two months have passed, and we have no idea when next patch will be released

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Grumbold
This swine therefore clearly cannot choose the pearl in front of me...

Why would they be working on a patch when there is nothing important broken to fix and their publishers would be much more interested in expanded features like multiplayer and scenarios that they can sell?

Exactly! I'm for that one. Firaxis and Infogrames have made themselves openly obvious - their out for money and profit now.

Charles.

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

Just out of curiosity, Charles, when you go to work in the morning, do you do it out of love for your boss, or is it because you need to earn a living?

Dan

[Pythagoras]

Originally posted by CharlesUFarley


Exactly! I'm for that one. Firaxis and Infogrames have made themselves openly obvious - their out for money and profit now.

Charles.

Well I have no problem whatsoever with that. PC gaming is rarely a profitable industry due to the high amount of replayability per dollar that is demanded. This is especially true in the strategy genre. Im willing to bet many players will buy this game and not buy another for several months, due to the fact that its civ, the most replayable single player game ever. I dont remember ever being able to exhaousts Civ 1's replayability over several years of playing. A console gamer, on the other hand, might at average get 50(?) hours of gameplay out of a $50 purchase, and are willing to buy games more readily, maybe several times a month.
(There was a good DailyRadar editorial so this)

So I really could care less if they are trying to milk the game. I have no problem pay for expansion pacts. In fact I think Civ, and most PC games, should be have a subscription service, wherby to get updates (patches/expansion pacts) and to be able to use them you have to pay say a $5 monthly fee. And Firaxis would dedicate a good amount of people to continuing the Civ3 design process (more than there is today). People could cancel their subscription if they saw Firaxis as being inept (maybe like they have been recently) and the glory of capitalism will continue to shine .

[Th0mas]

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
Just out of curiosity, Charles, when you go to work in the morning, do you do it out of love for your boss, or is it because you need to earn a living?

Dan

Ouch...he he...

Originally posted by CharlesUFarley
The next step will be the expansion pack or something similar, and knowing them and their egotisticle selfish bahaviour.. it will definately cost money

Oh no Dan, charles doesn't need to earn money - he lives on Free Lunches.

[Kiltdown]

The concept of a patch means different things to different people. Lately, many seem to confuse patch, enhancement, upgrade. That goes for companies as well as customers.

I guess I'm too old to break out of the old definition of a patch: a code update between releases to fix things that don't work at all, or don't work as advertised. Companies should feel obligated to patch, at no cost, as they are simply living up to promises. Companies should want to do enhancements or upgrades for no cost if they yield fewer returns or more purchases.

I've seen a lot of things discussed as being in the next patch that strike me as enhancements or upgrades: stack moves and multiplayer being the two most obvious.

I just want them to do the REAL patches - either patching the manual/civopedia or the game. I want shift-p to work if there's still a splotch nearby. I want to see a message that reads Mr. Hammurabi, ... instead of Mr. ,... I want the corruption magnitude "negligible" under Democracy changed to "crippling beyond measure" so that it matches the way the game actually works.

If they find the time to improve the stuff that normal fallible human developers didn't see during playtesting (or didnt have time to fix), like stack moves, more power to 'em. I'll think better of them and their company, and maybe that's worth something to them.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
Just out of curiosity, Charles, when you go to work in the morning, do you do it out of love for your boss, or is it because you need to earn a living?

Dan

My god has it been a year already - good to hear from you again Dan (not that you answered my last post anyway!).

Earn a living ofcoarse, not too many people on this earth have good relationships with thier bosses. But with good relationships with fellow employees and customer satisfaction the business will do even better! Without either of those two things the business will eventually suffer.

If I received as many complaints as Firaxis has regarding customer/product disatisfaction and I did nothing about it - I'd be FIRED. In business' you are dedicated to please the consumer with your product and services, with not only quality but support. And in your line of business support is crucial to the average consumer. In Firaxis' case the consumer has complained, and your team is choosing a very un-proffesional approach - to ignore it. I say "un-proffesional" because any mature adult representing a business should be able to handle criticism and hate-mail with complete self assurance and firm responses.

The only way this is possible is either your sales are good enough to produce a decent profit and walk away, or your profit is or will be (by market estimates) in danger of dropping. Now I'm not un-realistic, if your profit's have met standards or even exheeded them by all means ignore the rabble. But without a fan community for this product line, this product has no future. And I know enough about marketing to know that even a small percentage of the consumers can create a problem with sales. But I guess that's what this is all about with you guys, you care more about your paycheck now than the passion for game development and the dream that Sid once had. Where is the "Firaxis Mind" at now, profit or dream?

I don't think the civ-community is asking for that which Firaxis cannot provide, in terms of responses that is. We're not asking for dates, schedules or even your personal wages. All we're asking for is a progress report every now and then. But a website update every once and a while would definately solve your lack of time issue. We do deserve to know what the development team is working on, so that we know where are efforts are better spent. Otherwise what good is feedback if we have no idea "what material is being used" and "what isn't". I was upset with the game but now I have an entirely new thing to be upset at - your lack of support or helpfull information, your forgetting Dan we too care about the future of this product, otherwise why would we be fighting so hard!

PS. I completely respect the fact that you guys have to earn a living too and profit from it. But your "product" is where a portion of our living is spent! And I would certainly pay more for each game title, if more of our participation and dedication was acknowledged.

- Work smarter, not harder.

Charles.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Pythagoras
So I really could care less if they are trying to milk the game. I have no problem pay for expansion pacts. In fact I think Civ, and most PC games, should be have a subscription service, wherby to get updates (patches/expansion pacts) and to be able to use them you have to pay say a $5 monthly fee. And Firaxis would dedicate a good amount of people to continuing the Civ3 design process (more than there is today). People could cancel their subscription if they saw Firaxis as being inept (maybe like they have been recently) and the glory of capitalism will continue to shine .

You said a word that cought my attention "re-playability". I'm all for spending more money on Civ3, if the future expansions or upgrades will include the fully customizable editor with complete scenario design - no limitations, graphics and all. Otherwise this is a TBS game that will lose it's flavour and eventually collect dust on my shelf like Civilization 1. Civ2 is an excellent model for the Civ-TBS style game, although it had it's problems and the graphics weren't something to go nuts over - it was still very succesful once it was improved.

Charles.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Th0mas
Oh no Dan, charles doesn't need to earn money - he lives on Free Lunches.

" Oh Dan, pick me! pick me! "

Can anyone hear that sucking sound?

Charles.

[Stryfe]

Originally posted by CharlesUFarley

" Oh Dan, pick me! pick me! "

Can anyone hear that sucking sound?

Charles.

What a jackass. Grow up.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Stryfe


What a jackass. Grow up.

Oh another self-indulged suck up, I rest my case.

Charles.

[Kiltdown]

Originally posted by CharlesUFarley


My god has it been a year already - good to hear from you again Dan (not that you answered my last post anyway!).

Earn a living ofcoarse, not too many people on this earth have good relationships with thier bosses. But with good relationships with fellow employees and customer satisfaction the business will do even better! Without either of those two things the business will eventually suffer.

If I received as many complaints as Firaxis has regarding customer/product disatisfaction and I did nothing about it - I'd be FIRED. In business' you are dedicated to please the consumer with your product and services, with not only quality but support. And in your line of business support is crucial to the average consumer. In Firaxis' case the consumer has complained, and your team is choosing a very un-proffesional approach - to ignore it. I say "un-proffesional" because any mature adult representing a business should be able to handle criticism and hate-mail with complete self assurance and firm responses.

The only way this is possible is either your sales are good enough to produce a decent profit and walk away, or your profit is or will be (by market estimates) in danger of dropping. Now I'm not un-realistic, if your profit's have met standards or even exheeded them by all means ignore the rabble. But without a fan community for this product line, this product has no future. And I know enough about marketing to know that even a small percentage of the consumers can create a problem with sales. But I guess that's what this is all about with you guys, you care more about your paycheck now than the passion for game development and the dream that Sid once had. Where is the "Firaxis Mind" at now, profit or dream?

I don't think the civ-community is asking for that which Firaxis cannot provide, in terms of responses that is. We're not asking for dates, schedules or even your personal wages. All we're asking for is a progress report every now and then. But a website update every once and a while would definately solve your lack of time issue. We do deserve to know what the development team is working on, so that we know where are efforts are better spent. Otherwise what good is feedback if we have no idea "what material is being used" and "what isn't". I was upset with the game but now I have an entirely new thing to be upset at - your lack of support or helpfull information, your forgetting Dan we too care about the future of this product, otherwise why would we be fighting so hard!

PS. I completely respect the fact that you guys have to earn a living too and profit from it. But your "product" is where a portion of our living is spent! And I would certainly pay more for each game title, if more of our participation and dedication was acknowledged.

- Work smarter, not harder.

Charles.

Wow, you are a high maintenance to revenue customer.

Bad news for you though: companies don't worry a lot about pleasing that type of customer - it's bad business, mainly because sometimes there is no "enough".

Most products aren't meant to be perfect, merely the best possible for the investment a company chooses to make in them. That goes for support for those products too. The line a company draws will not please everyone. Some will choose not to buy because the quality is not good enough, regardless of how inexpensive the product is. Others won't care about how much quality there is if the product is too expensive. All companies try to find a middle ground they think will work to make them money. Just Business 101.

Here's an example. All companies with customer support call centers track something called an Abandonment Rate. This is the percent of customers who give up while waiting in a queue. Some never return, and companies understand this. Clearly, a company could hire enough reps to drive that rate to zero, but they don't because it can't be cost-justified. They try to make it as close to zero as they can, and as close as they can afford to make it.

I'm sure all game companies would love it if they could have an infinite amount of resources to apply to making every customer feel good. The bitter reality is that tough decisions have to me made, and some customers are going to go away mad.

The Web throws a bit of a spanner in those works, as the customers don't actually go away, they hang around nurturing and sharing their hurt and outrage, sometimes for months afterwards. Companies haven't figured that one out yet.

[CharlesUFarley]

The average consumer is in defiance of capitalism, but it is a necisary evil I suppose.

Charles.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Kiltdown



Wow, you are a high maintenance to revenue customer.

Bad news for you though: companies don't worry a lot about pleasing that type of customer - it's bad business, mainly because sometimes there is not "enough".

Believe me, we know it. That's one of the major reasons why myself and many others are contributing to negative feedback. But still with the slight hope of being heard one day, if at all.

Most products aren't meant to be perfect, merely the best possible for the investment a company chooses to make in them. That goes for support for those products too. The line a company draws will not please everyone. Some will choose not to buy because the quality is not good enough, regardless of how inexpensive the product is. Others won't care about how much quality there is if the product is too expensive. All companies try to find a middle ground they think will work to make them money. Just Business 101.

No one is asking for a "please every customer" result, that would be un-realistic - in the business sense, ofcoarse. But we are asking for the "customizable" aspects of this product, so that each and every individual can customize the game to his/her liking, that would decrease the "what if's" and "why not's". Wouldn't you agree?

Here's an example. All companies with customer support call centers track something called an Abandonment Rate. This is the percent of customers who give up while waiting in a queue. Some never return, and companies understand this. Clearly, a company could hire enough reps to drive that rate to zero, but they don't because it can't be cost-justified. They try to make it as close to zero as they can, and as close as they can afford to make it.

I guess that's where it all lies then, doesn't it? Whether or not the abandoment rate or loss of sales will open enough eyes to make a change or two.

I'm sure all game companies would love it if they could have an infinite amount of resources to apply to making every customer feel good. The bitter reality is that tough decisions have to me made, and some customers are going to go away mad.

Like I said above - it all rests on the "numbers". But that's not to say that my cause is useless - I'm contributing to those negative numbers.

The Web throws a bit of a spanner in those works, as the customers don't actually go away, they hang around nurturing and sharing their hurt and outrage, sometimes for months afterwards. Companies haven't figured that one out yet.

Such as the nature of the beast, I guess the consumer and company have a common grey area - for an upset consumer to 'win' it's victory it has to create enough of a presence in the marketplace to demand a change. And from the business side of it, the company will ignore it's consumer until their numbers grow and finally affect sales. I'm well aware of that concept, thats half of the reason I am here.

Charles.

[Jeffrey Morris FIRAXIS]

The Web throws a bit of a spanner in those works, as the customers don't actually go away, they hang around nurturing and sharing their hurt and outrage, sometimes for months afterwards.

Try years...

Jeff

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Jeffrey Morris FIRAXIS


Try years...

Jeff

Then why not work with us, instead of against us, geez! We're either your allies, or your enemies - it's perfectly logical. There is no "hate" in this matter, I don't know any of you personally, just as you guys don't know us. It's business, either we can help or we can't. Smell the roses!

Charles.

[Pythagoras]

Originally posted by CharlesUFarley


Then why not work with us, instead of against us, geez! We're either your allies, or your enemies - it's perfectly logical. There is no "hate" in this matter, I don't know any of you personally, just as you guys don't know us. It's business, either we can help or we can't. Smell the roses!

Charles.

Some points and infinite elipsi

1 The game works 99% of the time.... (try EU1 or 2 on release)
2 The standard civ3 game can probably be played for years without growing old.
3 You can live with things like your knights making high pitched girly sounds.
4 Its not like Firaxians go into work and sit on their duffs all day long, they are doing something to earn their dough, and being Firaxians that something translates to your entertainment.
5 Some of us keep ourselves busy with our lives as well as the occasional civ3 game.
6 Go patronize the never amazingly profitable strategy gaming industry and buy EU2 if you are that bored.
7 Firaxis knows we want a patch one new complainer isnt going to change Firaxis's grand strategy.
8 If you hate the game - you shouldnt have bought the game on release without doing some research you savvy consumers you.

[Kiltdown]

Originally posted by Jeffrey Morris FIRAXIS


Try years...

Jeff

One of the interesting things about this phenomenon is the apparent bizarre correlation between repeat business and complaint level. I've been a casual student of this since the days of the UO release. Here are some tedious and probably inaccurate musings.

Strongly dissatisfied people don't bother to post or reply, they made a mistake and cut their losses early, usually with a terminal event of returned product. They are invisible save for their statistics.

Moderately dissatisfied people complain for a while, then give up and accept what comes, or simply give up. They go quietly into that dark night. When the next release comes out, they are likely to buy it.

Generally satisfied people come and make suggestions, raise issues, look for tips. When the next release comes out, they almost certainly buy it.

Positively passionate customers love helping others love the game as much as they do. They're usually too busy having healthy, productive lives that they miss the Beta announcement by a day. When not being generally helpful to newbs, they post in opposition to ...

THE WRONGED. These are the negatively passionate customers who so love the product (or the thought of what the product could be) that each flaw hurts like a harsh word from the spouse. Eventually that pain drives them mad, though they never seem to actually leave. They will claim to sever a connection to the game, usually with a "Why I must leave" announcement numbering between 2 and 4 pages in one (or more) message board, though they will probably just lurk ever after. They will almost certainly find a way to make it into the beta for the next release. That news is sort of good: their critical nature is often a great boon to testing and play-testing. Any advice not followed become a cause celebre after release however. Did I fail to mention it? They always buy the next release.

[Dida]

STACKED MOVEMENT!!!
WE NEED THE STACKS.

This game is too f**king tedious toward the end w/o it. I have been playing it even since it came out. But only completed 2 games. Because I just got tired of moving hundreds of tanks. A patch is absoluted needed.

[bahoo]

Hey Firaxis, instead of firing off these short little childish remarks, why don't you answer the friggin' question, that being is there another patch in the works?

You complain about all the noise on these forums, yet you sit here and provoke it. It's one thing not to answer a thread, it's all whole nother to post in the thread and not even answer it. I could probably make a list of 5 questions, that if you gave an honest, thorough response to, would wipe out 90% of the noise.

But we all know the real reason why you don't answer. Because you're NOT making another patch, don't intend to make another patch, and aren't going to say that because your game is still sitting on the shelves at stores.

[Oerdin]

Originally posted by Libertarian
I therefore clearly cannot choose the wine in front of me...

Hehe, that was a good movie. "AASsssss you WIIIISSSSHHH!!!!" I always did like Andre the Giant.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by bahoo
You complain about all the noise on these forums, yet you sit here and provoke it. It's one thing not to answer a thread, it's all whole nother to post in the thread and not even answer it.

sometimes it's really hard not to post, no matter what guidelines you have said you will follow in your use of the forums

I could probably make a list of 5 questions, that if you gave an honest, thorough response to, would wipe out 90% of the noise.

hint: check out a certain thread in the strategy forum

But we all know the real reason why you don't answer. Because you're NOT making another patch, don't intend to make another patch, and aren't going to say that because your game is still sitting on the shelves at stores.

yeap, and they are just sitting in their desks, doing nothing or lurking in the apolyton forums having fun while watching us wait for the patch



patches are like women: if you wait for one and it doesnt come then it was probably not worth it
so, forget about waiting and if it comes, be happy. if not, move on with your life

[Argos65987]

Everyone that has their panties in a knot over news of a patch please read the following thread:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=40647

If Firaxis gave a tentative date for patch release and missed (which happens, no matter what anyone says about never missing a deadline, all I say to that is "So far...") they would be burned in effigy.

Everyone, now, collective deep breath. The sun will surely still rise tomorrow.

[Pythagoras]

Originally posted by MarkG
sometimes it's really hard not to post, no matter what guidelines you have said you will follow in your use of the forums

hint: check out a certain thread in the strategy forum

yeap, and they are just sitting in their desks, doing nothing or lurking in the apolyton forums having fun while watching us wait for the patch



patches are like women: if you wait for one and it doesnt come then it was probably not worth it
so, forget about waiting and if it comes, be happy. if not, move on with your life

To me there are 2 posibilities, Civ3 patch is being worked on, or Firaxis is in some secretive crazy state of upheavel.

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

Don't tell anyone, but we just hired a bunch of guys from Texas who used to be top executives at some big-shot company down there... Elron, or something like that..

Dan

[FrantzX]

You're an evil, evil man Dan Magaha. Don't ever change.

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

/begin bad pun

I'd start to smell pretty rank in that case, wouldn't I?

/end bad pun

[Venge]

Ya, but think of the time you would save!
Instead of showering and changing, you could continue working on the next patch and get it released several hours earlier!
ROFL

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

Trust me when I tell you that *I'm* not the guy you want working overtime on the patch. The last time I really programmed C was in undergrad and about the most complex thing I could probably write on command would be akin to "Hello, World"..

Dan

[Venge]

Yes, I thought as much.
I just thought it was a funny thing to say, and hey, a lot of people here probably would seriously believe that you guys should not rest, sleep or change before your work is done.
LOL
Anyway, for what it is worth, I am one person that thinks Civ3 is great and have no problems with how you guys have gone about it all.
Just amazes me that you still come here for the thrashing you get everytime ...

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
Trust me when I tell you that *I'm* not the guy you want working overtime on the patch. The last time I really programmed C was in undergrad and about the most complex thing I could probably write on command would be akin to "Hello, World"..

Dan

I didn't even have to argue this time - not only in a public forum did Dan completely ignore my post but he neglected to say anything on the matter - usually a smart ass remark would have fit the profile, but nothing in this case. Here's probably why:

1) They've been working on the game, but aren't sure if we're going to like their changes - based on our feedback.

2) Have little or no intention on fixing the majority of the issues that have arrisen - and will eventually sell us a useless expansion pack or "Civ3 - Gold Edition" ten years from now at $29.95.

3) Have obviously given up on their fan community, and at this point just simply "do not care" anymore. That would explain the random snipings and smart ass remarks directed at the hardcore fans.

I applaud your proffesionalism!

Charles.