Stepping up to the plate....

[xRamsesx]

I have to a admit that some of your comments have been like a cup of cold water thrown in my face. What can I say, I got excited about the whole idea

Some of you misunderstood me though, when I mentioned the infamous glowing units, it was just a simple example of how we could exceed civ 3's graphics (potentialy).

But I agree with most of your comments in that we should start simple. I guess lets leave this whole language discussion till we have a better idea of who's who, and what skills each one has.

Maybe a good starting point would be a forum dedicated to CandleBre where we could iron out our ideas? There's plenty of sites out there that'll do it for free and I'd be more than happy to set one up if you guys agree on it.

Lib, how do I get in touch with you to send you my contact info?

[Libertarian]

Private Message me. (The envelope icon with two guys shaking hands.)

[Velociryx]

Got you covered, Ramses! I started two threads over in the "Other Games" section of 'poly.....One containing the "core rules" (boardgame version) and another for comments and discussion. If there's a need for more threads tho (and there may well be) I'll open up a Candle'Bre topic in the forums on the Renaissance Portal (much the same way we're doing for the Civ3 Mod work) and we can make a gazillion threads for each segment, without cluttering 'poly up with our design work and stuff!

Check my site and the forums out at:

The Renaissance Portal (click on the discussion forums link) and let me know if you want me to start a Candle'Bre section there. If you think we can confine it all to the "Comment" thread in Other Games, we can hold off on it, but it'll only take a bit to get it started, so just lemme know what's needed....

-=Vel=-

[Harovan]

Originally posted by tjwojo
The way it is going, this project is already doomed.

Sounds hard but true

Lib: Gimme some time to think if I wish to participate under these circumstances. Anyway, in the next few days (probably weeks) neither of us can do anything than guessing, arguing and make useless and unsupported rides ahead. I already got a full time job as programmer and am unsure if I want a second one. And certainly I'm not seeking an opportunity to fill my scarce spare time with arguing (No offense to you ).

By the way, your accounting project is indeed a good example for using VB. No excessive computations except some plus and minus (no offense), a vast part is UI and I/O and portability does not matter. Anything else than VB would really be a waste of time and work force. Although I still believe, for an AI there is notting more efficient than C++ (or even Assembler).

[xRamsesx]

Sounds like a good start to me Vel

[Chowlett]

Thanks Vel, I think I got it. The attack numbers are used if you are attacking the province, defense if you are defending, they don't represent different phases of the combat, right?

So,
1) Attacker uses first strike (roll a d20, <=attack value kills)
2) Defender uses first strike (roll a d20, <=attack value kills)
3) Attacker opts to prepare charge/flank, or uses charge/flang prepared last turn (roll a d20, <2*attack kills, =2*attack captures)
4) Defender opts to prepare charge/flank, or uses charge/flang prepared last turn (roll a d20, <2*defense kills, =2*defense captures)
5) Attacker uses standard troops (roll a d20, 6) Defender uses standard troops (roll a d20,
Rinse and repeat until one side is dead or withdrawn. At any phase, a precision strike may be used, in which case the appropriate attack/defense value is halved, but and losses may be chosen by the attacker for that round (ie, not necessarily the attacker of the province)

And from the looks of your earlier order of attacks, I have to order all 5 of my archers before any of them fire? So I can't try to precision attack the cav with one archer, and if I succeed back out with the other four to standard attacks? In which case, what happens if a precision strike kills more units than there are of the units specified to kill?

Just trying to get a handle on it, it sounds good. If you're programming in VB, then I can do more basic stuff than I could in C++, but I'm still no good on the top-notch stuff - eg, I don't even really know what threads are, let alone appartment threads! I have access to VB 6, and VB.net (beta) if needed.

[Velociryx]

....why the project is NOT doomed!

Not to worry guys....this is only our second day, and look where we are!

Already, there's a sketched out game engine in place. Already we're starting to compile lists of who's willing to help out and how.

We're not doomed...we haven't even hoisted the anchor yet!

The way I look at it is this:

The basic system is spelled out. Sure, it's not perfect yet...but the imperfections in the system are tweaks of existing numbers (changing costs of things, minor changes to a/d values....stuff we can do on the fly pretty easily as testing is done). The core system though, is developed.

Lib is currently marshalling our resources, and I am awaiting feedback on the overall design.

Everybody else who's itching to participate is....being creative! Sketching out early concepts in code, tossing out GREAT ideas that, while they may not be able to be implemented immediately, are nonetheless of value....stuff to table for later releases.

To me....things look like they're going rather well! Creativity is at its best when it's all seething chaos. It's true that logic and discipline are desirable (and in fact NEEDED) if we're gonna make this project fly, but there won't BE a project without a healthy dose of creativity! Thus, there won't be a project without chaos. We need it. Just understand that it's not a sign that we're about to crumble to pieces before we even begin!

In under three business days, we've got volunteers with a wide range of skills and a workable design.

I don't think the folks at Firaxis were moving that fast with any of their most recent projects, so as far as I'm concerned, we're doing great!

-=Vel=-

[Chowlett]

Oh yeah - and I thought you could maybe make of the spades cards "Plague" - we are talking middle ages here after all. It would kill some percentage of your army, I would suggest two units per territory pending testing. Perhaps to even things out a bit, territories bordering yours would lose one unit to show spread of the disease.

You could maybe even say, 1 unit (total) is spared for each academy, university, maybe cathedrals - indicating cures and/or healing.

And I believe that makes me the non-existant rank of King+Prince.

[Harovan]

EDIT: Heck, how could it happen, I posted this crap a second time?

[xRamsesx]

I happen to agree with Vel on this. Though arguing is unpleasant at times, its the only way to incorporate the best ideas in a game (so long as its not overdone of course).

[Velociryx]

Chowlett: You nailed it! That's precisely the way the combat engine works!

Tier one attackers always use their attack values (whether they are the ones doing the attacking or on the receiving end OF an attack).

Tier two attackers (cavalry is the only tier two attacker at this point) may or may not be attacking in any given round, and if they do, they do so with *devastating* effect (attacking charging cav get their attack values doubled, defending counter-charging cav get their defense values doubled)

Tier three attackers use their standard attack values, while tier three defenders use their defensive values.

any unit killed by any tier higher than the one they reside on dies without getting to shoot back (no dice roll).

Precision attacks are declared on a "per tier" basis, rather than a "per unit" basis (so you're right in that you could not announce a precision strike for one of your individual archers, roll that die to see the result, and then move onto the next....it's one way or the other for the entire combat tier).

To answer your other question about precison strikes, lemme set up another mock battle.

Attacking Force: 8 Archers and 3 Infantry

Defending force: 4 Cavalry, 6 Infantry, and one wayward siege engine

The Defending player REALLY needs his Cav to hit if he's gonna have any prayer of winning this thing....

Round one:
Tier One combat: The attacker announces that his archers will make a precision strike against the Cavalry: They attack at 7, all roll, and five score hits. Since it is a precision strike, only half of the hits "count" so two cav are taken as casualties (the "half hit" is simply ignored).

Tier Two Combat: None - The surviving cav are still setting up for their charge.

Tier three combat: The attacker rolls with his infantry, and none of them hit.

The defender declares that his infantry are issuing a presicion strike vs. the Archers. They all roll, and three hits are scored. Only one of the hits is counted, however (again, the "half hit" is ignored), so one archer dies.

Round Two:
Tier One: The seven archers once more announce a precision strike against the cav, and amazingly, all of them hit. This results in three cav deaths, but there are only two cav units remaining, so both die, and the last point of damage is assigned to some other group (at the attacking player's discretion, since the damage came about as the result of a precision strike). In this case, let's say he's relatively insane, and opts to take out the siege engine rather than an enemy infantry--kinna wierd since the siege engine can't hurt him, but :: shrug:: you never know! LOL).

Tier two combat: None. All the cav were destroyed before they could charge.

Tier three combat. The attacker's infantry take 1 of the defender's infantry out, and the defenders roll vs. their defense values (standard attack this time), and hit three more times, killing all the attacker's infantry.

So at the end of round two, the attacker has 7 Archers to the Defender's 5 Infantry. The attacker elects to remain in the battle.

Round three:
Tier One: Archers fire, scoring 2 hits.

No Tier Two Combat

Tier Three: Three remaining infantry fire, scoring one hit.

6 Archers vs. 3 Infantry.

Round four:
Archers fire, two more hits scored.

The last remaining infantry misses

Round five:
Archers take the province.

How's that?


-=Vel=-
(who just ran that very battle at the tabletop...lol)

[Velociryx]

Yes! I love the plague idea for some of the spades cards! Minor outbreak (say the 3 or four of spades) affects only a single province, and another plague event higher up which affects a target province and all adjacent to it...OUCH! That could really be evil...especially if you gave it a duration (d6 turns), with survival checks made for any and all units passing through the territories impacted....I like it!!!

-=Vel=-

EDIT: One of the things that most probably WILL change as the design gets further along is to vary the a/d numbers a bit. I made them all the same across the board for starters just to see what sorts of strats came about and how the system as a whole worked (the notable exception being pikes). So for the moment, there's very little difference whether you're the attacker or the defender....that was on purpose to give us a place to start, with an eye toward tweaking the numbers later on....

[Chowlett]

Sweet, I've got it down pat. That post of yours inadvertantly corrected me on one other point - that precision strikes aren't half as likely to succeed - they have the same chance to succeed but with only half as many hits.

I think I might sketch out 60 provinces sometime soon, and print it to an A2 sized bit of paper.

[Velociryx]

Very cool! And if ya do, lemme know how it goes for you! I got my poster board here, but have not as yet felt quite good enough to tackle the design.

Oh! And I just thought of a more concise way of wording the whole "who gets to pick what dies" thing!

Precision Strike: The person doing the killing gets to pick.

Standard Attack: The person who's forces die gets to pick.

Hmmm....mathematically, I'm thinking that either way of calculating hits for the precision strike would work out the same....but then, math is, admittedly not my strong suit. One interesting note tho, is that Cav executing a precision strike would be absolutely crushing....still, they can only attack every other round, so you'd need superiority to pull that off....AND they're pretty expensive to boot. Testing needed to see if it's unbalanced, and if so, we can always just make an additional rule that charging cav can't do precision work....which sorta makes sense anyway. For the moment, we'll leave it as is, and if it proves unbalancing, we can change it later!

The province valuation trick: That was something I picked up when I was designing my first boardgame....it's not perfect, but it DOES give you a good, quick way to fairly determine base values for territories, and can be tweaked from there to suit (I wrote up a quick and dirty way to add variance in the rules). So....lemme know how it goes for you!

Building costs: Since there's only a pretty limited tech tree, I intentionally made some of the later upgrades kinna cheap, cos they won't have as much "shelf life" but in later iterations if/when we expand the tech aspect of it, we can always tweak the costing numbers later.

-=Vel=-

[Libertarian]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph Lib: Gimme some time to think if I wish to participate under these circumstances. Anyway, in the next few days (probably weeks) neither of us can do anything than guessing, arguing and make useless and unsupported rides ahead. I already got a full time job as programmer and am unsure if I want a second one. And certainly I'm not seeking an opportunity to fill my scarce spare time with arguing (No offense to you ).

No pressure, Sir Ralph. Even a lurker who's never posted has volunteered! As a libertarian, I certainly believe that you should be free to pursue your own happiness in your own way, so long as you leave all others free to do the same.

By the way, your accounting project is indeed a good example for using VB. No excessive computations except some plus and minus (no offense), a vast part is UI and I/O and portability does not matter. Anything else than VB would really be a waste of time and work force. Although I still believe, for an AI there is notting more efficient than C++ (or even Assembler).

I see that you've never calculated net pay, nor constructed sales projection charts driven by what-if queries.

What is best for an AI depends entirely on how an AI is designed. And that ain't happened yet, so we don't know.

[Plutarck]

Ok, on the topic of Java. I use to say alot about how bad Java was...ah, the ignorance of youth ( ). I'm just gonna get to this, and point out the flaws in reasoning with the "java is too slow" arguments as a whole.


First of all, there are 3 kinds of programming: Good, Great, and Everything Else. None can be compared by it's relation to either of the others, as the skill involved increases in a vast order of magnitude.

I guarantee that Everything Else version of Pong written in Assembler can run like an enterprise IDE (that means "very slow"). Now consider the Quake 3 Engine. To judge the quality of a language based upon the way a newbie uses it is as rediculous as judging a paintbrush by the same measure; what I can use to create a blob on a piece of paper, DiVinci could use to decorate the Sistine Chapel.


Next, no graphically intensive game does the graphics on it's own. You use an engine, specially designed for the purpose.

To compare Swing graphics (or even Java3D graphics) to DirectX/GL, which is what is being done, is utterly rediculous. The reason Java is not quick with graphics is because the methods used to do such graphics work are not optimised, and are very young (Java3D being out less than 2 years in a non-alpha version, I believe, and it wasn't designed for games)

However, new methods are being developed in Java which utilizes DirectX/OpenGL with little loss in efficiency. JITs continue to improve greatly, and you can easily include one along with your application if you really must be sure one is available. So it'll be run through a JIT if nothing else; programs which demand maximum performance can even utilize ATCs (ahead of time compilers), utilitys are quickly being developed that can compile Java into code which can be run completely natively (some already are in a sellable state), and pure Java itself continues to improve in speed.

If you truly believe no game company uses Java, you are seriously mistaken. You Don't Know Jack just so happens to have been written in Java, there are playstation games which use Java for scripting, and I believe John Carmack said that if he had it to do over again, he'd have used Java for scripting in Quake 3 (I think it was quake 3...one of those types of game).

Another developer on a quake-style game said he wished he had WRITTEN the game in Java, and just used a hand-optimised version of the quake engine.

And consider these 2 articles as further proof: http://java.sun.com/features/2001/05/javagame.html and http://java.sun.com/features/1998/08/games.html

And for some really great (and amazingly speedy) browser-based java games, visit http://www.friendlygiants.com/ (down at the moment on my machine, but might just be me.


So you see, the slowness of Java in graphics is now almost entirely because there are no advanced Java graphics engines (compared to DirectX 8 and others, which have undergone tens of millions of dollars in develpment and research and have been constantly developed for...what, 5+ years?). This is precisely why you add a layer of abstraction and never directly make calls to some "outside" piece of code, such as an engine. Basic programming I learned from writing a database program in PHP.

The result is that if a new great graphics engine comes out (or just a new version of your current graphics engine), you avoid having to rewrite your entire program because you hard-coded everything.

Of course it's always best to stick with one engine, so don't abuse the priviledge.


But using the technology of today, Java2D can almost undoubtably handle post-Civ2 quality graphics with ease (it's latest iterations are SO much faster than their ancestors). Civ3 quality...depends on how good the programmer is in this area.

As for AI, there are too many developments to even go into here. But Java can handle AI very well...it just depends on how you design the AI.

You can make super-slow AI which does a rediculous amount of calculations, or you can truly make a brilliantly designed AI which seems incredible yet doesn't really "do" all that much.

It's the programmer, not the programming language, which will determine the limits of the application in these cases.


With a good programmer who's good at Java, it will work fine. The same goes for Basic, VB, any form of C, etc.

It's the programmer, not the programming language.

[Velociryx]

That latest post was music to these ears!

Updates all 'round, too!

The basic game engine is all set! Put the final coat of spit and polish on it, fleshed out the "event engine" (but more events are always appreciated! If they don't make it in now, they'll prolly turn up later!). Game start has been fleshed out so you can jump right in when playing, and the units have all been tweaked so that each performs a more unique role than the plain vanilla way I started off with.

Soooo.....I proudly present the Alpha Edition of the boardgame rules....let's see what can be done with them!

(The updated rules are posted over in the "Other Games" Section of 'poly!)

-=Vel=-

[Chowlett]

I'm currently designing myself a board, pretty randomly, in Adobe PhotoDeluxe. One issue has come up which need clarification.

If provinces connect only "at a point", do they add to each other's value: for example, in the below miniature kingdom, does province 1 have value 4 (from provinces nos. 2,3,4,5) or value 3 (from provinces numbers 2,4,5 but not 3)?

[Velociryx]

Hmm....good question, Brother Chowlett! And in the case of "pointy-boundaries" between provinces, I would say that the answer would be three. In the spirit of that particular valuation system, the valuing is guesstimated based on supposed commerce that would occur between bordering states. In the map shown in your post, there's not really enough room for more than a winding little ribbon of a road, and so I'd be inclined to say that no significant amount of commerce would be traded between the two (as opposed to say, provinces 1 and 2, who share a quite longish border.

One thing though....you may wanna do away with the pointy border problem altogether, because then it sets up the question that if the provinces meeting at a point do not contribute to each other's economic valuation, is there enough of a "road" to constitute large scale troop movements?

One of the things I did when designing my map for Holy War was just "scoot a line over" a bit to get rid of the pointy border problem.

I think though, that consistency should be the key. If you devise a map with several of those types of borders, and if you determine that they do NOT contribute to each other's economic value, then troop movement from one to the other should also not be allowed....

How's that?

-=Vel=-

Edit: Specifically in the case of your map above, I would increase the size of territory 5 slightly, at the expense of territory three, and in the vicinity of the pointy border.....in that way, territory five would be a clear buffer state between the two, and absolutely the most crucial of the territories on the map, in terms of control.

-V.

[Harovan]

Plutarck: Very good posting. You almost convinced me, that Java is really a good choice. And I have no doubt, there will gather together a lot of younger Java programmers, that write "Great" code for a well-designed AI.

As for my participation, well, I have many years experience in C/C++, but am a poorly skilled Java programmer. I know, the languages are quite close, but alas, I lack the feeling needed for "Great" code in Java. Probably I would produce only "Everything Else", certainly not what the project needs. And with family and job being my primary duties, I think I could not spend the time to improve my Java skills and to contribute something useful. That's the point to realize, that I'm out.

I wish the project good luck and will look every now and then for your progress.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Libertarian
I personally managed the development of a full-blown accounting package, including payroll, accounts payable and receivable, and general ledger, written entirely with VB4 that sold for $15,000 per unit install and is used by two of the largest fast-food franchises in the southeastern US.

It has been reliable, dependable, and the clients love it because it's easy for them to use. VB bashing is soooooo last week.

Lib, this sounds like the programming language I could make use of in my 'Sim'. (Which is, apart from main map, very much about number crunching.) Could you give it a look at the 'Disenchanted' thread, and tell me if VB is for me?

[Plutarck]

And one more note:

There is something called the "Java Native Interface" (JNI), which allows access to C/C++ (and other languages, if/when such things are available) from Java. There is also a JAWT interface, which allows C/C++ to access parts of Java's AWT package (Abstract Windows Toolkit), and Java3D utilizes both (anything which isn't pure Java is called "heavyweight", while anything in pure Java is considered "lightweight").

Java3D is actually being built "over-top" of DirectX and OpenGL (a version is available for each), and is built on top of (and based on) VRML; which leaves me scratching my head as to what's up with all the branches and nodes...but hey, 3D is complicated stuff.


Which is actually how many speed-intensive Java programs work. The rendering and graphics code is written in C/C++, the rest of the program is written in Java and links to the work in C/C++, and thus the best of both words is attained.

In most cases Java does a lot better calling C than C does calling Java (since it would end up having to wait for a VM to load up...more trouble than it would probably be worth).


And on "Great" code...I rarely see it, and it's beyond reasonability to expect it. It's the result of a lot of refined skill, great effort, and an intimate understanding of all factors involved. And sometimes it's kind of an accident.

"Good" code is what get's things done.

But going from no knowledge of Java to programming in Java...one can be productive, but you have to be able to "think" in the language your using to do any of the tricky stuff. Otherwise all kinds of silly things can happen, like attempting to use Java as a procedural language (far worse than trying to use a procedural language as if it was object oriented).

Just like I'm sure it was with C/C++, it takes time and effort. And just as in all things, you gotta ask yourself, "Is this how I had best spend my time?"

There are only so many hours in a day, and only so many days in a life. Invest your life-currency wisely



EDIT: BTW, for visual interface design there is an extremely resource intensive program called Forte4Java, available for free from Sun. I use it, and it's quiet excellant, but if you don't have 512MB of RAM it'll run like a slug, if it runs at all.

It's an Integrated Development Environment (IDE), and you can "draw" a Swing/AWT form in a VB-like fashion.

I personally liked VB and it was my first experience in computer programming (not counting HTML). Never did get "Master Visual Basic" to more fully learn the language or do more than the basic stuff in "Learn Microsoft Visual Basic 6.0 Now" (such as a little slot machine, timer, clock, an attempt at a little game I made but didn't know enough code/math, etc).

I certainly have nothing bad to say about the language, and it's main focus is RAD (Rapid Application Development) and as low as a learning curve as is possible with a fully featured programming environment/language.

But personally, I prefer the PHP/Java/C style of programming language, rather than the VB/Delphi style. It's completely personal preference, and plenty of people love the latter and hate the former.

[Velociryx]

'k...I've been getting a good number of e-mails and pm's about how this thing is gonna work, and rather than answer them one at a time (which normally I wouldn't mind, but under the influence of nyquil, my fingers aren't cooperating so well, and I'm a long way from my usual pace of 90-100 words per minute).

So....my vision of the thing goes something like this (and this, or something very like it will serve as our company's "Mission Statement" when we get to that point in the unfolding story).

***
Vel's take on forming the company someday to be known as Velocigames....or something.

This is all kinna bassackwards from the way the big guys do it, and you know what? The big guys make a lot of really crappy games. What did B. Reynolds say? 10% of the gaming titles make 90% of the money? Which means that 90% of the titles are either junk or badly marketed.

So maybe it's time for a new paradigm to shake things up a bit. That doesn't sound like any game I want to play, so here's how WE'RE going to do it, and here's what's going to make us different. Special. Unique. And maybe even cool....

OoO

The Grand Plan, sorta-mission statement for the company that does not quite yet exist


First, we create.

We prove that we CAN do this. That we're not just a bunch of nobodys who are going to go away.

We create a fairly basic, oddly addictive, vastly replayable game with customizable everything, and we give it away.

Yep. We give it away.

Yeah...I know....that's lunacy according to every major player in the industry....and who the heck are we to think we can come up with a better idea than their vaunted 10/90 approach? Pah! ::as Vel rolls his eyes elaborately (eyes which are, by the way, nearly floating in Nyquil) ::

So I say again. We give it away.

As in Free.

We pour hundreds of hours of our souls into a project and make it the best we can possibly make it within our own self imposed limits of simplicity, and we shoot it out the door....for nothing.

Ahhhh....but wait a second. See, cos it's NOT for nothing after all....it's just not for cash, and that's where the Industry giants have it wrong. They're so used to chasing that dollar that if someone snuck up behind them and tied a buck to their A$$ES they'd spend all day long chasing their tails just like my cat!

Let them.

We'll give our game away, and do you know what we'll get in exchange for it?

A fan base. A following. People who love the game, and who love hanging out on forums talking about it. Giving us ideas for improvements. Talking about things they'd like to see in the next version.

And we....are you ready for this? I'm gonna drop some major VooDoo on you here so brace yourself, 'k?....what we do is....LISTEN TO THEM!

What's more....if nobody is saying anything at a given moment, we don't just assume everything's okay and that nobody has any solid ideas for how we could improve things....we...ready again? Here comes some more VooDoo....go out and ASK QUESTIONS! That's right...cos the simple truth is, we don't have all the answers. We don't know what our players and fan base wants unless we listen and ask.

And then you know what we do? And this is the really cool part....once we listen and ask, then we.....DELIVER THE GOODS!

Yep. We find out what works and what doesn't from the people who spend the most time playing and thinking about the game.

We ask them how it could be better. More elaborate. More immersive. Cooler.

And once we know....we go out and get it done.

Now mind you, there may be things that sound good but are impossible to implement, or things that might work better with some other game, and that's cool too. If that's the case....and this is the biggest, baddest VooDoo of them all....we...TELL THEM SO! More importantly, if we don't think an idea is good for the game or practical, we TELL THEM WHY.

Maybe they'll change our minds on it.

Maybe we'll change theirs.

Hell...maybe neither, but then, that's not really the point. The point is, we're talking to our fans, and they're talking to us. We're NOT a "big corporation" who hides behind a gazillion lawyers and threatens to sue God and everybody who thinks too hard about their game. We're people, just like them. We have hopes and dreams and desires and wishes. Goals.

And, we make good games.

I mean, we make really good, kicka$$ games (yes, I fully intend to use the word "kicka$$" in the company mission statement....just so you know!)

So...after giving our hard work away and listening and asking questions, and then working some more....wanna know what happens then?

Then we formally organize the company. Call it Velocigames, or Infogrames Wishes They Could Publish Our Stuff....or something.

We go out and get some venture capital so people can actually start getting PAID, and that part's easier too now, cos we have a proven track record. We have a popular product and a plan for improving it.

And that's exactly what we do.

First one's on us, just so you know we're not fooling around. Then, we'll ask you to feed the starving artists.

How's that sound?



-=Vel=-
(Leader of the Rebel Alliance)

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Plutarck
EDIT: BTW, for visual interface design there is an extremely resource intensive program called Forte4Java, available for free from Sun. I use it, and it's quiet excellant, but if you don't have 512MB of RAM it'll run like a slug, if it runs at all.

I would not wonder if it's coded in Java. Probably it is.

[xRamsesx]

Vel, I like your thoughts on the general plan for the project. I think that once a final product is ready, if its good enough you can build a fan-base and move on as you outlined.

The only thing is, I doubt its going to be all that easy getting to that point (as almost everyone else has pointed out). Firstly I'm guessing that everyone that participates will have some sort of equity on the game, right? Well I've been lurking around some of the other alternate civ boards and one of the things all of them were complaining about on their boards is people joining the team, helping for a year, a month, a week, however long it is, then leaving. Well how do you plan on dealing with cases like that? Do those people get a share of the "potential pie" for their help?

The second point is, this plan relies on one crucial element. That the game will get wide-spread acceptance. If a good product is produced (as everyone here is planning on) I think there won't be any trouble in convincing people to play it. The problem lies in getting the people to know that it actually exists.

Those aren't real problems though, i just think that they're just points that need to be taken into consideration and planned before the start of the project. For the first point its just a simple matter of deciding the guidelines on how people join the team, and who is considered a true contributor. For the second point, I think that coming out with a gameplan on how to spread awareness for the game while its still in production (probably towards the later stages) will make all the difference.

I just realized that it might sound like I'm bringing the whole idea down, but on the contrary, I really like it and truly believe it could work! I'm just trying to contribute to the discussion that will produce the end gameplan.

[Chowlett]

Ok Vel, that seems a good idea. I'll adjust my Random Map of Candle'Bre^TM acordingly.

Now I just need something that will let me print an A2 picture on multiple A4 sheets. Anyone know of anything?

[Libertarian]

I would not wonder if it's coded in Java. Probably it is.

I thought you were over that. The way you bash all these languages is eerily reminiscent of people who lash out at things they fear or don't understand.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Libertarian
I thought you were over that. The way you bash all these languages is eerily reminiscent of people who lash out at things they fear or don't understand.

And I thought you had for 2 cents humor. The way you react to my late night joke shows, that there might be a gramm of truth in it.

Why should I fear things like Java? If I need it someday and it will be still alive, I will learn it in a few weeks. Just like I learned Basic, Forth, Fortran, Cobol and some Assembler languages in the 80's, and C, C++ and a few script languages in the 90's.

EDIT: And by the way, why do you consider it bashing. If you read my post before, you see that he convinced me, that Java is really a good choice and that I regret not to be able to contribute. Is that bashing?

[Libertarian]

Sorry, but Homey don't play dat game.

[moomin]

Originally posted by Libertarian
I see that you've never calculated net pay, nor constructed sales projection charts driven by what-if queries.

Lib, you did the crunching part in VB? Back when I was an active programmer we used to do a lot of frontend stuff in VB - it's rivaled only by Delphi for these kinds of things - but kept the business logic in the DB or in third-tier middleware, which was almost alwas written in C++. That was a couple of years ago, so VB might have improved since. Still, I'm a bit sceptical. VB was a typical glue integration language and those tend not to be good choises for heavy duty crunching.

But then neither is PL/SQL and half the worlds corporate management software is written in that, so you never know.