Another Age of War PBEM

[Cyrion]

Winterfritz: no worries mate!

Just contact me before you play your next turn so that we can meet online during it and do the trade!!

BTW: enjoy your holiday, you lucky guy...

[JamesJKirk]

Borders Change: Some Happy, Some Sad
Citizens of the Egyptian Republic cheered as the Khedive extended his claims of sovereignty to Cyrenaica and West Palestine. Meanwhile, those in the Hellenic Federation protested at their loss of Cyprus, and fear more may be coming. Commonwealth Prime Minister Kirk assured the Greeks that any loss of territory would lead to benefits for those remaining in the Commonwealth. But naysayers wondered aloud if more Greeks lived in the Hellenic Federation or in the Ottoman Empire. Still the swap was approved by all local legislatures involved as well as the Commonwealth Parliament.

Kirk Looks Forward to Meeting with Italian PM Case Next Month

[The ANZAC]

Russia is annoyed at the British cession of Cyprus to Turkey. Many of our fellow Orthodox brethren are now at the mercy of the Turks and Russia would like to have some funding from Turkey to support Orthodox relief efforts to Orthodox Christians everywhere. Or which would be better, more influence over Orthdox subjects of the Ottoman Empire.

[Case]

Kirk: check your PMs - we need to arange a time to make that swap

[Case]

Iraklion Added to Italy!

Through negotiations with Britain, Italy has aquired ownership of the city of Iraklion. In an unusual move, the city will not be made part of Italy proper, but will be ruled by the Italian Navy, who intend to use it's fine harbour as the homeport for the new 4th Fleet.

4th Fleet Exercises Freedom of the Sea

A squadron of destroyers from the 4th Fleet has entered the Dardenelles. After saluting the Turkish batteries, the squadron has anchored in the sea of Marmara were the ship's crews are enjoying the finest Turkish goods Italian Lire can purchase.

[JamesJKirk]

The Commonwealth Cabinet issued a statement today expressed concern over Russia's new position on the Orthodox minority in the Ottoman Empire. The cabinet wished to remind Russia that religious minorities have enjoyed legal protection in the Ottoman Empire for over 50 years, and that it's enlightened Sultan may be moving Turkey on the path to more representative government.

If Russia finds these arguments to be not persuasive enough, then the British Commonwealth supports Russia wholeheartedly. So much so, that we hope that Russia will remember to give a healthy donation to the Commonwealth on behalf of its citizens in the Hellenic Federation. Likewise, as Britain seeks to make sure of the safety and freedom of its Protestant bretheren, we are sure that Russia wouldn't mind furnishing an expense fund to Britain to provide that Protestants in Russian Germany, Sweden, Finland and the Baltics are well cared for. Also Britain urges Russia to pay France and Italy to ensure that Catholics aren't persecuted in Poland or Austria. Naturally Britian will provide funds to France and Italy because of the Catholics in British Iberia, but on the condition France pays off Britain for its Huguenout population. Obviously Britian will pay the Ottomans for having Muslims in Egypt as well, and hopes Russia will do the same for its Muslims in the Caucausus.

[Cyrion]

Answering to the Russian declaration regarding their religious concern, the Ottoman Government wishes to make a few points:

1) as our British Friends reminded every Nation, the Ottoman Empire has been protecting his religious minorities for a long time now, and every Ottoman citizen is free to practice his religion, as long as this doesn't turn into political reunions!!

2) if the religious minorities are a problem for Russia, the Ottoman Empire would be glad to accept all the unwanted Muslims currently living in the Russian Empire (in other words, feel free to give me any engineer you want me to join to my cities... )

3) as the Commonwealth Cabinet so accurately stated, every european Nation has it's share of religious minorities, and the Ottoman Government thanks the Czar for bringing up the subject BEFORE it's a problem anywhere. So we propose a Synod to take place near Bursa, in the city of Iznik (ancient Nicea ) to discuss the fate of the religious minorities and work towards religious tolerance.


On another subject, the merchants and traders from the coastal towns of the Marmara Sea reports that the Italian sailors are well-behaved customers and wishes to congratulate the Italian Navy for a rarely seen among sailors discipline! The only worry being that a "baby-boom" might be expected in 9 month...

The Ottoman Government wishes to remind all foreign Navies that, as stated in the January 1901 Declaration, we would like to be informed BEFORE any foreign military ship cross the Dardanelles, so that our fishermen aren't too frightened at the view of your impressive battleships. Of course, this doesn't apply to the civilian freighters...

[The ANZAC]

Originally posted by JamesJKirk ...religious minorities have enjoyed legal protection in the Ottoman Empire for over 50 years...

Really? Then I guess the Bulgarian Massacre of the 1870's and the recent Armenian massacre at the turn of the century were just figments of my imagination

Likewise, as Britain seeks to make sure of the safety and freedom of its Protestant bretheren, we are sure that Russia wouldn't mind furnishing an expense fund to Britain to provide that Protestants in Russian Germany, Sweden, Finland and the Baltics are well cared for.

First Protestantism isn't a single religion and religious freedom has already been given in Germany by the Peace of Augsburg in the mid-1500's. Also Russia has no problem with other Christian minorities.

Also Britain urges Russia to pay France and Italy to ensure that Catholics aren't persecuted in Poland or Austria. Obviously Britian will pay the Ottomans for having Muslims in Egypt as well, and hopes Russia will do the same for its Muslims in the Caucausus.

See the above. Also Russia is the defender of the Eastern Orthodox faith, not just any Christian faith and the Ottomans do not have the same status concerning Islam. There.

[Case]

Originally posted by Cyrion
The Ottoman Government wishes to remind all foreign Navies that, as stated in the January 1901 Declaration, we would like to be informed BEFORE any foreign military ship cross the Dardanelles, so that our fishermen aren't too frightened at the view of your impressive battleships. Of course, this doesn't apply to the civilian freighters...

You know, I remembered that about 5 minutes after I posted the turn

[Cyrion]

To Case: no problem!!


And now, a bit OOC:

Originally posted by The ANZAC

Really? Then I guess the Bulgarian Massacre of the 1870's and the recent Armenian massacre at the turn of the century were just figments of my imagination

1) About the Bulgarian massacre, I don't know much about the period, but from what I found on it, it seems it was more a repression against rebels trying to get independence than a religious matter!!

2) I found this (you can check on http://www.bulgaria.com/history/bulgaria/revival.html ) and it seems that christians were allowed to practice their religion in the Ottoman Empire, and even to have their own religious authorities:

"The Bulgarian society reacted sharply to the nationalistic ambitions of the patriarchal in Constantinople. The local communities led a stubborn struggle against the Greek bishops' presence in the Bulgarian bishoprics. Meanwhile a network of Bulgarian elementary and secondary schools was set up. The Bulgarian initial demands boiled down to requests for the replacement of the Greek bishops with Bulgarian ones and for the wide-spread use of the Bulgarian language in church service. The patriarchal in Constantinople was relentless which made the Bulgarians claim full independence of the Bulgarian church immediately after the Crimean War in 1858. Between 1856-1860 the Greek bishops were expelled from everywhere. A national center took shape around the Bulgarian community in Constantinople, attracting eminent writers and public figures. That center took up the leadership of church independence struggle. On 3 April 1860, during Easter Sunday service in Constantinople, the Bulgarian bishop Illusion of Makariopol expressed the will of the whole Bulgarian people by solemnly proclaiming the separation of the Bulgarian church from the patriarchal in Constantinople. The day commemorating the Resurrection of Jesus Christ coincided with the resuscitation of the Bulgarian people. However, that unilateral act of the Bulgarians was not sanctioned either by the see of Constantinople or by the Turkish government. Russia, in her capacity as patron of the Orthodox peoples within the boundaries of the Muslim empire - a right obtained as a result of her victories over the Turks, did not approve of it either. The struggle continued for another ten years. It was only when the Catholic propaganda in the Bulgarian lands became disturbingly successful that Russia changed her attitude and, eventually, forced Turkey to recognize de jure the situation which had existed de facto. In 1870 a firman of the sultan decreed the establishment of an autonomous Bulgarian church institution - the Bulgarian exarchate. All lands inhabited by Bulgarians in Moesia, Thrace, Dobrudja and a large part of Macedonia came under its jurisdiction. "

3) And last: the Armenian Genocide occured in 1915, so... don't hold against the Ottoman Empire something that might only happen (if it does!!) in 11 years...

[The ANZAC]

More OOC/Helping my case

Originally posted by Cyrion
3) And last: the Armenian Genocide occured in 1915, so... don't hold against the Ottoman Empire something that might only happen (if it does!!) in 11 years...

OK I read this in encarta, but I also found this on the net at http://www.armenian-genocide.org/enc...ia/ottoman.htm

"In the face of international condemnation, and despite changes in government, the Hamidian policies were applied with regularity over the course of the next thirty years. In a series of genocidal massacres repeated in 1895-1896, 1909, 1915-1918, and 1920-1922, the Armenian population of Turkey was annihilated. The Armenian, also called Hamidian, massacres of 1894-1896 affected all of historic Armenia and Constantinople. The 1909 or Adana massacre devastated Cilicia. The combined deportations and massacres during World War I acquired the dimensions of total genocide and was implemented by the Young Turks who had removed Abdul-Hamid from the throne in 1909. The atrocities between 1920-1922 were committed by the Nationalist Turks who seized power in the Anatolian hinterland in the final years of the Ottoman Empire and created the Turkish Republic."

Also this is in your article:

Russia, in her capacity as patron of the Orthodox peoples within the boundaries of the Muslim empire - a right obtained as a result of her victories over the Turks

So it was generally accepted for Russia to control the Orthodox population in Turkish lands.

again:

...Russia changed her attitude and, eventually, forced Turkey to recognize de jure the situation which had existed de facto.

So the Ottomans DID do it but only at the pushing of the Russians.

[Cyrion]

Originally posted by The ANZAC
Also this is in your article:

So it was generally accepted for Russia to control the Orthodox population in Turkish lands.

I was hoping you wouldn't see it...

BTW, you didn't answer to my proposal to accept your muslim engineers in my cities...

[The ANZAC]

Son't worry you'll pay for your mistake

Well, I am the defender of the Orthodox faith, but the same status among Islam doesn't apply to you

IIRC Islam is a very decentralized religion with little or no central authority or at least the mainstream form,Sunni, is like this, and the lesser Shia is somewhat more centralized (I stress somewhat, though I am not too knowledgable about Islam).

[Cyrion]

I thought that the Ottoman Sultan played the card of "Defender of Islam", even if not all the islamic world recognized his authority? He was, after all, the most powerful muslim ruler, and by far!

I'll have to check that...

Edit: Hey, with this post I just became a Prince! Is that better than a Sultan ??

[winterfritz]

Russia, in her capacity as patron of the Orthodox peoples within the boundaries of the Muslim empire - a right obtained as a result of her victories over the Turks

Considering these victories occurred many years ago, in a very different Europe to the one we live in today, France feels it is time for a revision of Russia's status as protector of Orthodox Christians in the Ottoman Empire. There is no evidence that this minority is being repressed by the Turks; the last massacres of Armenians in 1895-6 occuring before the present administration came to power (ie when the scenario started.)

Whilst strongly disapproving of any oppression of minorites and undemocratic behaviour in general, France feels that there is no reason to believe that the government of Grand Vizier Cyrion is a hostile one to the Orthodox Christians under its jurisdiction.

Thus as it stands, Russia's claim to be the protector of Orthodox Christians in Turkey is a violation of Ottoman sovereignty and an affront to Ottoman national dignity. How can the Sultan administer his territory when being opposed by a semi-autonomous minority within his lands? This is what Russia's requests for 'more influence over Orthdox subjects of the Ottoman Empire' amount to. Similarly Russia has no right to ask for repartations from the Turkish government without first presenting proof of recent Ottoman persecution of its Orthodox Christian minorities.

[winterfritz]

BTW: What does OOC stand for?

And Case, I just got back from a short trip to Albury/Wodonga; about 2/3 of the way to Canberra from here

Prince Cyrion: congrats

[winterfritz]

Spain officially a part of the Third Republic
In a plebiscite held this month, the Spanish people overwhelmingly decided to formally become a part of the Third Republic which had liberated them from the insane despot, General AI (92% for, 2% against, 5% undecided, 1% the banana vote )

It is thought that the benevolent French administration, as well as the unparalleled prosperity Spain has enjoyed under it, were the deciding factors in the landslide decision. Even now the hard work of providing the penninsular with a modern rail-network continues as contractors, completing the lines in Northern Spain, prepare to extend them down to Valencia and Cartagena in the next few months.

[JamesJKirk]

OOC= Out of Character


at least that's what I've always perceived it to be

[Cyrion]

According to reliable sources, the Young Turks made their move last week: the fate of the Sultan is unknown as for yet, but His Magnificence no longer seems to be in charge of the country!

Whether Grand Vizier Cyrion or General Enver Pasha leads the country now can only be guessed! The only certain thing is that the Ottoman Empire is in anarchy for now!

Various influent members of the Sultan court as well as reprensentative of the Young Turks declared that this is a strictly INTERNAL turkish matter that will be settled really soon without any foreign intervention!!

And the save:

[The ANZAC]

France: you only are not going to dictate to Great Russia what or what not her status is with the Ottoman Empire.

PS I AM serious

[JamesJKirk]

The British Commonwealth warns all nations to not take advantage of the situation in the Ottoman Empire, and to let Turkey sort things out for herself over the next few months

[The ANZAC]

It is funny how Britain and France seem to denounce Russia for her acknowledged Orthodox stance, yet seem to be putting their tentacles of influence over Turkish policies

Turkey: Do you have alliances with Britain and/or France? If so, back out of these agreements before they become your obituaries.

[Case]

Italy intends to stick to its' non-agression pact with Turkey.

[The ANZAC]

I have no problem against Italy, as it has not been championing it's imperialist interests in Turkey.

[Case]

OK, I'll champion them in the Ukraine instead

[winterfritz]

France: you only are not going to dictate to Great Russia what or what not her status is with the Ottoman Empire.

Au contraire. Though France has no formal pact or alliance with Turkey, French industrialists do have important trade interests vested in the Ottoman Empire. Also, our government has enjoyed a cordial and friendly relationship with the Turkish leaders for many years. So do not think we will tolerate your attempts to infringe on the sovereignty of the Ottoman state. We have every right to come to the defence of our Turkish friends in the face of Russian imperialistic aggression.

It is funny how Britain and France seem to denounce Russia for her acknowledged Orthodox stance, yet seem to be putting their tentacles of influence over Turkish policies

France and Britain have nothing but the best intentions towards the Ottoman Empire; it is the Russians, rather, who seek to control its member peoples, as can be seen by reading through the statements of the Russian government:

Russia would like to have some funding from Turkey to support Orthodox relief efforts to Orthodox Christians everywhere. Or which would be better, more influence over Orthdox subjects of the Ottoman Empire.

...Russia to control the Orthodox population in Turkish lands.

Do you have alliances with Britain and/or France? If so, back out of these agreements before they become your obituaries.

France and Britain, in contrast, have only expressed concern at these Russian attempts to infringe on Turkish sovereignty. The Orthodox Christian minority in question is a part of the Ottoman nation and subject to Ottoman authority. Without evidence that this minority is being persecuted - and France has noticed that Russia has avoided trying to refute our arguments that this minority is indeed undergoing no repression now or in the recent past - Russia has no right to ask for influence over the subjects of another sovereign nation. Such a request is an affront to Turkey's status as an independent power in its own right and would reduce it to the status of a Russian semi-colony.

Your status as protector of the Orthodox faith - though remaining unacknowledged by the present French administration, as it is largely a dead letter in the modern day international situation - does not even have any relevance to the present situation, because as we have said, there is no evidence that the Orthodox Christian minority in the Ottoman Empire has undergone persecution now or under the most recent administration.

France also deplores Russia's aggressive and unfounded claims in the face of our rational argument. It saddens us to see that there are still European leaders who persist in sabre-rattling rather than trying to solve problems in a civilized and logical fashion.

[JamesJKirk]

Britain in no way seeks to control Turkish policies. If you read her previous statement, it was a warning to other nations to do the same. Britain and Turkey have a strong alliance, not one of junior-senior members, but of equals, as we each have things to offer one another. We ask Russia not to use the turmoil in Turkey as an excuse to meddle in the affairs of the protected Orthodox minority in the Ottoman Empire. Please wait for a less chaotic situation in the Empire for an opportunity to discuss things with the triumphant government. Heed your own calls and don't seek to interfere with a sovereign empire with the tentacles of imperialism. Discuss your grievances as equals upon the formation of a new Turkish government. The British Commonwealth would be glad to host any talks at Malta. Note that while the Commonwealth government, and all member governments, including that of Greece, do not acknowledge your claim to be protector of the Orthodox faith, we feel that we should discuss any matters as equally situated gentlemen.

[JamesJKirk]

Hmmm, my game no longer has a password, does anyone know why this could be?

[The ANZAC]

That has happened to me inexplicably in other PBEMs as well. Somehow I doubt it is cheating: why would anyone be stupid enough to pass on the doctored file

[JamesJKirk]

I'll download my last turn to see if it's like that, which could mean I accidentally chose to delete the password. I'll have to do that later, since I'm not on a computer w/ civ on it.

I was being the optimist and waiting for a non-cheating explanation