote:

Originally posted by phoenixcager on 09-18-2000 05:19 AM
If you really think about it, in real life, there are some societies that get the higher-level techs without ever getting the lower-level ones. They 'borrow' the expertise of other countries when they need something that requires the lower-level tech.

But there are some low level techs who is too important to be borrowed (mathematics, writing, etc). I'd say you'd need those techs to get newer techs based on them

Dienstag · September 18, 2000, 13:26

Deathwalker's post made me think: "Maybe you shouldn't get techs at all from small cities." I mean, realistically, rolling into a small colonial city should not get you Nuclear Fission. Any city below, say, size 5 could be considered worthless for tech. Exception: any city improvements would make the associated tech available, and a city library would make all techs available regardless of city size. What do you think?

Shadowstrike · September 18, 2000, 17:12

Maybe if you have to have the prerequsite of the prerequsite of the target tech to get it ,it would be more appealing to use spies.

Either that, or you get the tech, but cannot use it for a random number of turns (higher for more advanced tech in comparision to your civ) or you gain the abilities one by one over a number of turns.

UltraSonix · September 18, 2000, 18:39

quote:

"Maybe you shouldn't get techs at all from small cities."

This is an excellent idea, but instead of basing it on the population of the city, look at how scientifically-advanced the city is in relation to the rest of the civ. So you won't be able to steal many techs from a city that only has 2 light-bulbs.

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards...

Mo · September 18, 2000, 18:42

For some techs ex( gunpoweder) you won't need all the prequisits to use it. If you trade for it your scientists might not learn why it works or variations, but rather we put this stuff together and it explodes. However if you wanted to continue that line of research you must either research it at a reduced cost again, or make a trade for it when you have the preq.

Dienstag · September 19, 2000, 00:30

Yes, definitely lightbulbs not city size. Great idea, UltraSonix.

Dare I mention it, but how does this topic relate to getting techs from goody-huts? Seems like finding "scrolls of ancient wisdom" could use some consideration.

Deathwalker · September 19, 2000, 05:22

That is a great idea for expanding my own. Use the level of the city not population. If you have SDI a conquorer could get the laser. This is more realistic as in the real world we get technology from capturing it, like when we got the V rocket factorys and bunkers in WW2. So this is better than population. But I stiill think it should be pot luck which one you get and only one. As some improvements would be destroyed in their taking and/or the people in side would destroy their records so you can not steal it. So some sought of random choice would be best, even a possability not to give you any tech.

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I have walked since the dawn of time and were ever I walk, death is sure to follow

Dauphin · September 19, 2000, 16:52

Rather than just outright stealing a tech it should really be something like "stealing plans" which would reduce the research cost for all pre-requisite technologies. The total value of the reduction would still equal about one technology but not give away advances that you are unable to research. The fewer pre-requisites you have the less the reduction, given that the bonus is spread over more techs. I hope this makes sense.

A similar model cold be used for sharing techs. A case of "We'll teach you the basics but then you're on your own!"

Nick-oh · September 23, 2000, 19:57

Good Idea Mo. For the vast majority of technology, it is not necessary for the end user to understand the theory behind a technology in order to use it. A rifleman doesn't need to understand his weapon: just how to load, point and shoot.

When a technology is stolen, the units and structures that tech allows, should be avialable. However, the further ahead the stolen tech is ahead of the theifs tech level, the more inferior the units/structures are. (i.e. if you steal labour union, your MI's have less hitpoints than those who discover LU on their own. More so if you're still in the bronze age).

In addition, Tech's with the stolen tech as a prereq, can't be researched until all the prereq's of the stolen tech are known. (I think that makes sense.

.)

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"Common sense is not so common" - Voltaire

UltraSonix · September 24, 2000, 03:08

quote:

In addition, Tech's with the stolen tech as a prereq, can't be researched until all the prereq's of the stolen tech are known. (I think that makes sense.

This is a very good idea.

But I think this would make the game too complex (it's realism vs playability again...):

quote:

When a technology is stolen, the units and structures that tech allows, should be avialable. However, the further ahead the stolen tech is ahead of the theifs tech level, the more inferior the units/structures are. (i.e. if you steal labour union, your MI's have less hitpoints than those who discover LU on their own. More so if you're still in the bronze age).

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards...