Sorry? Mutual WHAT Pact?

Chowlett · January 13, 2002, 12:54

As far as I was aware, a Mutual Protection Pact required you to go to war only if the other end of the pact was attacked. Not if they were the aggressor.

So why is it that when Ghandi decides to attack me for no obvious reason, despite the fact he declared war, next turn I was facing the english and Iroquois as well.

This wouldn't bother me so much, but then, after America and France join the fray against me for no readily obvious reason, I make peace with the Iroquois. Fine, one enemy off my back. But ohhh no. The English, who I'm still at war with, form an MPP with the Aztecs. Who declare on me next turn. Wtf? That surely shouldn't happen.

Sorry, just a little annoyed. It would make a whole lot more sense if you were forced to come to your ally's aid only if he was attacked.

spy14 · January 13, 2002, 13:21

Especially annoying since if you declare war on someone, the others in your mpp pact will have nothing to do with it

TinCow · January 13, 2002, 13:35

I think a MPP makes the allied civs declare war when you attack a unit of their allies. As such, when a civ declares war on you, his allies will only declare war (via the MPP) when you attack one of the attacking civs units. Theoretically, you could avoid this by only defending.

At least, this is the way it seems to work to me.

Expatriate · January 13, 2002, 13:43

TinCow is right. You can also use that the other way around by declaring a war on someone and then sitting back to let him attack your units. Then your MPP partners will come to your defense even though you started the war.

Jaybe · January 13, 2002, 15:05

My previous experience with MPPs is that you must avoid attacking or even bombarding any unit in their territory. I ended up reverting to an earlier saved game to verify that this is how it works.

This was with version 1.07f (pre-patch).

justjake73 · January 13, 2002, 17:25

I never ever ever join any alliance with the AI. The Chinese once asked me to join them in a MPP, I refused, the NEXT turn they declared war on the Indians. My strategy is build up a large defense force, fortify your borders, and act friendly. Aggressive war on your part does little but cause your people to riot.

This reminds me of Imperialism I. I joined an alliance with civ A, civ B declared war on me, weasally "ally" civ A immediately breaks the alliance and 2 turns later declares war on ME! >: >:

Dienstag · January 13, 2002, 19:34

Thank you all for your insights on MPPs. I'm still trying to figure out how best to use them. In my current game I had wiped out 3 civs and so owned 2 continents and some islands. However, the English had been going on a rampage on the other, much bigger, continent, reducing the Aztecs to 5 scattered cities and holding the French to a fair-sized corner. Judging the English to be my main competition, I formed MPPs with the other 2 civs and soon declared war. I have yet to see any substantial Aztec contributions to the war, and the French only managed to pick off a small border town in the time it took me to cut a swath through the English heartland. By this time I signed for peace to avoid absurdly high war-weariness. Soon thereafter I noticed a fleet of French frigates heading toward English territorry, almost certainly to bombard anything that had escaped the attention of my battleships and carriers. Altogether, the only tangible benefit of those MPPs is that they weren't attacking me. So I guess it was worth it.

Chowlett · January 13, 2002, 20:10

Quote:

Originally posted by TinCow
I think a MPP makes the allied civs declare war when you attack a unit of their allies. As such, when a civ declares war on you, his allies will only declare war (via the MPP) when you attack one of the attacking civs units. Theoretically, you could avoid this by only defending.

At least, this is the way it seems to work to me.

No, this can't be right. In one memorable turn, At the start of my upkeep, I get told that my Wines deal is about to run out, and sure enough the Aztecs call me up ending the deal. I negotiate another one. I play my turn. The English then sign a MPP with the Aztecs, and when the Aztec upkeep comes round, they declare war on me. In between times, I cannot possibly have attacked anything, since I haven't even moved.

Jumping Choya · January 13, 2002, 20:20

If you play your cards right, you can really alter the course of a war. Here's an experiment from one of my games:

The Germans signed an MPP with the Chinese. Soon after, they declared war on me, and move some units into my territory but they don't attack. I destroy what he moved into my territory. Chinese remain neutrual. I revved up a bomber and attacked a city. Chinese declare war on me.

I reload, and sign an MPP with the Chinese. Germans declare war, and move the units in again which I destroy. Chinese don't do anything. I use the bomber, and the Chinese declare war on me.

Last of all, the same situation happens, except I don't touch their territory. I wait for them to attack me on my turf, and the Chinese declare war on the Germans.

As far as I can tell, unclaimed land is also okay. Using this little trick, you can sign MPPs with all of your enemy's friends, and put something like a worker out in the open as bait. And because the AI loves to go after workers, they'll capture it, and find themselves at war with all their former allies.

Skanky Burns · January 13, 2002, 20:23

They probably just declared war on you 'cuz they felt like it

With MPPs, you will be forced to come to your ally's aid if they have been attacked in their own territory, or had their territory bombarded or pillaged.

If you have an MPP with Aztecs, and they declare war with Germany, you will still be at peace. If Aztecs then invade Germany, attack a few times, win a few, lose a few battles, you will still be at peace. Then on Germany's turn, they might counter-attack the invading Aztecs. Win or lose, you will still be at peace with the Germans.

Now, the Germans decide to take the fight into the Aztecs territory. The send a bomber in to hit an insignificant piece of road somewhere in the backwaters of Aztecia. NOW you will be forced to declare war.

Hope this example clears up just how MPPs work, and how you can use them to your advantage. Obviously, if a civ can declare war without having their MPP activated. In the above example, Germany at the start could have declared war on You also, so even thought both You and your ally, the Aztecs are at war with the Germans, the MPP didnt cause that outcome.

Chowlett · January 13, 2002, 20:42

Still very odd, since I got the "They had a mutual protection pact" message from my foreign affairs advisor. Could it be because I was standing in English territory?

Jonny · January 13, 2002, 23:17

Here are my two suggestions about MPP's for a patch:

1. If you have an MPP with someone and they are attacked, you should have the chance to back out of the MPP (with severe diplomatic penalties with that civ.)

2. Let's say that CivA has MPPs with CivB and CivC. CivB and CivC then go to war. CivA should have the chance to decide which Civ they will help (CivB or CivC). If CivA helps CivB, the MPP with CivC is broken (and vice versa.) CivA would also have the option to back out of both MPPs (with severe diplomatic penalties with those civs.)

Lancer · January 14, 2002, 00:11

Jonny, that should be called the 'Italian option'.

Heres a situation I've run into in my game.

I wanted to attack the English so I signed an MPP w/ the Indians to keep the English from bringing them into the war causing a second front and general war w/ two powerful rivals. Good idea right? All is great, the attack is about to jump off, when the Indians sign an MPP w/ the English too!

So, anyone know which way the Indians will go if I hit the English?

Jumping Choya · January 14, 2002, 01:38

Declare war on the English, and bait them into your territory. Let them attack a unit of yours in your territory, and the Indians should be with you.

Bautou · January 14, 2002, 03:20

I noticed one oddity with MPP's in a recent game: Late in the game there were only me and 3 other civs left. Everyone was linked to everyone else with a MPP. I decide to cause a little trouble, and attack one of the civs. There was absolutely no fighting on my territory, all fighting was done on that civ's territory, and it was a totally aggressive war on my part.

However, that civ's MPP partners (who were also my MPP partners) did not declare war on me. In fact, on the next turn they all declared war on the civ I attacked (and that civ hadn't even bothered to counter-attack me). It seems multiple alliances may muck things up a bit.

kailhun · January 14, 2002, 04:40

MPP's tend to have strange effects.
In one game I was at war with the Aztecs. During the upkeep fase they sign a MPP with the English (I think), the English declare war on me whereupon the Aztecs make peace with me.

Robert

Lancer · January 14, 2002, 19:35

Good answer JC, thanks.

Thue · January 16, 2002, 08:56

I had a game where I was the most powerfull nation, and all the others were making MPPs right and left to protect against me, to the point that they were all involved in the web.

So what to do? I made friends with one of them and made him declare war on another of them. Then I sat back and watched cascating MPPs result in a huge war, and how they used all their ressources to combat each other

. (I was able to stay out of most of the fighting myself, staying in democracy and without mobilization

)

Murtin · January 16, 2002, 10:17

It does seem like MPPs work in strange ways. My most memorable (and infuriating) example: At the end of my turn, I am at peace with both India and England. Then, during their turn, India declares war on me. And immediately, England declares war on me too, because "they had a mutual protection pact". There was no Indian aggression towards me in between. And I know I didn't do anything, since it was between turns for me.

I am utterly unable to figure out the set of rules to make this happen. Or could it be that England just felt like declaring war anyway, and my advisor is jumping to conclusions regarding the causes?

Marquis de Sodaq · January 16, 2002, 10:36

Thue brings up a key element to counteract the MPPs against you. You can still get alliances for war against somebody else, dragging all of their friends into the fray. With the right situation, you can sit and watch while the AIs butt heads. Or hover nearby to mop up once the bodies are piling up.

Random Passerby · January 16, 2002, 12:32

The AI civilizations are perfectly capable of joining a war voluntarily, without any outside prodding. They're especially likely to do this when a favored ally is fighting a hated enemy, and MPPs definitely seem to give a massive relations boost (they seem to be one of the only ways I can manage to get an AI civilization to become Gracious).

I usually play to avoid wiping out any civs, ever, so usually I'll try to cut a weaker civ to shreds and then zealously guard their sovereignty to prevent any other civilizations from wiping them out, which can sometimes involve MPPs post-nationalism. Not always, because I'm just trying to protect them if another nation threatens them... I don't want to drag them into my own wars with major world powers. But I find that usually they'll eventually join in any major war I get into anyways, because they're just good allies even if they have no formal obligation to fight. I've had this happen a few times with civs that just happened to be Gracious without any MPPs or alliances (part of my effort to keep all civs on the map includes giving key tech and resources to downtrodden nations if necessary, although it still seems to take a LOT to get them up to Gracious).

Myrddin · January 16, 2002, 19:07

The AI also seems to join into an existing war if it can see 1 side is seriously outmatched and so can expect to gain by picking the winning side

Spatzimaus · January 17, 2002, 18:28

I had a doozy in an early 16-way Huge game. Persians, and I'm in first place (barely) thanks to a lucky geographical distribution and an early wipeout of the Babylonians (complete with a leader to build the FP).

I've just reached Chivalry, but I can't make any Knights, because I don't have horses. I need horses. I'm between the Greeks (5 horses) and the Egyptians (2), and the Egyptians have been giving me trouble. I try invading with Immortals, no luck. So, I go back and spend all my treasury and a tech to:
1> Buy horses from the Greeks for 20 turns
2> Build as many Knights in those 20 as I can
3> Pay Greece and Rome to fight Egypt with me, and pay America to fight Russia, China to fight Japan, and the Aztec to fight the Iriquois (hey, a world war keeps them off my back)
4> Make a right-of-passage agreement with Rome and Greece

I invade Egypt, grab a few cities and one horse, and sue for peace. Greece and Rome continue sending troops through my territory (and Egypt can't stop them without stepping on my land), and pretty much wipe out the Egyptian counterattack while I make more Knights. Then I finish wiping out the Egyptians, attacking through the new Roman and Greek lands.
When it's all over, I've got a triple-sized empire, two loyal allies, and the rest of the world has beaten itself up. With MPPs this would have been MUCH easier.