AI cheats and strategies to counter them - Page 3

Hermann the Lombard · January 24, 2002, 13:42

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
The use of "active" to check trade status requires contact, this should not be. We should be able to check on our own trades with out contacting the AI. A busines would look at its own auditors or contracts, not call the other company to get this type of data. Since they info on contact screen does not require any special gathering, it should be available on my trade advisor screen without contact. I want to know if they have any money before I waste time contacting them.

Agreed, we should be able to check on our own trades (and treaties) without having to make contact (and especially without having to trip the "offer" button). I disagree that we should know how much money they have without contact (a spy in place, definitely; an embassy, maybe).

Willem · January 24, 2002, 14:01

Quote:

Originally posted by macaskil
I've never seen this "cheat" - last night I was in a tech lead throughout and every time I researched a new one I hawked it round the other civs in the same turn with no problem.

Maybe it's something to do with "autosave". Although I have this box checked I don't know how to use it... can someone explain?

There's nothing to use really. If the box is checked, the game will automatically save your opening position, than save the game every turn after that as well, up to a certain limit. Just hit Ctrl-L , I believe, and open up the Auto folder and have a look.

ShuShu · January 24, 2002, 18:08

There seems to be a problem with a lot of Civ III users. A segment of the Firaxis user community was not equipped with sufficient emotional routines to cope with a silicon chip becoming more adaptable than they are. Firaxis must dumb down its AI immediately because doing what the humans do is cheating, and is a crime against humanity.

Although I repeatedly tech broker a tech during an AIs turn, it is completely unnacceptable that it can do the same to me. What's worse, Darth Sidious's immediate response to the first post explains how a modicom of common sense on my part would allow me to continue to exploit the AI. That is beyond the pale. I should not have to think! Firaxis, fix this NOW!

Also, what business do you have enabling the AI to protect itself from me by keeping me from building my tanks. I want my oil and I want it now! How am I going to tank rush these AI's if they won't give me their oil so that I can do it?

Aeson · January 24, 2002, 18:45

Quote:

Originally posted by ShuShu
Although I repeatedly tech broker a tech during an AIs turn, it is completely unnacceptable that it can do the same to me.

I didn't know that this was possible, how do you make trades during the AI's turn? I don't complain about when the AI trades on my turn, I just send in the Calvary to administer a reprimand. The AI never learns from its "mistakes" though. The problem with the AI trading on a players turn isn't that it makes the game harder, just that it further enhances the effectiveness of military action in relation to peaceful diplomacy.

The AI definitely should have the right to trade its spare resources to whomever they would like. This shouldn't be considered a bug.

Willem · January 24, 2002, 20:06

Oh moderator, we definitely need some smilies for our posts that clearly show the use of sarcasm.

vmxa1 · January 25, 2002, 05:19

Willem, the reason I said we ought to know the money is if I make contact I can see it, with or without a SPY or Embassy. All I am saying is if it is given by opening the trade, then give it without opening the trade, saves time and clicks. Maybe they wanted to make it harder to keep those who would check each CIV each turn, not sure. Anyway the data is not a secret, such as the troops, that requires a SPY.

Harovan · January 25, 2002, 06:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Aeson
The AI definitely should have the right to trade its spare resources to whomever they would like. This shouldn't be considered a bug.

Right, but it would be really cool to have some kind of World market for resources/luxuries, with prices based on offer and demand. If you offer more than another civilization, you should get the deal, unless there's an embargo against you...

Just dreaming again...

ShuShu · January 25, 2002, 11:14

Quote:

how do you make trades during the AI's turn

Aeson: When the AI decides to extort more money out of me for those blasted furs, or demand my world map, or similar things. I seem to recall trading with others before ending my conversation with the first. But now I am having doubts... Its one thing to be sarcastic, its another to be wrong....

Willem:

Sir Ralph: If the other nationality has extra resources you ARE the highest bidder. And since the AI is not trading with you, you ARE embargoed... Wish granted.

Whoever, way back when: The extra resources you saw in the AI's city were likely from a golden age. Even an AI deserves a Golden Age every now and then.

Willem · January 25, 2002, 11:29

Quote:

Originally posted by ShuShu

Willem:

Well I have to admit, I find it rather amusing when things go flying over people's heads.

Psycho_Mantis · January 26, 2002, 15:09

I figure that the AI can probably see all the strategic resources from the beginning, but doesnt put the ones it doesnt need in priority until the time comes.

Or perhaps it just build EVERYWHERE is possibly can...

Zachriel · January 28, 2002, 08:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Psycho_Mantis
Or perhaps it just build EVERYWHERE is possibly can...

Correct. It's a strategy every human player should consider, as well.

ShuShu · January 28, 2002, 11:02

Quote:

When the AI decides to extort more money out of me for those blasted furs, or demand my world map, or similar things. I seem to recall trading with others before ending my conversation with the first.

It turns out I cannot tech broker during the AI's turn. I have a tendency to do everything with all players on the same turn. So as each contacted me on the same turn I would broker with them.

As a result, I would agree that the AI should not broker during my turn, however, they should be more adept at brokering on theirs...

I stand correctly chastized.

bsklepzig · January 28, 2002, 17:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Zachriel

Correct. It's a strategy every human player should consider, as well.

I don't believe it's as simple as the AI getting lucky with massive settling efforts:
* Playing the huge earth map that shipped with the game, but only 8 total civs, there's a lot of unclaimed land. It's the 1950's now, but the top half of Asia is still sparsely populated. From industrial times, Eqypt had this odd row of three cities at least 10 squares removed from the rest of their empire. When the Aluminum tech (Rocketry, right?) came available to the various civs (myself and Egypt included) ... sonofagun if there wasn't a can of aluminum exactly one square due west of the city square for each city.
* Same game, France was based in North America. They largely ignored Alaska. The cities they did place had oil in the city square or directly adjacent once refining came available (I got refining first ...)
* Large map, pangea. While at war with France, I fought battles over control of one square of rubber. I'd kick them off, they'd kick me off and fortify, etc. until I got a settler up there to build a city I could defend (& quickly sign peace). I was the only one with the rubber tech (I think Replaceable Parts).

Each of these instances had AI cities/defensive efforts that were away from or unique from their other settlements/activities.

Side note:
I haven't known if constantly opening trades to check on what the AI has (tech/$$$/resources) to offer (so I can find the likely highest bidder and work down) bugs them or not. I do it often enough that if it does bug them, I could ramp to annoyed pretty quickly. I've gotten in the habit of making frequent, petty "good will gifts." I usually give terriatory maps or 1 or 2 gold lump sum. I get one of 5 or 6 generic phrases of thanks (i.e. "this will do much to bring our peoples together") and they stay polite. It has been suggested elsewhere (Vel's thread?) that this style of gift-giving can affect their long-term assessment of you as a potential trading partner, affecting many AI behaviors.

Oh, and this is all pre-patch.

Ben

Zachriel · January 28, 2002, 19:45

Quote:

Originally posted by bsklepzig
I don't believe it's as simple as the AI getting lucky with massive settling efforts:

The effect is not noticeable on a crowded map, which is how I usually play.

Just assume you'll always have to play the ever popular, "Capture the Oil Fields" scenario.

pchang · January 28, 2002, 20:45

After 3 pages, we only have 2 confirmed cheats (AI tech trading during your turn and AI knows your unit disposition), and 1 possible cheat (AI knows where resources are before they have the tech). The possible cheat does not appear to be a real one. One would think that the AI would build out its road network so that the "new" resources would automatically be included when they appear, but this is not the case.

Aeson · January 28, 2002, 22:55

In my current game I have been using renegotiating of peace treaties to extort cities from the AI. When negotiating with the Russians, I was consistantly able to get 2-3 cities every 20 turns. All of these cities were size 1, no expanded cultural borders, with no visible resources. During one of the negotiations, I was hoping to get Batum. At the time it was size 1, as was Tutsi. No one had even gotten into the Middle ages yet, but while the Russians were more than willing to part with Tutsi (actually the city that was near Tutsi, I moved and renamed it) "they would never accept such a deal" was their response for Batum in the same exchange. Considering the visible value of the two cities, Tutsi was by far the better city site, as you can see from the picture. Tutsi is even built on another cow, which you cannot see. Now I have just researched Gunpowder, as you can see Batum is right next to a source of Saltpeter. There are a few other cities that weren't possible to demand from the AI. I bet that later on they end up having an "unseen" resource too. At least Batum was built in the right spot for my pattern... I was going to hit the Russians once I got to Military Tradition anyways.

Psycho_Mantis · January 28, 2002, 23:19

What do you mean the AI knows your unit disposition?

Marquis de Sodaq · January 29, 2002, 11:03

Aeson, this proves what I'd suspected from the start, that the AI knows the terrain before it sees it. A similar anecdote: I've started my third game on the Marla map - tho I know world geography, I did not seek out the resources before playing. After map exchanges and middle ages, I noticed that the exact same tile in NW Canada was settled. Twice by the americans, once by the Iroquois. This is far from an appealing site at first glance, and far from where they had settled up to that point. I pop open the editor, look at the map, et voila! Uranium and coal next to it. (or was it aluminum?)

In one of the games, I was the Aztecs. I exiled the americans to the tundra.

In peace negotiations, they were willing to part with everything - gold and all towns - except that one town with the as-yet-unseen resources.

Psycho_Mantis · January 29, 2002, 12:08

Yeah, it does look like the computer cheats...

I still dont know what you mean about it knowing your unit disposition, though.

bsklepzig · January 29, 2002, 12:16

Quote:

Originally posted by pchang
... and 1 possible cheat (AI knows where resources are before they have the tech). The possible cheat does not appear to be a real one. One would think that the AI would build out its road network so that the "new" resources would automatically be included when they appear, but this is not the case.

pchang,

My stories, Aeson's story and picture and Marquis' story shows that this is in fact a cheat. They see the resource before the tech allows it and they settle cities to gain access down the road. Trading behavior (Aeson & Maquis) and battle behavior (my story) are affected by their knowledge of the the someday value of the site. Your assumption that they don't build roads doesn't show this isn't a cheat. From the AI perspective, why build the road before it's needed? (In my Egypt example with with the three eventual aluminum cities 10 tiles into the wilderness, they had in fact built roads anyway.)

Ben

Harovan · January 29, 2002, 12:54

Yes, this was also mentioned in the thread http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40548 (post by TheDarkside 24-01-2002 15:42 GMT) and in my and some other replies later on. Note, that in TheDarkside's even the road to the iron was built.

barefootbadass · January 29, 2002, 13:44

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
The use of "active" to check trade status requires contact, this should not be. We should be able to check on our own trades with out contacting the AI. A busines would look at its own auditors or contracts, not call the other company to get this type of data. Since they info on contact screen does not require any special gathering, it should be available on my trade advisor screen without contact. I want to know if they have any money before I waste time contacting them.

That would be good, maybe in the trade screen where it shows you are trading for 'fine chinese furs' or something, it could show how many turns the deal has left. In fact I'm not sure that this feature isn't in the trade screen, I'll check tonight, its one of those things like the military screen to find out the government type of a civ that isn't exactly documented that you had to stumble on or read about in the forums.

I've always been able to renegotiate if the ai contacts me saying they don't want to continue the deal. If they trade it to someone else(after it has expired) it just tells me that I've lost my supply with no contact. If you are contacted when this happens and it has been traded then it is probably a bug.

soxs · January 31, 2002, 17:17

From the few games I have played on a Extremly Large Map with big islands and with 8 civs, the 6 of the 8 civs get there own island and the 7th gets stuck with me on my small island. Any one else noticed that or did I just get unlucky a few times?

bsklepzig · January 31, 2002, 17:22

I'd count that as a good thing ...

You get to trade techs before Mapmaking allows Galleys and have a handy local civ for an ancient era war (trains elites and eliminates a competitor early).

I'd rather have a local buddy for the reasons described above than be alone and get messages about other civs building Wonders I don't have the Tech for yet ...

Ben

Unregistered · January 31, 2002, 19:27

Well, Soren did say in one of the chats that the ai can 'see' the whole map, including your troop dispositions. I would assume this also includes strategic resources, although he didn't mention them specifically. He went on to say that if they can't 'see' the map, then all they do is sit where they are. So giving them this 'cheat' was necessary to make them competitive with not only the human player, but themselves. Given all the natural advantages we as people have, I don't have a problem with it as a 'cheat'.

As one poster on another thread put it (sorry, I've forgotten who) "Playing the ai is like beating up on the retarded!" And you know what? He's absolutely right. Which is why I'll probably be putting civIII down soon & moving on to something else. Maybe I'll try again when a pbem option becomes available. (I don't know that I'd like realtime multiplayer, turns take too long & schedualing time w/ people to play is almost impossible for me)
Anyway,

Willem · January 31, 2002, 20:33

Well I have to question this idea that the AI can see resources and builds near them. I just had a game that in one area, there was 3 resources within a couple of squares of each other, close enough that 1 city could have grabbed all 3, and the Japanese hadn't built anything there yet, though they were nearby. I also had another game where there were a number of Saltpeter resources, but I managed to beat him to it. It didn't look like he was even trying to get to those spots.

Zachriel · January 31, 2002, 21:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Willem
Well I have to question this idea that the AI can see resources and builds near them.

I agree.

The Greeks populated all around this iron. It took a few turns, but I walked a settler over and took it.

Aeson · February 1, 2002, 00:32

I dont think the AI actively settles 'unseen' resources, just that they know they are there. When the AI calculates the value of the city site, the resources seem to be factored into that worth, whether the AI has the technology to see them or not. This fact actually works for the player once it is understood. I can now wage effective wars for unseen resources, just by playing off the AI's valuation of any given city. I may not be able to tell whether it is rubber or coal or any other specific resource, but I know something of value is hidden there. I just have to use the AI as my 'eyes'.

solo · February 1, 2002, 12:13

One question for Willem and Zachriel:

Did the AI have the technology yet for those resources it did not go for? In my experience so far, they have zeroed in on resources, but now that I think about it, they might have had the technology to "see" them at the time of zeroing activity.

Aeson's experience suggests they know where unseen resources are, too, but it may just be a coincidence due to the fact that smaller CivIII maps result in all areas being setlled fairly quickly into the game. However Aeson IS having a lot of success by using the theory that the AI do know in advance where resources are.

Another factor to consider is the scarcity of a resource. The AI may not bother about an unseen one or bunch, if they already have their own copy from another tile in their possession.

One thing for sure, is that more evidence needs to be collected while playing games, before forming any conclusions.

Zachriel · February 1, 2002, 13:01

Quote:

Originally posted by solo
One question for Willem and Zachriel:

Did the AI have the technology yet for those resources it did not go for?

Well from a look at my picture posted above, I see a Greek Phalanx near the bottom. They must have had Iron, so my example may not be very helpful. They may have devalued the iron as they already had a source.

Good points, solo.