What can ANY FUTURE STRATEGY GAME learn from CivIII?

Comrade Tribune · January 13, 2002, 19:22

(Original Title: 'What can MOO3 learn from CivIII?' led to a misunderstanding about the intention of this thread.)

1. Atmosphere matters. Don´t include anything awful (CivIII advisors and leader faces).

2. Game balance is everything. No Race/Unit/Tech/Government should be all powerful/totally useless.

3. More is better. There can´t be something like 'too many' different Units/Buildings/Techs/You name it. The game can still be balanced, if you make the differences incremental instead of extreme. Pleeease take a look at Star Wars Galactic Battlegrounds. Countless everything, brilliantly balanced, wonderful atmosphere. That game has everything CivIII has not.

player1 · January 13, 2002, 19:31

There should be no late game tedium.

ACooper · January 13, 2002, 21:58

I would agree with all 3 points and add 1 more - Don't promise anything specific or else people will take it personally.

Comrade Tribune · January 13, 2002, 22:55

If you don´t keep the promise, that is.

Capt Dizle · January 14, 2002, 00:02

The most important thing that can be learned is this. Don't let your efforts to make a game challenging get in the way of the player's fun.

The words we hear from those who are critical of the game are frustration, tedium, unrealistic and unfair. To paraphase the famous hambuger commercial.. "Where's the fun?"

I applaud many of the changes that Firaxis made in this version of Civ, but somewhere along the way someone should have refocused the design team on the importance of letting the player frolick.

I could list manyof the features or elements that people find so aggravating. But it has been done to death. Firaxis is not going to address them, instead, with the patch they continued to eliminate almost every alternate strategy the player could use (and find fun) to play the game. Right now, it looks like they will remove the pop rush military strategy so that there will be only the one prescribed way to play the game.

This is not fun and its a shame. I hope game developers everywhere will consider Civ3 as an example of how not to design a game.

LaRusso · January 14, 2002, 07:44

it should be modelled completely according to yin's suggestions. he is, of course, always right.....

Immortal Wombat · January 14, 2002, 07:57

From Civ3? People want modding, MP and scenario editors.

Comrade Tribune · January 14, 2002, 20:20

Quote:

Originally posted by LaRusso
it should be modelled completely according to yin's suggestions. he is, of course, always right....

Kassandra may not have been popular, but right she was.

LaRusso · January 15, 2002, 04:12

that was kasandra, right?

Patient English · January 15, 2002, 09:14

Quote:

that was kasandra, right?

Come on LaRusso. You can debate at a higher level than that!

Libertarian · January 15, 2002, 10:21

In the course of the game, retain, amplify, and multiply interesting decisions. Consolidate, ameliorate, and if possible, eschew mundane ones.

ACooper · January 15, 2002, 11:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Libertarian
In the course of the game, retain, amplify, and multiply interesting decisions. Consolidate, ameliorate, and if possible, eschew mundane ones.

Clear as a bell!

Heliodorus · January 15, 2002, 12:43

Don't be afraid to incorporate good ideas that other games innovated first (CTP stacked move and/or PW as examples).

Playtest the game thoroughly, especially in a public beta type atmosphere (the reason Starcraft was so good, IMO).

Never plan the design cycle to end "in time for a pre-Christmas release." Ever. Period.

uh Clem · January 15, 2002, 13:42

The correst answer is: PLAY TESTING!

Have people (preferably LOTS of people) who didn't design the game and who have no connection with the company spend time actually playing the game, noting what works and what doesn't, and reporting what they find.

And then act on those findings.

This would have dealt with at least 90% of the complaints w/CivIII.

Bubba_B · January 15, 2002, 15:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Heliodorus
Never plan the design cycle to end "in time for a pre-Christmas release." Ever. Period.

BINGO!!!

Comrade Tribune · January 15, 2002, 16:55

Quote:

Originally posted by LaRusso
that was kasandra, right?

In German, her name is spelled 'KASSANDRA'. Don´t know about Greek, however. Ask Marcos.

EnochF · January 15, 2002, 17:03

I always thought the addition of Corporations would alleviate late-game tedium, especially in a game like Civ III, where conquering the world is such a chore. Don't bother! Just set up corporations in foreign cities to divert some of their gold. ^_^ It's a way to expand even after the entire world has been covered in cities.

But oh well. Corporations were too "radical" to include, I guess. Instead of adding features, Civ III got rid of stuff.

Anyway, yeah, More Is Better! More techs, more city improvements, more tile improvements, more wonders, more units, more citizen types, more features, more luxuries, and more customizability.

nato · January 15, 2002, 18:43

Quote:

In the course of the game, retain, amplify, and multiply interesting decisions. Consolidate, ameliorate, and if possible, eschew mundane ones.

That is like EXACTLY what I argued in my "Late Game Tedium - Discussion and Solutions" thread!

I'd sue for copyright, but I'm afraid any lawyer I hired would be intimidated by your diction... thats twice in one day you've said exactly what I want to say.

Anyway I really think that is it: maximize fun strategic decisions, minimize boring busywork decisions.

I do really like Heliodorus's Christmas comment though...

GePap · January 15, 2002, 19:12

I thnk the three most important lessons are:

MOdding ability- allow the player to modify some or all rules to fit their wishes. This is different from:

Choices: Give players the ability to choose distinct paths, based on thier preferences. The choices need not be infinite but they need to be substantial

Playtesting: I want MOO3, but I prefer to wait 3 more months than to get a bad title out of the box. For games in general then, wait till you think you have the game balance pretty good, and no obvious bugs, before you release it.