Please, take a vote! Pre-realese an concept map-editor

Ralf · September 26, 2000, 13:23

Computer-generated maps can never be as good as handmade maps. They usually stinks compared to a well-balanced human-edited earth-map, for example.
Why couldnt Firaxis make a pre-release of a primitive concept Civ-3 mapeditor, so that Apolyton Civ-3 visitors could download it, and then edit some really good handmade maps that Firaxis good pick and choose from?

Think about it! If only 20 (or more) of us Civ propellerheads contribute with perhaps 2-3 really nice looking well-ballanced maps, we should end up with 40-60 earth-quality maps.

It would be free unpaid work for Firaxis, and at the same time, it would be fun editing work for us, while we waiting for that elusive Civ-3 release-date.

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited September 26, 2000).]

UltraSonix · September 26, 2000, 19:30

Why should it be free?

But, yeah it's a good idea...

(I thought that Firaxis had hired new graphics artists or something - it's on their page - shouldn't they at least know how to design maps?)

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards... Despite any stupid advertisments you may see to the contrary...

Empress · September 26, 2000, 22:25

Sounds like a win-win situation to me!

Evil Capitalist · September 27, 2000, 03:19

I'd take part- just so I could tell my Grandchildren "I made that map on civ 3"

Shadowstrike · September 27, 2000, 17:48

Hmm.... I'd like to make a map or two. I'd help me hone my mapmaking skills for my scenarios.

And bragging rights of course.

CornMaster · September 27, 2000, 18:27

I'm in!!!!! I love making stuff for Civ 2 and Maps are easy.

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"I'm too out of shape for a long fight so I'll have to kill you fast"
Administrator of the CornEmpire Forum
My Civ 2 Scenario Page.

Deathwalker · September 28, 2000, 05:55

Great idea, but I do not know if they would let it be free.

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I have walked since the dawn of time and were ever I walk, death is sure to follow

Ralf · September 28, 2000, 11:35

Nice response! Keep it on - i keep my fingers crossed for at least 20-25 votes before sending this request to Firaxis.

The problem of formless amoeba-shaped continents sprinkled with random, sometimes incompatible terrain-types is one that is the easiest to remedy. I want Civ-3 continents that actually LOOKS good, with challengeing topographys - not a hopeless ones.

The crappy map- and terrain-generator of CTP was one of the reasons i really disliked that game so much.

The Mad Viking · September 28, 2000, 14:33

dp
[This message has been edited by The Mad Viking (edited September 28, 2000).]

The Mad Viking · September 28, 2000, 14:35

Great Idea! Count me in.

(My 1st visit to CIV3 forum in months)

UltraSonix · September 29, 2000, 01:05

quote:

The problem of formless amoeba-shaped continents sprinkled with random, sometimes incompatible terrain-types is one that is the easiest to remedy.

That's a bit harsh - apprently (could be from the manual, can't remember where I got it from) in SMAC Firaxis worked on the terrain generation so that it was realistic. Like deserts would form to the east(/west?) of mountains 'cause all the clouds would deposit the rain on the other side, which would have lush grasslands. I'm sure Firaxis would work quite hard in this aspect.

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards... Despite any stupid advertisments you may see to the contrary...

Comrade Dan · September 29, 2000, 03:23

but why does the rain always fall in that direction? What about oceans and air currents?

Go for it! Lets see some decent maps done! I would really, really like to see a large world map and a large Europe map done!

Shadowstrike · September 29, 2000, 17:38

Its for simplicity. We were lucky that they implemented any weather model at all....

See what happens when OT posts don't count anymore? Murg was right...

UltraSonix · September 29, 2000, 21:53

Heh, OT does count (now) and I've always posted here no matter what was going on in OT anyway...

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards... Despite any stupid advertisments you may see to the contrary...

Shadowstrike · September 30, 2000, 10:14

Same here. I'm glad that Mrk and Dan took our pleas and restored the OT. Now back to a nice, clean on-topic discussion...

I have another idea. What if they allowed everyone to get the map editor, and then considered each map and put in the best of the player-created maps?

UltraSonix · September 30, 2000, 22:11

quote:

...put in the best of the player-created maps?

Hasn't game publishers traditionally done this not in the first release of a game, but rather, in expansion packs or "gold" packs? For example, wasn't this done in one of the Civ2 expansions ("best of the net" senarios). So I doubt they'll do this suggestion with the intial release of civ3.

*grumbles about work*

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards... Despite any stupid advertisments you may see to the contrary...

Ribannah · October 1, 2000, 05:52

quote:

Originally posted by Ralf on 09-26-2000 01:23 PM
Computer-generated maps can never be as good as handmade maps.

They could be a LOT better than they are now, though. Don't give them a reason to neglect this aspect of the game

We will have those hand-made maps anyway, of course.

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

Ralf · October 1, 2000, 07:12

I dont agree. If very hard, if not almost impossible to translate subjective factors like "good-looks" into expressions, conditions and variables.

A map-generator is 100% non-experiencing. It cant look from above and think - "Hey, these continents are pretty eart-like, altrough differently shaped. And the terrain-distrubution is also rather earth-like". You can hardly ask a AI-programmer to incorporate such subjective humanlike factors into dry programming code.

Theres only one way to do it properly, and that is through edit handmade maps.

Shadowstrike · October 1, 2000, 13:30

*smites UltraSonix for stealing his line*

*tars and feathers Ultra*

I concur. No matter how good we make the map editor, it isn't going to beat a carefully made human crafted map. If we could all contribute some maps, maybe Firaxis will have something in the premade maps section.

Ribannah · October 1, 2000, 17:39

quote:

Originally posted by Ralf on 10-01-2000 07:12 AM
I dont agree. If very hard, if not almost impossible to translate subjective factors like "good-looks" into expressions, conditions and variables.

Actually, it isn't. There is a vast knowledge about what shapes are appealing to the human eye.

quote:

A map-generator is 100% non-experiencing. It cant look from above and think - "Hey, these continents are pretty earth-like, altrough differently shaped. And the terrain-distrubution is also rather earth-like".

If you generate continents, mountain ridges, seas, rivers and terrain like they came to be in the real world, the result will be halfway Earth-like. Certainly much better than in Civ II. There will be enough parameters to experiment with until you like the results.

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

UltraSonix · October 1, 2000, 22:29

Ah, you guys missed my point - it doesn't matter how good hand-crafted maps are ---> game designers just haven't traditionally released user designed-maps(/scenarios) with the first release of a game. Civ2 didn't. So I guess Civ3 won't, either.

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards... Despite any stupid advertisments you may see to the contrary...

Adm.Naismith · October 2, 2000, 06:12

UltraSonix, you are right, but the whole meaning of this thread is: pre-release of the editor will give us the tool.

Usually none fan player can build a map before game is released because none has the tech info about the map, nor the standard graphics to copy from.

I suppose a developer team pressed to release the game for "gold" while ironing as many bugs they can, wouldn't have time to produce a user friendly map editor, without mentioning they may have to change some map attribute to manage some last time function or avoid some bug.

That said, when and if Firaxis will be ready in time, playing with the maps before the game release can be funny. I will like to see not only proper Earth map (or detailed regional map, as Europe), but also a Mars map with ocean added as it could has been, plenty of time ago (think about a S.F. mod where you develop life to Mars, then the planet become inabitable and you must build a fleet of ship to reach the Earth instead of Alpha Centauri

).

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

October 2, 2000, 08:12

oh my god! *can't believe his eyes!*

Why am I seeing such rubbish again!?

Too often I see people trying to come up with ideas to get a peice of the game asap! What? Do you think Firaxis is that stoopid? Crimey...

Adm.Naismith · October 2, 2000, 11:51

Icedan, if it's a joke, I can't get it.

Who in the neck should care if Firaxis release early a tool to build map? I'm sure map making is not the core of CIV 3 game, so there isn't advantage for other companies.

If you can see the map (not the full editor that can let you build full mod, (units, cities, event triggers and the like), what's the problem?

If you are so afraid of secrets, give us at least the rule to draw coloured gif that a (Firaxis internal keeped) converter can use as input to build a proper 3D map (like SMAC, surely better), changing shade of colors into proper tiles draw.

Rubbish? Stupid? Well, may be working for free to help Firaxis making a better game is stupid, if this is the fan reaction!

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

Az · October 2, 2000, 15:01

hmmp ... "looks like earth ".....

that does sound weird .

do you know that that about 1 billion years ago the world was one large continent ? ... talking about "unearth like " maps . ..... in 150 million years a large part of the continents will reunite in the northen hemisphere , including antratica and everything...

I would be glad to see weather , though...

Dalgetti

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We don't prohibit smoking . We discourage inhaling .

Adm.Naismith · October 2, 2000, 17:26

Yes, Pangea is a concept quite know today, I suppose

But I see the problem for random map is not to be equal to actual tectonic distribution, but if the terrain sequence is credible enough: desert right near grassland, high mountain on a shore... not feeling very realistic, I must admit.

BTW, I usually prefer random map instead of pre-defined, because I love to discover the terrain, while a defined map isn't a surprise at all.

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

Ralf · October 2, 2000, 17:49

"BTW, I usually prefer random map instead of pre-defined, because I love to discover the terrain, while a defined map isn't a surprise at all".

Well, thats why we need LOTS of premade maps - preferably about 100+ maps. Once you played the 100:th map, you already forgotten how the topographic looked like in map nr.1

.

We dont lose out anything by promoting this idea. Why some here are so blas´e and negative about it is beyond me. I agree with Empress: "Sounds like a win-win situation to me!".

October 2, 2000, 22:35

The sort of thing you're asking for could ruin their sales.

They're not as stupid as you making them out to be! Or hopefully you just don't understand. (Feel offended now? Feel like you must post against me now?)

They would *PRETTY MUCH* have to FINISH the game, before they could even consider doing something like that!

Sure! I would love to see a screenshot, or get a peice of Civ3 asap in any shape or form. But it's that temptation that is going to ruin it all.

*Prays to God* Let this idea die, the embarrasment is too much!

No I'm not joking!

Ralf · October 3, 2000, 00:49

I dont think we are talking about the same thing. I am not talking about an almost finished beta-release of an Civ-3 map-editor, with fancy interface and terrain-graphic and all that.

I am talking about an 400-500K byte freeware-release from Firaxis with blocky one-coloured squares for each Civ-3 terrain-type (my own quote: "primitive concept Civ-3 mapeditor"). Firaxis could then, then the time is ripe, convert those blocky premature maps to real Civ-3 looking maps.
In terms of interface-design this freeware-release dont have to look ANYTHING at all like the real thing.
In fact, working with the old Civ-2 map-editor would be enough, if Firaxis would go out and say: "We are going to include a conversion-tool from the mapeditor in Civ-2, to the mapeditor in Civ-3".

Now, read above and compare it with your statement below. Cant you see how overreactive and ridicoules your fears are?

"The sort of thing you're asking for could ruin their sales". (Please!).

[This message has been edited by Ralf (edited October 03, 2000).]

October 3, 2000, 04:17

I see, there are still too many problems they would face.

The biggest one being they would have to predict what the interface will be like when its finished. And since I don't think they can, I don't think they will waste their time doing something like this.

Why don't you just draw one up, send it, and maybe they'll get one of their artists to make the map.