4th Apolyton Civ3 Tournament : 12-31/Jan/2002

[philler]

(somehow the same message got posted twice, see below)

[philler]

I hope I will have time to finish this one in time.

the year is 1804, I've just finished conquering the persians, the settlers are already in a boat to settle the southern part of the island where the persians and the romans started.

If I get there before then English and the Americans, I will totally control the two islands (the one where I started plus the one south of it).

I think I will then use my great leader to move my capital to a city in the center of the southern island.

I could probably take on the english and the american and achieve a conquest/domination victory, but this would take forever and I would never be able to finish in time.
So i'll probably go for space race victory, which will be rather hard as I've never had the tech lead.
forget about cultural victory, I'm badly behind in culture at that point.

my current score is 1200-ish I think, I don't know how much I'll be able to get at the end of the game, but probably not much.

at that point in the game I have crushed the russians, the romans and the persians. the english have taken care of the only chinese city, and the greeks were exterminated by both the americans and the english, so there are only 3 civs left in the game, who all have polite/gracious relationships with one another.

very interesting game, I hope I can still be in even if I submit a couple of days late (business trip and then out with the flu )

[Platypus]

I most say, playing this tournament game has been a ton of fun, and I have learned quite a bit, so I thought I'd pass on what I learned.

In the interest in full disclosure, I will tell you that I decided right off the bat that I would allow myself to do some experimentation via re-load. The main reasons were that I was a bit intimidated both by the Monarchy setting (I had played (and won) only one game on Regent, with a tiny map), and by the harshness of the starting position (I usually use old worlds - I don't like huge mountain chains). I loaded the game and explored a bit north and south of the starting position to see where a better founding location was, and then restarted the game with the knowledge that I would do well to send both my settler and my worker south-west before founding my capital.

My initial expansion went well, and I researched iron working to find out where the iron was located. When I discovered that the Russians had my continent's supply, I a German-Russian war high on my list of priorities. Previously, I have not done wars early in the ancient era, so I was delighted with how well my assault with about 7 archers and 2 or 3 horsemen work. Cathy had made only 2 or 3 swordsman by the time I attacked, so it was easy to take both of the cities with iron. I was hoping to turn Russia into a vassal (as discussed in the strategy forum), but Cathy kept refusing to see my envoy, so I kept capturing her cities. By the time she was willing to talk, she was down to 2 or 3 cities and willing to give one of them up to get peace. I suspected that Russia was now too weak to be a useful vassal, but decided to see if I can get any value from letting her live. Alas, her gold stayed at 0 and she had warriors wandering around my territory, so I eventually decided her cities will be more useful to m
e as German cities, despite the corruption, and took them. If I was doing it over, I'd just take them during the initial assault.

During the German-Russian war, I got a great leader, and had a huge internal debate about how best to use it: Forbidden Palace, Great Library, Great Lighthouse, or Army. I suspected that I would want the Forbidden Palace on another continent, and I was feeling really weak in tech (having met only the Russians), so I went for the Great Library. After meeting the Romans and Persians, I created one scientist in of my most corrupt cities and set science to 0 and taxes to 100%. This gave me discoveries in 40 turns, lots of cash, and I stayed close in technology via the Great Library. This worked pretty well over the game, but I'm not sure I'd do it again with a different game.

After getting the maps from the Persians and Romans (and not giving them mine), I decided that the Romans looked like the best next target for me, given the short transport distance and the strength of their empire. I figured that if I could assault and take their two iron cities quickly, they wouldn't be able to put up much of a fight. Besides the iron cities, I really wanted their silk-rich city on the coast. While gearing up for this fight, the Persians made an excessive demand, I refused and they declared war. Since I was close to going to war, I figured I would just change the target to Persia. I got Rome to join me an alliance, to give the Persians two fronts to deal with, and had my three galleys set sail with 4 horsemen and 2 swordsmen, with the intent of taking Persia's one iron city. I succeeded in taking the city, but could not hold it. I concluded that I really needed a larger assault force, deem this a learning experience, and reload to shortly before the Persians made demands. This time,
I gave the Persians what they want, and continue my military build up for a war on my schedule. Some time later, I was surprised to discover that Persia had gone to war with the Romans and taken both the silk city and the city of Rome. (Hey! You can't beat up on them; they're *my* target!) I sailed over 5 or 6 boatloads of troops with plenty of pikeman defenders, and take and hold the silk city. The Romans recapture Rome, the Persians immediately take it again, and I then I take and hold it. I proceed to take several more cities and easily hold them. Lesson learned: don't enter into an assaultive war until you have enough troops for certain victory.

The Persians gave me all their techs (3), and all their gold for peace. I used the lull to shuttle my horsemen back to my continent (where I had barracks), upgrade them to knights, and shuttle them back to German-Persian border. (I didn't have the money to upgrade them all immediately, so the delay of the shuttling operation was not a problem.) Once I was set for war, I steadily rolled over the Persians, and solved the "problem" of cultural reversion by wiping the Persians off the map.

After eliminating the Persians and researching gunpowder, I finally switched from Despotism to Republic. I think I may have waited a bit too long to switch. I was behind both the Americans and English in technology (although the Great Library gave me a good batch of technologies when I finally met the English). (The Chinese were eliminate very early, and the Greeks during medieval times.)

I decided to try to catch up in technology and eventually assault the Americans (the clear leader). With a generous science budget, and some judicious trading, I ate away at the Americans lead, and passed the English. With the Americans ahead in technology, I decided that value of cavalry was less than it usually is for me, and to build up for an eventual panzer assault instead. The Americans declared war on the English (glad I didn't sign that MPP they offered me a few turns earlier!), and eventually switched to Communism, which slowed their research down a notch. I was first to get the technology for Darwin's Theory of Evolution, and building that wonder put me into a three tech lead. (First tech lead in the game!)

Incidentally, I used one of my great leaders from the Persian war to build a Forbidden Palace in a city south east of Rome, which a great move. The former Roman-Persian lands have better production than the original German homelands. With factories, those cities are really powerful.

I still haven't finished the game. I'm two technologies away from Panzers, and I'm still upgrading all the defensive troops in my cities to infantry. The Americans have quite a few infantry, so I believe I need multiple transports of both Panzers and infantry. I plan to attack their most productive cities. The ones with wonders I want to keep, I plan to give to the Romans (who I pared down to only a few island cities) and later recapture and raze the rest. I'm not sure whether I'll try to get the American's all the way down to non-threat size, or just remove their best cities (and access to key resources) and then take the English down a notch. I suspect the latter may be the way to go. I'm looking forward to the golden age the Panzers will generate (I have not built many wonders, being behind in tech for so long), and I've never seen a golden age after medieval times. (Golden age with factories - should be very fun.)

I've really enjoyed reading about how other people have played the game from the same start. That's been a good education for me. My thanks to the people who set this up!

[Santa Cruz Tim]

Wow!
I have suffered a humiliating defeat!

All I can say is that I'm proud of the fact that I managed to resist the urge to reload... even thought I pretty much wasted the first 1000 years by founding my capital city at the starting location and then having to disband it and move south. Ugh!

I eventually conquered the Russians with Knights and from then on I never had a war again. The Persians, Americans, and English were polite or gracious to me for the entire game. There was no chance for a cultural victory, but I tried for the UN (English got it first) and then for the Space Race, but time ran out before anyone had reasearched the Laser.

Very tough game, especially for me since I normally play on huge maps at Regent level and always restart if I get a starting location even remotely as crappy as this one! I guess I'll just have to start taking whatever the computer generates from now on if I want to win one of these tournament games!

Still, it was fun and at least I survived (unlike the poor Chinese, Romans, and Greeks whom I never even met!)

--Tim

[White Elk]

Conquered in 1990 AD for 2377 points

Fun game, At times it played out like an Historic Novel.

The first German milestone was the Russian conquest in 70 BC. Fifteen hundred years of peace and prosperity followed as the Germans built cities of science and commerce.

Then in 1515 AD as the Germans were settling the last of the wildlands, The Romans encroached on German soil. The Romans were promptly expelled and the Age of the Roman Wars was born. The Persians enganged the Romans in the South as the Germans conquered the Roman Iron Works in the East and cutoff the Iron works in the North. In the years that followed the Germans conquered the Roman Heartland, cutting a swath from East to West, dividing the once great Roman Empire. At some time in the 1600's the treacherous Persians broke the military alliance. It is believed they traded precious resources to the Romans. In any case, in 1760 AD the Roman continent was conquered, peace was declared, and the Roman's were exilled to the Northern Isles.

In the latter years of the Roman Wars a great leader emerged. This leader established an auxillary government in the conquered lands and another German Age of Prosperity had begun. In 1824 AD the Germans discovered the Theory of Evolution and thus began the German Golden Age in which great factories and universities were built. The German science was now equal to that of the great powers of the English and the Americans. The German people rejoiced.

Then in 1834 AD, after a few years of hostilities, the Persians declared war. In a short twelve year conflict the Persian society was conquered and assimilated into the German Empire. A few decades later the German scientists would lead the German people to scientific dominance of the World. The Germans "sold" technologies to the English and Americans allowing the Germans to focus all commerce on the pursuit of new technologies.

In the early 1900's for reasons only they know, the Americans declared war on the Germans. The entire German nation mobilzed for war and the English, who had been at war with the Americans before, were quick to join forces. In the years that followed the bulk of the war effort was carried by the English who obliterated the American Navy with their great Frigates and harrased the American island colonies.

It was not until 1960 that the Germans would attack American soil. The Germans had amassed a military force unlike any the World had seen before. Their great Panzer tanks rolled across America conquering all that stood before them. Although the American military was completely overwhelmed and was unable to muster an adequate defense, the American people ressisted bitterly, retaking their conquered cities from within. Even so, the American civilization was conquered in 1967 after seven years of conflict.

After the American conquest, the German relations with the English deteriated. After a short time the Germans put off their "conquest of the stars" in favor of a new World Order in which all nations would be one. The English weren't interested in this new World Order, and the Germans declared war in 1982. The English were conquered in 1990 and a new Age of World Unity and space exploration began. The End.

A note on the last turn: I apologize in advance to those that process these tournament games. The last turn consists of six battles on four different islands.

[Carcajou]

Yesterday I send my message to Forum-Help ...(lookink for HELP)
Today I send it to Forum-Strategy...(using new thread)
This time I hope to succeed.

I reloaded the game, being destroyed by the Russians in 2000 BC,
my settler was searching a site for the second city.

By the rules, I am not illegible for the tournement !

Very good scenario and the best place to learn tips and tricks.


Carcajou

[dix2der]

Platypus: you said you may have waited too long to switch to Republic, but I think you were right. I decided to switch to Democracy as soon as the Persians made peace, I became tech leader, and one turn after my first selling of technology to Americans, the remains of Persians Empire attacked me. My democracy was overthrown. Three times we made peace, three times they attacked, three times I was putted into anarchy, until I definitely get rid of them. From the 1st to last city, they refused to acknowledge my envoys, and England and America were flying to victory... I couldn't finished the game in time.

So the lesson is: when you have begun smother the cat, you have to finish it!

[DrSpike]

The endgame takes _ahem_ quite a while with this game, so I haven't managed to finish in time. Bring on tourney 5, I'll play from the first day it comes out

I'll also post my tourney 4 thoughts when I finish the game; hopefully this thread will still be alive by then.

[White Elk]

After switching to Monarchy, I never did switch to another government. I had planned to switch to Democracy and try for an early colinization of Alpha Centari, but the time never seemed right. Espescially considering the lenghty period of Anarchy and the very poor starting position. The whole game seemed to be about catching up, even when I was leading the tech race.

I think it would be interesting to play Tournament 5 on this same map, but in the Americans starting location. Or even better to start in the same location but modified. So the continent is bigger with more grassland, has another luxury resource, has another Iron resource, has access to fresh water, and has a good location for Iron Works (ie: Iron and Coal within 1 city radius). What do you think???

[Duncan Idaho]

Originally posted by White Elk
What do you think???

Definitely not. Forehand knowledge of the map and the opponents' starting locations eliminates the challenge (thrill) of the initial exploration phase. Challenge is what keeps one on ones toes and allows one to excel.

BTW, nice narrative You sound almost like a Discovery documentary.

[DrSpike]

I agree with Duncan, foreknowledge of the map is bad. Also the American's starting position on Monarch would not really be a challenge. Given the starting location in this game I would presume there was a lot of conquering going on. Perhaps the next game should be an early launch game, say emperor level.

Personally I think the earliest finish for each victory type are the most impressive games, with score being largely irrelevant.

[MarkG]

many thanks to all the participants


any volunteers to process the results(yes Conqueror i still havent published the 1st tournament results should be done over the weekend)

[La Fayette]

Thanks to you, Mark. This one was really challenging.
(but I have a feeling that very few players finished it in time, and this leads me to suggest that the next one would be somewhat easier so that many of us go on having pleasure with those tournaments, not only the happy few,...since the happy few can always have a try at conquering or landing sooner)

(La Fayette, retired 'enlightened despot' )

[DrSpike]

I don't think it's the difficulty level leading to players not finishing in time. I am doing fine in my game, I just couldn't complete it before the deadline because the turns at the end take so long. Perhaps a slightly longer playing time?

Or did you mean players not finishing by 2050? If that is the case then I wouldn't suggest dropping the difficulty level below Monarch, just don't be so mean with the starting position.

[Chemical Ollie]

AARRGGHH - did this map suck? Or more like it, I suck on this map?

I played it twice. First time I gave up in AD 1970 with a score of ~1000. Second game, tournament time ran out when I had 5900 years of sslow but successful wars to conquer Ivans, Spagettis and Ayatollahs. I stayed in monarchy due to the wars. Current score was 1400 but would probably be about 2000 if I had played to the end. I was already #1 in land mass.

I get on with the 5th tour instead. Seems more fun with a better starting position and the challenge of culturally strong enemies. Let me guess that the most succesful contestants will conquer the world in BC years. I hate to play the Zulu, but have learned an simple strategy that I will try.

[Spaced Cowboy]

Damn, I could never get this game finished. I'm in 1250 AD with over 100 units to move each turn. Russians gone, Romans gone, Persian are three cities (matter of time) from being gone. Took them all out with a horde of whipped horsemen and ICS. As soon as I can get my forces across the ocean, the rest will be gone too.

I also found a really cool strategy. Leave your whipping one population city producing wealth on every turn except the turn before it goes to size two. On that turn change it to what you want to whip (horseman, galley, harbor, etc). Next turn whip your unit. Next turn go back to wealth. This can net you quite a bit of gold with ICS and still have plenty o units for the slaughter.

Horseman rule! It sucks to not have my favorite Mounted Warriors. They are too strong.

[White Elk]

Originally posted by Duncan Idaho
Definitely not. Forehand knowledge of the map and the opponents' starting locations eliminates the challenge

Actually, I agree. Often I gamble the sinking of Galleys to gain early contacts with the other Civs. The risk/reward of that gamble and other explorations would definately be diminished. I just think it would have been interesting to compare the two games. Especially with such diverse starting locations.

BTW, nice narrative You sound almost like a Discovery documentary.

Thanks, though I probably shouldn't quit my day job.

[Sirian]

Now that this one is winding down, here's a little bit about how I handled my early game.

The Start Location: there's enough information right at the start to move in the correct direction without cheating. Obviously plunking down right there was not a good option, as it would cost more turns than just to move to a better location. I was almost tempted to head north, since a game was up there and I saw green peeking that might be grass. BUT... then I looked over at the minimap and saw that I was near the northern icecap, not the southern. This had to mean that everything above me was also ice, and those green spots had to be hills. The direction to head in to find good land was south. I walked just far enough to reach some grass, settled in the last tundra square, which would ultimately let my capital just barely reach size 20. Perfect! In fact, if I had gone any farther my position would actually have been weakened! I had no idea at that moment HOW LITTLE good land there was.

There was room for two GOOD cities in the immediate vicinity, and the one on the right would get more grassland into play immediately so I settled it first, then the one below, near the wheat. I then had three cities, saw that the rest of the land in the region was dismal, and decided that this rock wasn't big enough for the both of us (Germany and Russia) so I cranked some archers, trained them up on the barbarians, and waited for a good looking opportunity to attack, going right for their capital while I still had only three cities. I won that fight, but barely, and got two of the other three Russian cities in the bargain. I then settled in to rapid expansion, dumping settlers into every possible location, nook and cranny and crevice, no matter how sad the city would be. Two would never get above 7, another 9, another 11, and a couple at 12, but it was better than nothing. Since I had all this land early, I decided to wait for the industrial age to do any more war. I knew that would mean less score for me (score is kinda odd in this game, very heavily weighted toward territory over time, favoring ancient aggression) but I would get to panzers asap and put them all out of their misery.

I was behind in tech until my forbidden palace in Moscow was completed in the heart of the middle ages. After that, ALL of my cities were low corruption, all heavy with coastline and trade, and I started catching up. I never did get any great leaders, or at least not until it was too late to matter (rolling through America in the late 1800's), so my conquest victory was earned on the back of expansion efficiency.


- Sirian

[MarkG]

Duncan processed the results, i'll post them later today

[adamb]

OK, the game as it stands: moved my settler N/E to get the bonus food square, and then started a painful crawl towards the pesky Russians. After finding the horse resource ive built up an army of 8 units and just managed to take my first Russian city. Hopefully my horse army can steamroll over the Russian army and take out their swordsmen. Going to battle through, but with my capital so far away corruption is getting totally out of control. Im guessing im totally behind in tech and cites compared to the other cities....

[White Elk]

Originally posted by MarkG
Duncan processed the results, i'll post them later today

Am I looking in the wrong place or did something happen to delay the posting of the results?

Originally posted by MarkG
any volunteers to process the results

I offer my help for this and future games

[MarkG]

my computer at home crashed. i'm geting it back from service today...

[philler]

if it's not too late, I'll submit my game.

I never had time to finish this tournament and it's now obvious that I never will, so I'll retire and hopefully win the retirement part of the tournament

[Sirian]

my computer at home crashed. i'm geting it back from service today...

That was two weeks ago.

When can we expect some results? And when is the next game starting?

- Sirian

[nbarclay]

I didn't get into tournament play in time to compete in this one officially, but I figured I'd post my results anyhow. Normally, I'm not a big fan of diplomatic victory, but in this particular game, things worked out where a diplomatic ending made perfect sense. That came about in about 1854-1856. (I'm a bit fuzzy on the years since these victories happen more or less between turns.)

I then decided that I might as well back up to the turn before the diplomatic victory and win with a space race victory too. That happened in 1878-1880.

If I had thought to save the game right after I conquered Persia, I probably would have played out an alternate route to a domination victory as well. I had my basic strategy mapped out and probably plenty of firepower and technology, but with every country left in the world polite toward me, I just couldn't justify the bloodshed .

I'm also posting a story based on this game to the Stories forum, and probably telling a little more about the diplomatic aspect on the General forum.

Here's the diplomatic victory ending, in case anyone cares.

[nbarclay]

And here's the space race alternate ending. (St. Petersburg or some other city has to be switched over to building the Planetary Party Lounge since I just got Laser technology.)