4th Apolyton Civ3 Tournament : 12-31/Jan/2002

[Raion]

I probably will not finish this game.
I have re-started it with the file, a few times already 3-4 times,
just not my level, I guess.
Can you start over from the beginning of the game?
Just in case I have more time in future type games.
This ones a booger!

[loki1000]

Okay, sounds like fun.

One question: how do you remove the goody huts? I can't find that option anywhere.

Thanks.

[Aeson]

Loki1000 -

If you are using Civ3 Copy Tool just select Integrated Civ3 Tools->Savegame Modifier from menu. That will open up a different window. Load a saved game, and then click on the Map tab. There is a button to remove huts, then save.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by loki1000
One question: how do you remove the goody huts? I can't find that option anywhere.

i'm opening "sea holes" in the ground

[White Elk]

Thanks again to MarkG for the Tournament

In past games I've restarted due to such dismall Starting Locations. It took this tournament for me to stick it out. As a result I am playing the most difficult , frustrating and therefore most enjoyable game yet.

Has anyone achieved a Golden Age?
Usually playing the Germans I go into a Golden Age after building Sun Tzu's Art of War. However this time I was beaten to the punch. I built Newton's University but that did not yeild a Golden Age as I'd expected. I guess I'll have to wait until a Panzer victory.

[loki1000]

Originally posted by Aeson
Loki1000 -

If you are using Civ3 Copy Tool just select Integrated Civ3 Tools->Savegame Modifier from menu. That will open up a different window. Load a saved game, and then click on the Map tab. There is a button to remove huts, then save.

What's the Civ3 Copy Tool, or more importantly, where can I get it?

Thanks, Aeson.

-Loki

[Conqueror]

Originally posted by White Elk

Has anyone achieved a Golden Age?
Usually playing the Germans I go into a Golden Age after building Sun Tzu's Art of War. However this time I was beaten to the punch. I built Newton's University but that did not yeild a Golden Age as I'd expected. I guess I'll have to wait until a Panzer victory.

I had to wait for panzer victory too.

[Flight]

just came to get the savegame as i feel ready to play a hard monarchy game and i find this discouraging thing
well, i thought it was worth a post...

[Aeson]

Originally posted by loki1000
What's the Civ3 Copy Tool, or more importantly, where can I get it?

The utility can be downloaded from here:

The Civ3 Copy Tool Thread

[kapapj]

A bloody game.

First it was diificult to find a good spot in the SE.
In the beginning good relations with the Russians but when they had iron and I not a campaign was released.

Afterwards I tried to have good relationship with everybody but the Persions stayed furious. Giving a city to the US gave me a gracious relationship.

So together with he UK and US navy a campaign against the Persians started. With some well placed stacks i managed they having no bonus-cities. But many losses against their immortals and cavalry. I still had a leader but not yet a goal for him

The US were far ahead with technology catching up was not possible. The war was over and the US tried to place a spy but failed. Next turn the declared war on me. lucklily my defencepact with the UK was still in place. I managed to sink their ships with armour.

Now it was racing for the UN-wonder, first to get in the new era and then to discover the science needed. While the US was already building this wonder. Selling and swapping tech's with my UK allies managed to get this wonder in time with my leader.

I expected to win at once becuase of gracous rellations with the Chines and the English but there were three parties to vote on: 50% was not enough.

The second vote without the English was won with 75%.

[kapapj]

A bloody game (2)

The result: 2016 pts in 1942.

[Eflin Soth]

This terrian is very difficult....

VERY VERY Good..... I Think that is very difficult make more than 2000 points.....

Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.

[Duncan Idaho]

Warning: major spoiler

Yay!

There were times in this game I thought I was a goner. Russians, Persians, Engish, Americans, all after my blood while I'm trying to catch up.

From the top:

With my starting settler, I gambled that moving east might yield better terrain. It didn't. That wasted 8 turns, moving to the west cost another few. After a millenium sojourn, the German people were ready to build a shack.

From there I expanded to a few fertile spots before my scouts found Moscow. The Russians were annoyed with me for some reason. I can't remember exactly what triggered the war, but we were fighting soon after first contact. Managed to destroy them fairly easily with archers+spearmen. They respawned, of all places, at my abandoned starting location.

Before I had a chance to secure the entire continent, the Persians showed up. They were 6 or 7 techs ahead of me, almost in medieval times. Persians dropped a settler in the jungles on my continent.

I tried to take the town, but I hadn't anticipated the galley with immortals in it. Attempt failed, Persians took one of my towns instead. Spent a dozen turns warding off galley drops. Tense times, every mobile defender chasing galleys around the coastline. Eventually, the Persian effort declined and I got the upper hand.

Halfway through these wars, I was lucky enough to spot the small continent/large island northwest of my territory. Early recon revealed very promising terrain. I stayed the war effort a few turns to ship 2 settlers over. Those towns spawned another two to culturally fill the island and went on to slowly grow. Brandenburg was destined to get the Forbidden Palace and turn the island into a literary stronghold.

Now, secure on my continent, small island and big island, I was finally able to switch to Democracy and start building things. By the end of medieval times I was tech leader in our corner of the world. No one had seen the American/English yet.

Railroads were, as usual, a big step. Electricity, also, was major. None of the islands had rivers. Irrigation raised the population by ~50% on average. Theory of Evolution was the first wonder I managed to build. It put me firmly in tech lead, 2/3 ahead of even the Americans. I sold all the techs I got to the AIs, provided they had something worthy to offer.

At this time, the Americans were huge, dozens of size 12 bases. The English were slightly behind them. The Persians and I were half of the Americans. The Romans and Russians were as good as dead. I was desperately trying to figure out if I could prevent the Americans from taking over either the Persians or the English.

I was a little skeptical when the Americans offered me a mpp/rop, but went for it anyway. Good thing, a decade later the Persians decided to rid the world of me. Spent some time fidgeting with boats and marines. That worked fine on the islands I grabbed from the Persians, but when I took one of their continental cities, my marines were greeted by a few dozen cavalry. O-kay, changed routine to include infantry and that was sufficient.

Then came the Panzers. Within a decade or two, the Persians were history. Dang, that is one powerful UU. It also got me the Golden Age. Only... pretty much the same time my civilization descended into anarchy. Doh! Eight long years of anarchy were enough to get the Persians to sign the treaty handing over all bases to me. Panzers took care of that.

With the Persians down, only England, America and I had a shot at victory. I controlled most of former Persia, but those were all corrupt towns beyond redemption. I moved my capital to Hannover, slightly more central on the main continent.

Early modern times were spent building up momentum for the space race, as well as building tactical nukes and shipping them off to the American coast, where they waited I tried with all my might to get the Americans to drop out of Democracy, but to no avail. I withheld all luxuries and techs from them. They felt no need to continue the mpp/rop deal.

However I tried, the Americans were beating me in tech and beating me in production. Something needed to be done, but I wasn't in a position to do it, yet. Starting a war would mean my research grinding to a halt and possibly dropping to anarchy again...

Then the English attacked Aargh! What's a man got to do to get some peace! Their attack consisted of 6 cavalry and a longbowman waltzing into Panzer-infested former Persia. Silly English. I eradicated them from the Persian continent. This gave me my third leader, Richtoffen, which I stored for future use.

And the English do something stupid. They drop a nuke on Moscow. Why, I don't know. The Americans responded promptly by declaring war on them and nuking the top 5 English cities. I signed a peace treaty and let them work it out.

As I researched Synth Fibers, I stopped to check the American progress and I noticed they had it already. Also, I'd been informed they were constructing the Party Lounge, so they already had all the techs to contruct the whole ship. Still, my spy showed they had 6 parts done and 3 in production. One part unaccounted for, that gives me a chance.

I sold every non-essential building and unit I had and switched every town's production to wealth, except for those building SS parts. That was enough to allow me to research Nuclear Power (and Laser) in 4 turns.

Remember those nukes I sent to America's coast? When I was sure I could finish the research and SS despite war, I dropped them on strategic points, namely aluminium, luxuries and uranium. The Americans were busy fighting the English anyway, and they only had one nuke left to retaliate.

The Party Lounge was hurried with the last leader, Richtoffen.

Phew.

I'm glad I survived it. Mark, whatever inspired you to pick this map, I suggest you stick with it. Challenge is fun, and this map was challenging.

NB. About the savegame: use Richtoffen to finish the Party Lounge in the city of your choice to finish the game (he's waiting in Hannover). Notice the abundance of pollution. Over 25 nukes were fired in the last dozen turns. If I hadn't disbanded my workers, they'd still be mopping up.

[gus_smedstad]

I played this one rather militarisitically, since the terrain was so poor I felt I couldn't just build my way to victory.

Unlike others here, I waited until I had run of of places to expand, and had horsemen, before I took on the Russians. They were fairly easy.

Near the end of that war, I contacted the Persians and the Romans. I traded techs with both, got their maps, and decided Rome was the easier target. I built a few galleys, arranged a Military Alliance with Persia, and attacked.

That went really badly. I just couldn't land enough horsemen at one time to deal with the Roman Legions, which are really pretty unpleasant. I did manage to mess up their iron supply, but really things didn't improve until I got Chivalry. Dumping 6-8 horsemen against the Legions was suicide; dumping 6-8 knights was easily enough to start rolling over the Roman cities.

After I conquered the Romans, I discovered that even though I had 4 luxuries, I couldn't ship them across the water! Each island only had 2. This is one of the few games where Astronomy was really meaningful. My situation improved greatly once I achieved Astronomy.

Eventually the English came calling, and from then on it was the typical Republican tech-brokering game. I did conquer the Persians once I got Panzers, mainly for the Golden Age, but I don't think that altered the course of the game much - except, of course, from the Persian point of view.

I notice that the starting positions for the Americans and English was much, much better than the German or Russian starting position. The Perisan and Roman starting positions weren't quite as good, but still much better than ours. In fact, the German starting position is easily the worst.

This is probably the most technologically backward game I've played, due of course to the terrain. I'm used to spaceship launches in the mid 18th century, not the mid 20th.

- Gus

[dmjohnson]

Space Race Victory (2047-- Just before the bell!) Score 1493. Tough damn game. Had to migrate south for a bit before starting. Archer wars with Russians for 5 millenia, bleh.

[Eflin Soth]

Military victory in 2048..... 2964 Points

See the game replay.... is very nice....the year 2047...

[Duncan Idaho]

When I watched your replay, just before I got the conquest victory msg, it said:

Someone has compiled a listing on the largest nations of the world:
1. Germans

Cute

[Sirian]

Hey Mark, I loved this scenerio. Different sort of challenges, quite interesting. Germans, though, with those panzers, well, I knew from the outset that I would roll to military supremacy, if victory of any sort was to be mine. Nothing, and I mean nothing, compares to panzers.

My stack of 2 elite archers, 2 veteran archers, vet warrior and vet spear managed to take Moscow in two turns... but only the spear was left, knocking off the last defender's final hit point, then I got two cities in the peace negotiation. If I had lost that fight, my game would have gone very differently. I had some bad luck, though, I thought. I had expected to win more easily. But then... that's why I try to bring decisive force to every battle, and tend to race ahead to steam power before I turn aggressive. It just doesn't pay as much to take a lot of chances where unnecessary.

I've read about the English dominating in other people's games. Not for me, it was America all the way, they got all the ancient wonders and had the tech lead for a long time, and were so strong I feared them getting a cultural victory or getting into high tech, so I went way out of my way to entangle them in wars with the others and beat them down first (landed 40 units at one time on the mountain north of Washington). I sacrificed quite a bit to snag SunTzu - first time I have ever built that one, last of the wonders for me to have finally built. (I'm big on barracks, you see, so I already have them by that time). It's not that that's the wonder I wanted, rather the only one I had any shot at all of getting, as it turned out, and after prebuilding Palace for simply millenia. Good grief. Then I got into the tech lead on vital tech as the Americans cleaned up all the optionals, Newton got me a golden age, with which I built my factories and researched 5 techs in 20 turns, and that was all she wrote.

When I razed London, halfway through the Final Campaign, my war weariness shot off the chart, so I voluntarily revolted and finished in Monarchy. (Communism blowz, I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole). Rushing to Computers and Miniaturization surely sped my final victory by a number of turns, as I could upgrade to and draft mech infantry, then increase panzer production rate in all those coastal-heavy cities . I used my spare leader, at the end, to rush the Manhatten Project. Who needs the UN when you're going to be the only nation left?

Conquest Victory in 1892, 2314 points. (I don't sit around clicking next turn ad nauseum to milk the score -- what's the point?)

Looking forward to the next game.


- Sirian

[Eflin Soth]

This scenario is very very difficult.....

The next scenario no one must win the game!

What do you think?

Level Emperor, map small, terrian 30%, isle....

[PFREMONT]

domination in 1850 AD – 3846pts
(just say yes to everything)

Here is a trick I figured out during this very interesting & challenging game.
As usual, I started building barracks and sending a couple of archers to annihilate the neighboring civ namely the Russians (2300 BC). They respawned north in the ice and we had a couple of fights but for some reason I decided to keep them. I thought they could always develop some techs, or I may sell communication to them whenever I would meet some other civ (BTW there might be some cheating there, because an AI civ always prices communication to another AI civ according to actual size and power, even though they ‘re supposed to know nothing about them...)
Or maybe I just kept the Russians for a company as I felt so “isolated”.
After many centuries of practicing the pleasures of manual jungle clearing in my homeland, which, under normal circumstances, I’m not eager to do, I finally managed to discover writing (800 BC) and map making (50 BC).
As I kept my first Great Leader at hand for that very purpose, I had the Great LightHouse on the following turn and started to explore the seven seas.
Conquering the Roman empire with a few swordsmen and horsemen was a piece of cake. It gave me one Great Leader and the opportunity to install Forbidden Palace in Rome (300 AD).
Now the real tough guys were the Persians. They had the Immortals, as expected plus a VERY STRONG cultural power they had the opportunity to build up while I was clearing the jungles. So during more than 300 years I tried to capture one of their big cities around the lake. I say I tried because the conquered city would flip back to “Persianism” no matter how many spearmen or pikemen I could station there or how many improvements I would rush in. The fightings gave a bunch of Great Leaders, though. And YES you may get 2 leaders in one single turn and even on the same assault in the same city.
But I was stuck with my Persian Wars pumping all my resources while on the other side of the Ocean, English and above all Americans were developing nicely.
Until I decided to offer one conquered city to the Russians. Then the magic Persian cultural power disappeared all of a sudden. That is when I conquered a Persian city the blue-green Persian cultural influence would still spread all around my little Prussian blue square. But once the city was offered to the Russians, the blue-green Persian influence would just stop where the brown Russian influence square started.
After I conquered and offered the 5 major Persian cities to the Russians, Persian empire declined.
After a few centuries I got chivalry and conquering back all those cities plus the remaining Persian empire by 1200 was a pure formality.
So whenever you’re fighting an enemy with a very strong culture better have a weak civ ready at the other end of the map and use it as a “cultural buffer”.

[PFREMONT]

domination in 1850 AD – 3846pts
(just say yes to everything)

plus the ZIP

[Platypus]

PFREMONT,

When you got multiple leaders in one turn, did you actually have two leaders at the same time? Or did you get one leader, use it to rush something or build an army and then get the second leader?

the curious Platypus

[La Fayette]

I decided to test my 'enlightened despot' strategy and therefore to stay in Despotism as long as possible.
The result is that I never switched to any other kind of government and won by domination (about 920 tiles, against 140 still owned by the Americans) in 1991.
I don't remember whether the despotism challenge was ever won in civ2. In civ3 (at least at Monarch level) it's done and I am proud of it because it was tough, especially thanks to the map provided by Mark (already described by other players).

This game has been almost allout war for me from the start: Russians first, almost as soon as I met them, then Persians (the longest war, from about 1200AD to 1700AD), then English (until about 1850). There remained the mighty American civ, with 17 cities average size 20 on their main island, plus 5 smaller cities on the 3 eastern islands.
I expected domination in the late 1800ies, after conquest of the eastern islands, but it took me one more century of bloody battles to conquer 10 of the giant cities on the main island, fighting most of the time with cavalry and ironclads against American tanks, bombers and battleships.

This is in fact the main problem with staying in despotism: money and research. I tried hard but never managed to be ahead in techs. In the end game I was in fact compelled to stop researching because corruption and maintenance cost more than my income. This was 2 techs away from the Panzer and the Golden Age: too bad!

Anyway, if I were to replay this (but I am NOT going to replay this), I would take even greater care of my science until I got Replaceable Parts, then stop research and fight like mad with artillery, instead of living with the faint hope of building panzers later on.

[La Fayette]

Sorry I forgot to mention my score (don't care much for score).
It was 2943 points IIRC.

[La Fayette]

PFremont
Very nice finding: 'cultural buffer'!
...and very nice result (I guess not many people will win this game long before 1850).

[Koro]

Hi, all!
It was long and hard war...

to PFremont:

my solution against hard alien ideology - quick whoul assault
of all alien cities in fiew turns.

[PFREMONT]

Originally posted by Platypus
PFREMONT,

When you got multiple leaders in one turn, did you actually have two leaders at the same time? Or did you get one leader, use it to rush something or build an army and then get the second leader?

the curious Platypus

Got them on the same turn.
I did not use any of them on the turn.
So I actually started the following turn with 2 GL.
First time ever, though

[Klem]

My game doesn’t qualify for the tournament because I misjudged the Persian immortals, did a reload and went back a few turns. After the reload, I ultimately got a diplomatic victory in 1902 with 2083 points. The zipped game from 1360 is what I should have done the first time and I thought it might be useful for some players to see a game midway. I’ll give a bit of history then describe the saved game.

We all know the starting position was awful (the polite term), and wasn’t worth founding a city. I assumed the ground would be better to the south and finally found a bonus area with luxuries and wheat. Everyone was way ahead and then I found mountains, jungles and Russians, a bad combination. To have a chance, the Russians had to go. Rather than build, my immediate objective was to clear out the Russians. A barracks and mostly archers took care of the Russians fairly quickly and I kept their cities if they weren’t destroyed by the battles. No settlers until I had a place to settle them.

With the Russians out of the way, I cleared land and built cities, to the extent the geography allowed. It was obvious I had to explore. Eventually, and after losing some galleys, I found Rome to the west. We Germans needed their land! Fortunately, there was a galley “alley” and moved troops over to take a few cities, then peace, then a few more, while the Persians nibbled on Rome from the other end. We had a foothold, including Rome and as a HUGE bonus, a Great Leader. The GL was saved for a while then used to build the Forbidden Palace in Rome. This was the first of four GLs, and most important because of the corruption reduction.

We built up the new land, and reached the point where the Persians were blocking our expansion. A large force of horse, swordsman and miscellaneous other units was built and we attacked Persian. We had underestimated the number, and the strength of the 4-2-1 immortals, which I had not run into before. The Persians repulsed our attack and went on the offense. I decided to reload and do what I should have done the first time. The best choice seemed to be Chivalry and the Knight with 4-3-2 and the wonderful ability to back off to recover to fight another day.

While researching, I built catapults and built two forts south of Rome in what looked to be a fairly good choke point for the coming battle. The location of the forts would allow me to cycle my units fort to fort, and into Rome for healing, if needed. The cycling worked well. Once I had what I considered to be a bare minimum offensive force, I started goading the Persians every time they were in my territory, typically with a galley. As usual, they promised to move out, but didn’t. After a few turns of this, they declared war on me (much better than the other way around for the German morale).

When the Persians declared war in 1360, I went for 4 cities, Cumae, Pisae, Gordium and Ergili and took them in one turn, at which point, I retreated most units to the forts. Sure enough the Persians went for my lightly defended cities, but had to pass by the forts. As they got in range, I took a shot with the catapults then hit them with the strongest units possible. By 1385, I had cleared all Persian units from my land and contacted the Persians for Peace. With none of their units on my land, they were willing to talk and I got Education and 7 gold per turn.

Should I have gone for more? Maybe, but I liked the defensive position and a protracted war was not to my advantage. I had more space, captured workers, and irrigation (no rivers in this game!) Also, I had significantly weakened the Persians. Plus, in 1385, I was able to contact an English galley just west of Berlin. Trade and peace looked more promising than a war with Persia, which was still strong, and better concentrated than my two islands. One other thought - - I always pillage forts after I’m done with them. I don’t want to waste units protecting them and if the enemy gets in, it’s really bad news.

If you load the save game, note the settlers in Rome and Veii. I’ll keep a captured city with a population of one, otherwise I raze because they revert too often. For a worthwhile Great Wonder, I might make an exception, but if I do, I stay at war and starve it down to one, or knock it down to one as it reverts and I retake it. In the latter condition, I’ll typically move my units out and let it revert just so I can retake it and reduce the population. As soon as peace was declared I built three new cities.

We took some more land from the Persians several centuries later, and then finished them off with panzers (a really great UU, but late in the game). The panzers started my golden age and made short work of the remaining Persians. Then I shipped some Panzers and cavalry off to the few remaining Greek cities, and took them out. At that point I built the United Nations with my fourth GL, made the Americans happy with an MP and ROP treaty. The next turn they voted with me, against the English, for a diplomatic victory.

Hopefully, this will help some of you who found the game even more challenging than I did. If anyone has additional thoughts or questions, write.

[baz_machine]

This is my Tournament Game. Space Race Victory in 2010 with 1999 points. Not too bad.

Baz Machine

[Kalani]

Not a victory, but what the hell. There's still a story, and I think survival on this map showed a fairly good game.... Actually, I'm surprised people pulled out victories.

All along I didn't think I had a chance of winning, just wanted to stick it out to see what would happen. Although, it might have been closer if I hadn't made a real novice mistake: the Americans built the Great Library about two or three turns ahead of me, because I completely forgot to mine all the grassland. Oops. Yes, I don't play every day.

This game actually looked like it might be entirely peaceful: I fought no wars until the last two hundred years. The Russians culturally assimilated two of my cities on the plain (was jungle) over the mountains near Moscow. The Chinese were screwed from the start, but lasted longer than the Romans, I think, who were eliminated by the Persians (Immortals 1, Legion 0). The Greeks were eventually taken out by America. England emerged #1, followed by America, then Persia, then Russia, with Germany plugging along in 5th. I was playing this game entirely peaceful, so I made no move to attack Russia...and I wasn't in a position to until cavalry came along. I paid off a few threats; they asked for less than 20 gold, so it seemed wise.

Eventually the English decided the Russians had to go. Then the Russians attacked me when I denied their demand for Saltpeter. Quickly retook the culturally assimilated cities, England beat me to the rest. I had settled the smallest continent, the northwestern island, and shortly thereafter the English decided small Germany ought to be puny. They mowed through the island in about three turns. I got a Panzer victory on our mainland, getting a golden age, then made peace and pumped out as many Panzers as I could with Persian rubber. When the English came for me again, I was ready. Made sure America was on my side to keep them largely occupied. (Oh–one of the wars started because we had mutual protection pacts with both America and England, and when they went to war I had to too.) With about 25 panzers we pushed the English off our home continent, and slowly captured the islands off Persia from them (these had been Russian cities).

Because Persia had built several spaceship components, I tried to plant a spy. After the second attempt, they declared war. So we shipped our Panzers over and razed about four of their cities, eventually. We'd built a couple of nuclear subs armed with warheads. A turn out from the end, we dropped one on Perseopolis, and one on now-English Bremen (they declared war on me when I nuked Persia). No reason, it was purely for the fireworks and for old scores. The next turn three English ICBMs hit Berlin, and two other cities. The autosave shows the resulting German Anarchy and massive polution.

(Side note: it would be nice for the nuclear animations if we got to see the missiles launching, not just incoming and detonating.)

So yeah, I went from pacificism to nuclear MAD. Such is Civ.

I think I netted about 1140 points for surviving. Very fun game.

By the way, not surprisingly, without much war, I had no great leaders the entire game. It seems that Civ rewards early conquest (duh). I guess I have to start thinking in terms of the times--I mean raiding and "tribal" wars would have been more the norm in pre-history and ancient times. Maybe China is an exception?