Re-Enchantment....

Velociryx · January 18, 2002, 22:48

Two things. First, I wanted to publically congratulate Sev, Cat, DarkAngel, and everyone who came to the Renaissance Portal to help us hammer out the alpha version of the mod with no name.

And I wanted to do it here cos this is where the bulk of the civ players dwell.

Having played the mod even its early stages, I can tell you that it rocks! It, when combined with future patches, and stuff that we've already got in the works for future iterations of the mod, has restored much of the magic to the game for me....that's really, really, insanely cool! GREAT work guys!!!

And second....as a lot of you may know, I recently took you up on your challenge.

Some of you said it'd be cool if I was on the Dev team for civ4. Well, most likely, that won't happen BUT, that didn't stop me from stepping up to the plate.

We're gonna make a game together.

What's more, I'm gonna (eventually...and maybe sooner than I realize) formalize it by starting my own gaming company.

And this....well not this that's coming up next, but this that's in the post right after this one....this is the rough draft of the mission statement FOR that company.

***

(THIS is not it...this is just some more observations...LOL)

Vel's take on forming the company someday to be known as Velocigames....or something.

This is all kinna bassackwards from the way the big guys do it, and you know what? The big guys make a lot of really crappy games. What did B. Reynolds say? 10% of the gaming titles make 90% of the money? Which means that 90% of the titles are either junk or badly marketed.

So maybe it's time for a new paradigm to shake things up a bit. That doesn't sound like any game I want to play, so here's how WE'RE going to do it, and here's what's going to make us different. Special. Unique. And maybe even cool....

(to be continued)

Velociryx · January 18, 2002, 22:49

The sortakinna mission statement (in the works!)

First, we create.

We prove that we CAN do this. That we're not just a bunch of nobodys who are going to go away.

We create a fairly basic, oddly addictive, vastly replayable Multi-Player/Hotseat game, and we give it away.

Yep. We give it away.

Yeah...I know....that's lunacy according to every major player in the industry....and who the heck are we to think we can come up with a better idea than their vaunted 10/90 approach? Pah! ::as Vel rolls his eyes elaborately (eyes which are, by the way, nearly floating in Nyquil) ::

So I say again. We give it away.

As in Free.

We pour hundreds of hours of our souls into a project and make it the best we can possibly make it within our own self imposed limits of simplicity, and we shoot it out the door....for nothing.

Ahhhh....but wait a second. See, cos it's NOT for nothing after all....it's just not for cash, and that's where the Industry giants have it wrong. They're so used to chasing that dollar that if someone snuck up behind them and tied a buck to their A$$ES they'd spend all day long chasing their tails just like my cat!

Let them.

We'll give our game away, and do you know what we'll get in exchange for it?

A fan base. A following. People who love the game, and who love hanging out on forums talking about it. Giving us ideas for improvements. Talking about things they'd like to see in the next version.

And we....are you ready for this? I'm gonna drop some major VooDoo on you here so brace yourself, 'k?....what we do is....LISTEN TO THEM!

What's more....if nobody is saying anything at a given moment, we don't just assume everything's okay and that nobody has any solid ideas for how we could improve things....we...ready again? Here comes some more VooDoo....go out and ASK QUESTIONS! That's right...cos the simple truth is, we don't have all the answers. We don't know what our players and fan base wants unless we listen and ask.

And then you know what we do? And this is the really cool part....once we listen and ask, then we.....DELIVER THE GOODS!

Yep. We find out what works and what doesn't from the people who spend the most time playing and thinking about the game.

We ask them how it could be better. More elaborate. More immersive. Cooler.

And once we know....we go out and get it done.

Now mind you, there may be things that sound good but are impossible to implement, or things that might work better with some other game, and that's cool too. If that's the case....and this is the biggest, baddes VooDoo of them all....we...TELL THEM SO! More importantly, if we don't think an idea is good for the game or practical, we TELL THEM WHY.

Maybe they'll change our minds on it.

Maybe we'll change theirs.

Hell...maybe neither, but then, that's not really the point. The point is, we're talking to our fans, and they're talking to us. We're NOT a "big corporation" who hides behind a gazillion lawyers and threatens to sue God and everybody who thinks too hard about their game. We're people, just like them. We have hopes and dreams and desires and wishes. Goals.

And, we make good games.

I mean, we make really good, kicka$$ games (yes, I fully intend to use the word "kicka$$" in the company mission statement....just so you know!)

So...after giving our hard work away and listening and asking questions, and then working some more....wanna know what happens then?

Then we formally organize the company. Call it Velocigames, or Infogrames Wishes They Could Publish Our Stuff....or something.

We go out and get some venture capital so people can actually start getting PAID, and that part's easier too now, cos we have a proven track record. We have a popular product and a plan for improving it.

And that's exactly what we do.

First one's on us, just so you know we're not fooling around. Then, we'll ask you to feed the starving artists.

How's that sound?

-=Vel=-
(Leader of the Rebel Alliance)

FNBrown · January 18, 2002, 23:04

Can you eat a fan base?

"No, I don't have cash for my Jumbo Jack Combo meal... will you accept my fan base instead?"

Better at least make it shareware... you know, cough up $20 to PayPal if you like it... or something...

But, hey... don't let an a$$ like me rain on your parade... I hope you can pull it off. I'd play it...

... and, if it doesn't suck, I'll probably even buy you a Jumbo Jack someday.

Velociryx · January 18, 2002, 23:11

Nope....can't eat a fan base (but you can sure sue them or threaten to! Ask the *fine* folk at Infogrames! LOL) Ahhh, but that's just it, see? When it's not about the money in the beginning, the real magic shines through.

The people who are helping me with the project are doing so cos it'll be fun. An adventure. Possibly a resume enhancer. Those are all good, valid reasons for donating spare time, IMO.

And the end result will be....magic.

I'm certain of that.

And after round one....after we prove we CAN do it....then we'll worry 'bout that other stuff....

-=Vel=-

Velociryx · January 18, 2002, 23:16

Case in point....and proof positive that the little guys have more magic and guts than big companies ever even DREAMED of having:

Below is a link to what is quite possibly the finest gaming company in the industry....as anyone who has ever played "Unexploded Cows" can attest to....

http://www.cheapassgames.com

Five guys (six counting the new baby)....makin' cool games. You just can't GET better than that!

-=Vel=-

matso · January 18, 2002, 23:30

Vel,

I'm not that new around here (as my registration date would suggest). I've been keeping up with these boards as a silent observer for the last few years.

This latest idea of yours compels me to post, wishing you all the luck and success in the world. You've proven yourself to me time and again that you have the attitude and mindset to make things happen for yourself (ie. SMAC guide). I'm positive this will be no different.

If you're counting moral supporters for this project of yours, add me. And you might as well add me to your fanbase for the game, cause I know its gonna be great. Good luck, man.

matso

Velociryx · January 18, 2002, 23:52

Thanks for the kind words and support matso! ::hands his new friend a walking stick and a slim jim:: It's a long road from here to ....wherever it goes....shall we see where it leads?

-=Vel=-

Velociryx · January 19, 2002, 00:38

Was doing a bit more thinking, and figured I'd do my thinking "out loud" as it were.

Let's take a closer look at the ol' "10% of the games make 90% of the money" paradigm for a second, cos I think within it, lies the reason that my idea will work.

10% of the games published by the Industry Giants essentially carry the whole industry.

Now, you gotta believe that in a relatively solidified industry that most (not all, to be sure, but most) of those games in the "90% that don't make squat "category also come from those same Industry Giants.

Which means they could prolly up their profit margins by a healthy bit if they stopped publishing crap altogether....AND the consumer would prolly be a good bit happier too!

Or....you could look at it another way.

There's nothing STOPPING these Industry Giants from giving the initial release of their game away (call it an alpha...hell, call it Asparagus or Collard Greens or whatever you want!) But the point is...by GIVING IT AWAY initially, you get a really good sense for the potential fan base of the game. You also get a whole lotta pairs of eyes helping spot bugs and weak spots and gremlins, and all sorts of other nasty little creatures that can creep into your design while you're not looking.

That's the kind of thing that can save a company both time AND money.

Then, once they find out...Hey! Nobody's liking this game even when it's FREE! Maybe it's crap and we should scrap it before we invest any more time and effort into it.

OTOH, they might see that...Hey! We have a runaway best seller on our hands here that nearly crashed the server with all the downloading going on!! You know, if we listened to the people who have played our free alpha, and changed this, this and this....dressed up this interface here and tweaked this....why, we have a ready-made market! And they're practically SALIVATING for the game already, cos we gave them a taste of things to come!

Nahhh....what was I thinkin'....that'd never work....

-=Vel=-
(we shall see....we shall see!)

Velociryx · January 19, 2002, 00:43

Just thought of the perfect way to sum that post up, too:

Why the Hell would any company in their right mind wait until the game was gold, and on its way out the door to find out if it sucked or not?

And yet...that's the "Industry Standard." In the whole history of computer gaming....that's the best strategy they could come up with....LOL!

That's corporate ILLOGIC at its very best!

Too funny.

-=Vel=-
(this is gonna be more fun than I thought!)

Velociryx · January 19, 2002, 01:00

'k...now I'm sure it looks like I'm talking to myself...these meds are doing funky things to my brain....I'm sleepy and I feel like reconstituted...hmm...don't think it'll let me put that word on the post...but I'm sure you get my meaning....and I can't SLEEP!

So....if anyone happens this way in the midst of all my late night rambling, perhaps this will provide some amusement! ::as he vaguely wonders if he'll even remember writing all this...it's like a public diary almost...LOL::

Anyway....it just dawned on me...that's JUST what this is.

THIS is....the ultimate strategy game.

No no no! Not the game we're making.....Candle'Bre is a cool game and all, but it's not the end-all of gaming, to be sure....noooo, I mean THIS....the whole, start up a little ruffian company and go out and DO something in the midst of the Land of Giants. THIS is the ultimate strategy game!

Risks? Plenty! I could crash and burn the whole thing....it would suck, but nobody would die.....still, there'd be a lot of disappointment if the idea really gained momentum and then petered out....so risk yeah, but not of the life threatening variety, and as madman said...beats the hell out of moving a hundred tanks around individually (btw, that WON"T be an issue in Candle'Bre....cos we won't be using tanks...LOL)

Reward? Absolutely! Even for the free version! Cos I'll be playing a game that I know I'll like! (errr...at least I'd better like it...I designed the core rules!....LOL). And, it'll be kinna cool to be able to sit down at my computer and play my kinna game! I like that....yeah...

Adventure? Plenty of that! Meeting new people, sharing ideas, debating and arguing....haggling over features in much the same way you haggle over that spiffy lamp in the Bazzar in Kahsult....awesome stuff!

Intrigue? You betcha! 'specially when we prove that a) we can do this thing, and b) that the Velociryx-Mastermind-Top-Secret-Plan-For-Marketing-Genius-That-Will-Eventually-Take-Over-The-World (hereby dubbed as it's official title, btw) actually WORKS! Then....yeah...I can see some intrigue heading our way.

Selling out eventually? Yes! Every time our games hit the shelves, in fact! That's what I'm shooting for! And Infogreed can bite me....heh!

Know what's best of all though?

I like it here.

I like the people and the conversations....the community.

I believe in you guys, and I think you're gonna be the biggest part of the whole thing....cos you've been interested so far. You've offered suggestions and words of warning and advice, and I do not believe you will ALLOW ME....ALLOW US to come out with a game that sucks.

You'll catch it before it gets close to that, and we'll fix it.

And if it can't be fixed, we'll scrap it and try something different.

In advance then....thank you!

This is gonna be one bada$$ strategy game! (And Candle'Bre will be pretty cool too!)

-=Vel=-
(who will try not to ramble tooooo much more tonight! LOL)

Velociryx · January 19, 2002, 01:25

::sigh:: okay, sombody lock my keyboard and take away my supply of meds! LOL

Can't sleep....I'm tired, I'm wired, and I'm jazzed about the game!

And, since I've taken this thread about as far off topic as it could possibly go, I'll post some of my initial observations about the game design in hopes of fostering a discussion about it, and what may need to be changed/tweaked/improved/tossed out altogether.

First off, it's relatively simple as games go. What I mean by that is, I intentionally streamlined and simplified a LOT of the initial concepts I had for it based on early feedback about the difficulties involved with making something with tooooo much complexity right off the bat!

I've not forgotten those things, and once we get something playable out the door, we can start ramping up the complexity.

Was thinking too, that if we made it MP from the getgo (MP/hotseat) then we could put off worrying about making good AI code (of course, it may be the case that MP/Hotseat code is just as tricky as AI code, in which case we're not really saving ourselves anything...so I dunno, but the thought is there).

Another cool thing....variability. Replayability.

The game start as I've outlined in the core rules allows for a....well, not near-infinite, but a damn lotta different configurations and strats you can START with.

First, there's five factions to play, each with their own unique playing style.

And, you pick five contiguous starting territories, so you can try starts in different locations, forcing different expansion tactics.

And you can build a different starting force each time.

You get to choose between starting with a temple (Influence) or Barracks (non-mercenary troops).

All sorts of good stuff just on the opener!

And once the game begins, two fundamentally different ways to win. One is very much focused on cooperation and alliance (accumulation of honor thru honorable deeds, chief among them is being a noble and good ally), or, straight up conquest, 2/3rd of the Kingdom under your banner and you win.

The combat system, while relatively simple (no firepower, no hp's....straight kill/capture/miss kinna stuff for now) is constructed in a way that almost DEMANDS combined arms to succeed (using a three-tier combat system, fought in rounds).

Another cool thing I'd LIKE to see (don't know about the feasibility tho) is simultaneous moves. That'd make things even dicier!

Three tech branches to persue, Espionage and sneaky stuff to tilt the game in your favor, and a random event engine too....all of which adds an element of unpredictability that I HOPE will lend itself well to replayability....that was foremost on my mind when I was putting the puzzle pieces together.

So....yeah. I think the basic system has a lot going for it.

-=Vel=-

pg · January 19, 2002, 02:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx
Why the Hell would any company in their right mind wait until the game was gold, and on its way out the door to find out if it sucked or not?

That's corporate ILLOGIC at its very best!

Too funny.

actually some of the better game makers have closed or open beta tests. the quake series did this, qtest, q3test, etc. also almost all mmorpgs have beta tests of some kind. blizzard is having a drawing to see who gets to beta test warcraft3. the smarter guys in the industry seem to know this works, but only if you make a quality product or can make quality improvements to your product. there is no reason to let people play your game if you have reason to believe it would hurt your sales.

Skanky Burns · January 19, 2002, 08:53

Quote:

Originally posted by pg
there is no reason to let people play your game if you have reason to believe it would hurt your sales.

Thats just the thinking that most companies employ. But rember back to the release of Doom, by the then small company ID software.
The whole first episode of the game, 11 (or so) missions, given away FREE*!! Not just the first mission, or a dumbed down version of the game, but the ENTIRE first episode, a full third of the whole game was just given away.

Did it hurt their sales??

I would argue that the first episode increase the fans' desire for more of what they experienced, leading to even greater sales. The fact that first episode was free led to it being very widespread, virtually anyone who had a computer had a copy of doom. Maybe most didnt end up paying for the other 2 episodes.
Regardless, the folks that developed that game were soon driving Ferrari's.

* While technically shareware, meaning you had to pay if you enjoyed the product, the game was given without any crippling features. You got access to 7 of the 8 weapons and all missions in that episode without them ever forcing you to pay for the game.

Skanky Burns · January 19, 2002, 08:58

BTW Vel, what is happening with your ongoing strategy guide.
Now that you have the game more balanced to you liking, will you be dedicating strategies to that game, have a non-modified version to continue developing strategies for others, or what??
Just wondering. I plan on installing the mod with no name as soon as I have finished the 4th 'Poly tournament as it sounds like much fun.

And I hope you feel better ASAP Vel

EDIT: Wrong tournament number. Im not waiting till tournament 5 before installing the mod with no name!!

EDIT2: Why does making text size = small actually make the text larger than normal text??

Heliodorus · January 19, 2002, 12:32

Speaking from a historical perspective, the way you plan on doing it is much like the way ID started.

To make a prudent point, however, I must address what could be a logical danger for your first release, which is this: IF your earliest market-test release is fully modifiable, then you may lose it at that point. The earliest release ought not be fully modable.

Some history about Team Fortress Classic (the quake version) is in order, as is the subject of Half-Life Counterstrike... Basically, Valve went out and bought them and avoided legal issues. The quake version, as I understand it, was shut down (later ported to Half-Life). But Valve could both afford to "do the right thing" in purchasing the hard work of the Counterstrike team (and others) and more than likely to apply some pressure to pursue legal options to keep the buying price affordable.

That being said, you have a council of 5 and a council of 7. Fix that

or I will keep getting confused. "Ramp up" is a poor-man's way of saying "increase" fix that or I will have a canniption fit (I am, after all, an editor for a living).

Please be sure to post if you take this thread elsewhere. I don't know what I can do other than spell-check and grammar check (I'd offer to write creatively for you, but you obviously have a taste for that yourself). I do wish to follow your progress, though. I'll happily encourage and provide grounding as I see necessary.

Velociryx · January 19, 2002, 12:48

What can I say but WOW! I had no idea I was so long-winded last night! LOL!

Comments all around:

PG: Good points about the companies that use public betas, however, I would say that they're not doing as much as they COULD be. True, a limited public beta (say...pick twenty-five people and let them run with it) does put more eyeballs on the problem, but, imagine how many MORE eyeballs there could be.

And, if the game just REEKS, you'll find out very quickly by opening the initial release to all, cos you'll HEAR about it, en mass.

'bout hurting sales...again, you're right. If they have strong evidence that such a move would hurt sales, it would not behoove anyone to do so! However, I would contend that such evidence does not exist. In fact, I would contend that if you have a winning game on your hands, and you give away the alpha....let people see just how cool it is, and give them the opportunity to put a part of themselves into it by offering ideas for improvement when you ramp...errrr....when you increase the complexity of the design for the commercial product.....well....I can only speak from personal experience here, but if I was given such an opportunity, I can tell you that I'd be among the FIRST in line to buy the commercial release! AND I'd be talking about it with anyone who would listen.

Word of mouth is a tremendously powerful tool, and is the most efficient, effective form of PR there is. If you totally open yourself up to it, you can really take that places. If you act like the troll living under the bridge waiting for the Billy Goats Gruff to pass by, word of mouth can really bite you in the butt!

Skanky! Hey man! And I hope you like the Alpha version of the Mod! It's a whoooooole new ballgame bud! I'm QUITE pleased with what we've been able to do so far, and we've got some killer ideas in the mix for the next iteration!

As to strategy....I think things are at a sufficient point of development that I can once more turn my attention to rooting thru the strategy thread and collecting the latest wealth of ideas from there to post in a new strat thread (since we're over the post limit! Eek!) And, I may start up a side thread, specifically for strategies, post mod. There are a number of things to do differently (the FIRST thing I stumbled into, for example, is using the Barbs--now QUITE terrifying!--as the leading element in an invasion of an AI held city....lead the barbs to the city and let them sack it, then....waltz in behind! LOL

So....my plan is to start combing thru the thread today, and working a bit of copy/paste magic....maybe try to get a doc compiled by today or tomorrow.

Heli - *Outstanding* point re: limiting moddability for the initial release! Can't say that I thought about it in those terms, but you're absolutely right! Well said!

Oh...and please forgive the typos and odd speech patterns from last night....I was on a Nyquil buzz when I wrote all that, and not quite myself...LOL

-=Vel=-

PS: How 'bout if we call them the Council of 5 and the Council of Seven?

Errr....Jackson....5?

Trifna · January 19, 2002, 13:15

I'm mixed up cuz it seems too nice... but if I really got it, got that you, Vel, was going to build a gaming company, well if so, receive ll my best wishes

PS: Did I got it right?..... At first I thought it was some kind of sarcasm to Firaxis...

Velociryx · January 19, 2002, 13:30

You got it, and thank you! LOL....the mixup was prolly more on account of the vast quantities of cold meds I was operating under the influence of last night than anything else....it....did something to my writing....

-=Vel=-

Thoth · January 19, 2002, 16:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx
You got it, and thank you! LOL....the mixup was prolly more on account of the vast quantities of cold meds I was operating under the influence of last night than anything else....it....did something to my writing....

-=Vel=-

LOL

I haven't seen writing like that since the last time I stayed up for 60 hrs straight....gave me a good belly laugh or two. Love it when the doors of perception open up while the creative fire is burning hot.

I wish you all the best with your venture, I'd offer to help but I'm not sure I have any skills (other than playtesting/ troubleshooting) that would help.

I like the "First fix is free" marketing idea, get 'em hooked then make 'em pay.

Velociryx · January 19, 2002, 18:11

LOL...Thoth...yep...dat's me...gonna be a virtual crack dealer...errr...sorta...

And shoot man! We'll be needin' plenty of playtesters down the line! If you have the patience for it, you (and anybody else who is stubborn enough to put together a makeshift version of the boardgame) can jump in and give us some ideas now! I'm babysitting servers t'day at work, and brought all my supplies with me, got a five way game up in the server room! It was....cumbersome, as first tests always are, and I had to make up a few new rulings on the fly, but that's to be expected.

All the new rulings are listed in the comment thread for the game (in the "other games" section of 'poly) and I'll be adding the last bit back as soon as we get back from dinner!)

And ohhhh yes! Those doors of perception were wide open last evening! In fact, I'm STILL floating on that creative high! I'm glad it gave you some laughs, too! I re-read what I wrote when I got to the office this morning and was...shakin' my head at some of it!

Thank you for the words of encouragement, and even if you don't feel like wrestling a makeshift version of the boardgame together, we'll see 'bout getting some kinna something whipped together soon that can be played on the 'puter....see how she runs that way!

-=Vel=-

Cyclotron · January 19, 2002, 18:42

Free... heh, I love that word. Every shirt that I own was procured without paying... and no, I'm not a master shirt thief. Who can resist the mystic attraction of the free T-shirt?

Sounds like an interesting project. I've seen many initiatives like this in all parts of life fail miserably, and I tend to not take these things very seriously... however, I'm not one to pass up free stuff or to turn away from an interesting proposal. I'm willing to help (although I have no usable skills at all

, except my "imagination" which everybody says I have too much of... kinda like free shirts...).

Where are you coordinating your creation efforts for this project?

Spaced Cowboy · January 19, 2002, 19:55

Vel,

Wow, like I have time to read all of your threads on the weekend. Guess that I'll have to wait until I get back to work on Mon. God luck on the game co. I tried to this myself but I was not enough to make a dent in it. Your team approach actually has a chance. Will you have enough time to put into it. It will cut into everything that you do.

The thing that killed it for me was that I was spending more time making games than playing them. That would be good if I had a playable game at any time in the near to distant. Also, when you make your own, it does make it less interesting to play fyi.

I'm finally getting the chance to try the mod this weekend. I'll let you know what I think. Would you consider starting a new strategy thread about the mod.?

Also I saw that someone posted some futuristic weapons. Maybe more techs and more KA units will give the player some incentive to continue in the modern sections.

Glad to see that you are re-enchanted. Sweet!

Velociryx · January 20, 2002, 06:37

Hey guys! Didn't know who would be looking where, so I figured I'd post this message here as well! (and it answers the question posed about where we're doing the coordinating!)

****
'morning all! Yep...this would be Vel, having pulled an all-nighter testing and hammering the new game into shape! Ran SEVERAL fascinating tests using the system, but I'll not go into all of that now....(subliminal message: but it ROCKS! lol)....just wanted to duck in here to say that I'm relocating the main Candle'Bre discussion over to my forum as I did with the Mod-With-No-Name so we don't muck 'poly up with a gazillion different threads about everything relating to it.

So....for everyone who's helping out, and for anyone who's just curious what we'll be up to over there, here's the link to my place:

The Renaissance Portal

Just click on the "discussion forums" link....Candle'Bre is at the top of the page!

So far, the only things there are a copy of the core rules and a sign-in thread for folks helping out, wanting to help out, considering helping out, or who just wanna put their name on the list...

-=Vel=-
PS to RPM! Thanks for the well-wishing!

I'm sure hoping it's gonna happen bud! All I know is that there are an *awful lot* of talented people volunteering to help get this show on the road, and I think that really boosts our chances for success! My fingers are crossed that you're enjoying the mod....the new barbs are *terrifying* so watch out for them!

-V

Leonidas · January 20, 2002, 13:10

Here's a suggestion Vel:

It might be worth while to begin such an enterprise by first attempting to improve an already existing game that was released a few years ago, and which the company of that game has stopped selling.

For example: Matrix Games did this for Pacific War, War in Russia, and Steel Panthers.

The NWS Team did this for Fighting Steel and Fleet Command.

They essentially looked at a couple of games they wanted to improve, put together a tentative team, and then approached the companies of the games they wanted to work on. They received permission to work on, and improve the games in question, provided NO money was made from them. In return, the game companies provided these teams with code, information, etc.

This might be a way to "get your feet wet", so to speak.

If you're interested in re-doing a strategy game, look at some of the games that have been released over the past few years, and see which ones might be worth re-doing. Imagine the help you would have from this HUGE community!

It might be worth starting a list of the games that are worth re-doing, and start from there.

Anyway, just a few ideas for you. Best of luck

Velociryx · January 20, 2002, 13:26

An outstanding idea, Leonidas! But, we're already surprisingly far along in our planning for the Candle'Bre project....still, it's something to *strongly* consider doing down the road...Hmmm...MOM anyone?

-=Vel=-

Skanky Burns · January 20, 2002, 20:07

While we've got the creative juices flowing, I'll add my idea for what we could consider re-doing... XCom

One of the earlier versions (1, 2, or 3), back when they were still strategy games

Velociryx · January 20, 2002, 21:16

Hmmm...cool! I never played Xcom, but sure....::grins:: Heck....it might be an interesting way to draw people to our website (errr...once we HAVE a website)....maybe take one really oldster under our wing and tweak it in our "spare time" and since we're talking older games, we're also talking SMALLER games in terms of overall size, AND, since we can't make any money off of them, we could just sorta put 'em out on the server....sort of a....here ya go...while you're looking around on our site getting' the latest updates and all, here's a cool, dressed up old game....

-=Vel=-

Willem · January 20, 2002, 21:39

SSI did a number of strategy games back in the Commodore 64 days. I don't even think they're around anymore.

OneInTen · January 20, 2002, 22:04

I admire your enthusiasm, but I see one big flaw in your reasoning, and it is as follows:

That 10% of games make 90% of the money is not the only 90/10 rule in effect.

It's also that maybe 10% of the fans are the hardcore gamers you're pushing for, 90% of the game purchases are made by casual gamers.

Those 10% of sales you're chasing by polling the hardcore fans for ideas (who despite buying 10% of the games aren't even 10% of the game buying population, ie they're a small focus group) may (and most likely will) hurt the area you need to make the bulk of your sales in to be a success.

With the amount of money it costs to produce a commercial quality game these days, you really can't afford to just chase small niches of the market, you have to make some concessions to the mass market and make the game something everyone will enjoy, not just a small group of hardcore fans.

In any case, I susspect you'll fall into the "can't please all the people, all the time" trap in listening to the public while making your game. People tend to have a lot longer memory for the one time when you went against their idea than the previous 9 times when you listened, so very quickly you get a whole heap of disappointed fans, who you infact listened to 90% of the time!

The great games have been because one person or a small group of people followed their vision, not because a whole lot of people got together and designed a game by commitee. I know there's always got to be a first that sets a new trend, but I'd be very careful to understand the risks involved before committing any money to such a venture (you're talking about making a company which implies putting down your money to make it happen, right?)

Velociryx · January 20, 2002, 22:26

Hmmm....you make excellent points, OneInTen! And I'd not disagree with your core point about not being able to please everybody all the time AND about NOT designing a game by committee. Both of those things are very dangerous traps to fall into, and I'll be working pretty hard to avoid them as our project continues to move along (and so far, it's moving along pretty well, just to keep everybody updated!)

Here's how we're going about it:
1) We've got a well defined vision, and we're gonna follow it. I've made my vision of the game very clear both in the design of the rules themselves, and in my descriptons of the kind of evetual interface/atmosphere I want the game to project. The key, as you said, is in getting everybody on the same page, vision wise, and running with it.

The trap to that, however, the other side of that coin is that if your vision is not one that a lot of people can readily "get into" you wind up with exactly what you described.....a niche game, at best. At worst....a game that the people on the design team like to play, but nobody else really does.

So....to avoid that, once we've got a crystal clear image of what the vision IS, then we open it up to the public and do a little show and tell. Not quite the same thing as "design by committee" cos the groundwork is already in place...the spirit of the vision MUST be maintained, and so, even if a *highly* popular feature is clamored for, if it just doesn't "fit" with the game in question...if it is not in the spirit of the game's vision, then the answer has got to be, "It's a cool idea, but not for this game."

But if you get lots of people jazzed up about the vision you start with, you'll get few, if any sugesstions that fall outside those bounds in any case (or at least that was my experience when we were putting together the alpha for the Mod-With-No-Name). Everybody knew what kinds of things I was looking for, and those were generally the kinds of sugesstions and ideas we got.

So...we keep everybody on the same page, we *should* avoid the first pitfall you mention, and as to the second....you're right. There's a world of difference between a hardcore gamer and a casual gamer, however, they do have things in common. Civ2 attracted both types, for example. And there have been many other 4x games that have and do. I think the easiest way to avoid catering so much to the hardcore group at the expense of the casual group is to make the game accessible. Deep, complex game play, yes, but make it largely under the hood. You can get to it if you wanna (hardcore) but if you just want to play a good game and not worry about all the details, you don't have to (casual). Not that you can please them both absolutely all the time, but they do share things in common that can be played to.

But, as the story continues to unfold, I shall continue to report back here how things are going, and it is my *sincere* hope that one day....maybe sooner than I realize....I'll come back here with a link to a file that can be downloaded and played....

THAT would rock....

-=Vel=-
(pluggin' away!)