two months have passed, and we have no idea when next patch will be released

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

Jeez, Regis.. I just don't know which one to pick! Can I phone a friend?


Dan

[MarkG]

Charles, you are falling into the "libertarian trap"
just because Dan choose to not reply to your little rant (with arguments that have been posted lots of times in the past and have been answered) doesnt mean anything. look a bit over your own self and maybe you'll see some other things beyong dan not replying to you. maybe you'll see some stuff that Dan has posted somewhere else and hasnt posted here until know(now, that's not a hint for you Dan )...


now, in your post, beyond "accusing" Dan that all they care is money and that they have lost their "passion" and love for the game, you're saying two things:
- firaxis hasnt done anything to address complaints: wrong , they released a patch and are working on a second
- more information must be given: this has already been answered in the past lots of times. just refer to older posts by both Jeff and Dan.


now, if i was dan, i couldnt find a single reason to answer to an attack with either totally false statements or repetitions of answered questions...

[nato]

I would just like to say that I'd rather have the occassional snippets of info from Dan and others, instead of the aptly named "libertarian trap".

The info is obviously nowhere near as forthcoming as we would like ... but I would still rather have that than this strange stalking thing he and others developed ...

Which contributes more to the forum?

(btw, I'm in the not-super-happy with Civ3 camp, so this is not a "fanboy" statement)

[Venge]

I think it is quite good of them (representatives of Civ3) to stop by. I think we all need to respect their positions and if they have info that they are not supposed to let out just yet.
No amount of complaints will make them.
Besides, maybe he just wanted to stop by and drop us a line, and not defend himself and the company he works for.

[notyoueither]

Ever been stuck on the horns of a dilemma? Which do I choose? Hmmm.

Option 1. Charles is right, Firaxis has PR that makes Goebbels look like a genius. Lib and Yin and many others have been p*ssed off royally due to a lack of responsiveness from the developers of Civ3. Yeah, sure, they drop by once in a while to answer some question or other, but the majority of people are in the dark as to their intentions with the most important TBS title in years. Yech! Most important? You bettcha! How many who have devoted hours to this forum dispute this?

2. Charles and Lib and Yin are full of sh*t for expecting responses to them personnally. How the h*ll can an ego get that big? How do you expect any company to respond individually and at length to each and every fan all, or even some, of the time.

Unfortunately, Regis, the answer is both. Let's see, yup still says last updated Dec 28, 2001.

I'm still in the dark as to what the h*ll is going on with this game.

I have heard nothing about the short-comings and what may be done to address them.

Now, I would be counted a fan by many of the people on this forum, but even I can see how the lack of a single Firaxian being tasked with addressing the Yins and Libs and NYEs has done the company, and perhaps the game, some damage. Are all of the knives that are out going to be buried the minute a less than perfect patch or XP is released? I doubt it. The truth is that the game has lost the good-will of some very dedicated people. Some of them will never come back. Was this necessry? No.

The fact is that a spokesman of any talent at all would have easily kept the good-will of Yin and Lib. Then god help the people who spoke against the game with those two going at them.

Are we owed a response by Firaxis? Don't be an *ss. I buy a product, I don't like it. I don't buy another product made by that company. The last thing I ever expect is a letter of apology from the razor-blade makers at Gillette. *Oh sorry NYE, we regret that you knicked yourself, we shall endeavour to do better.* Get serious!

But on the other hand, maybe many people get knicked by Gillette blades. The people who run Gillette might find it in their wisdom to acknowledge a problem with a batch of blades and inform consumers what is being done about it. Unless of course they are Firestone.

Where the h*ll am I going with this? Oh yeah.

The truth is on both sides and neither. The critics have valid points. The company has a position to maintain.

I find it sad that the two cannot find a middle ground, and that Firaxis cannot hire a half-competent spokesman. I'd suggest ****gy, but he is rapidly disappearing, soon to be known as SaRA.

Salve

[Master2000]

It's nice to see some Firaxis post again.

Dan, have you been reading here alot?

[MarkG]

Originally posted by notyoueither
I have heard nothing about the short-comings and what may be done to address them.

hint for you too: see a certain thread in the strategy forum...

[Kiltdown]

I'm curious. Clearly people have different levels of expectation. Some seem to think every question by every poster needs to be answered by Firaxis. Others are pleased with any post at all.

Maybe this is a good question for a poll:

How many posts should we receive from Firaxis?
1) Reply to every posted question, especially if it's
2) Post every day on every outstanding question/concern
3) Post every few days on every outstanding question/concern
4) Post when something has changed or there's more information
5) Don't post so much - keep working on the product
6) Post? Post? Don't they make cereal or something?


I think the problem is that most people realistically want 4) but believe that should be pretty much the same as 2). This would be the workplace equivalent of a development manager who asked for a written status report every day. In my experience, those managers are shot by their own troops. "We're sorry sir, but all our weapons accidentally discharged simultaneously."

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
Jeez, Regis.. I just don't know which one to pick! Can I phone a friend?


Dan

Now thats the Dan I know! And as always greatly representing the company as it is well known - a joke.

A simple mature answer would have sufficed Dan - but you would rather dance. It's as Lib and Yin have been saying, the lower my expectations the better.

Charles.

[soxs]

I had a problem with the game I was playing and I told Firaxis about it. They asked for my save game and verified it my problem was a bug and this is the reply I got from them on the status (this email was received on Jan 10):

The bug was already fixed internally. We're working on a patch right now that will correct the problem, but when it'll be released is anyone's guess. Regrettably, there isn't a way for the problem not to occur with the current version. Hopefully v1.17f or whatever version we finally sign off will be available before the end of the month.

Jeff

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by MarkG
Charles, you are falling into the "libertarian trap"
just because Dan choose to not reply to your little rant (with arguments that have been posted lots of times in the past and have been answered) doesnt mean anything. look a bit over your own self and maybe you'll see some other things beyong dan not replying to you. maybe you'll see some stuff that Dan has posted somewhere else and hasnt posted here until know(now, that's not a hint for you Dan )...

Mark - you're falling into that sucky fan boy trap. First off, it wasn't a rant it was a mature and reasonable statement with a very elementary question that he could have easily answered. I've been everywhere and I haven't seen hide nor hair of any responses that bare any weight or helpfull information. I see a crap load of vague responses and smart ass remarks though.

now, in your post, beyond "accusing" Dan that all they care is money and that they have lost their "passion" and love for the game, you're saying two things:
- firaxis hasnt done anything to address complaints: wrong , they released a patch and are working on a second
- more information must be given: this has already been answered in the past lots of times. just refer to older posts by both Jeff and Dan.

Damb rights I'm saying that. I didn't want to believe Lib and Yin in the beginning and I often thought that they were being a little too hard on Firaxis and it's employees, but now I see the truth. The patch in which your referring to is MANDITORY considering the game had all those bugs and flaws that needed to be worked out, it's not a "give point" for them. As far as I'm concerned asside from the patches, I've heard nothing about future improvements or what they're working on right now. All we know for certain is that they're planning to release another patch and possibly an expansion pack. Big deal! WHAT ARE THEY WORKING ON????? Thats what we want to know. But the one thing that picks my butt about you Mark is that you defend them everytime, and you always say the same thing over and over - "Firaxis has responded and they have answered our questions" I don't think so my friend, if they answered our questions then why are we still asking them? And if you claim that other threads bare information or answers to our questions tell me where they are and I'll go check it out - until then I haven't seen anything, and my 100 or so emails to "askthecivteam@firaxis.com" have not been answered!

now, if i was dan, i couldnt find a single reason to answer to an attack with either totally false statements or repetitions of answered questions...

I'll tell you something, if I was representing a business and was being attacked I would attack back armed with information to shut the fans up! In this case they hide, run and dodge everything with little or no response - because they always have you guys to cover for them!
Charles.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by soxs
I had a problem with the game I was playing and I told Firaxis about it. They asked for my save game and verified it my problem was a bug and this is the reply I got from them on the status (this email was received on Jan 10):

The bug was already fixed internally. We're working on a patch right now that will correct the problem, but when it'll be released is anyone's guess. Regrettably, there isn't a way for the problem not to occur with the current version. Hopefully v1.17f or whatever version we finally sign off will be available before the end of the month.

Jeff

So your the one!

Charles.

[bahoo]

Originally posted by MarkG

- firaxis hasnt done anything to address complaints: wrong , they released a patch and are working on a second

Are you so sure? That's what the original poster asked, only to be followed by a bunch of snide remarks (and poor attempts at humor) by Firaxis. I don't see anything from Firaxis that would make me believe a patch is in the works.

- more information must be given: this has already been answered in the past lots of times. just refer to older posts by both Jeff and Dan.

Could you please point me to the thread with all the answers?

now, if i was dan, i couldnt find a single reason to answer to an attack with either totally false statements or repetitions of answered questions...

I don't know if I'd qualify "Is there going to be a second patch?" as an attack.

[jackshot]

Originally posted by CharlesUFarley
Damb rights I'm saying that. I didn't want to believe Lib and Yin in the beginning and I often thought that they were being a little too hard on Firaxis and it's employees, but now I see the truth. The patch in which your referring to is MANDITORY considering the game had all those bugs and flaws that needed to be worked out, it's not a "give point" for them. As far as I'm concerned asside from the patches, I've heard nothing about future improvements or what they're working on right now. All we know for certain is that they're planning to release another patch and possibly an expansion pack. Big deal! WHAT ARE THEY WORKING ON?????...
I'll tell you something, if I was representing a business and was being attacked I would attack back armed with information to shut the fans up! In this case they hide, run and dodge everything with little or no response - because they always have you guys to cover for them!
Charles.

Whoa, way of bounds Charles.

I understand where you are coming from, as I've said before Firaxis seems intent on maintaining options that have no benefit whatsoever to the consumer. This is bad, but on a scale much less than fraud or avarice.

At some point you have to respect their decisions on how they want to conduct themselves. Chopping their heads off every time they show up isn't conducive to anything, and criticising people for what they don't say is a bad feedback loop.

I've always had the philosophy that if it ain't on my hd or available to be on my hd, it doesn't exist. Get past the hype and expectations, you can only judge what is in front of you. Like an imperfect novel, it is what the author says it is until it says something else.

To their credit, they are here They are trying to support the game as best they can given their parameters. This is good, it is an above and beyond. You take the bad with the good. In reading the tea leaves on this business, I'm not so sure much of the forum criticism wouldn't be better spent elsewhere, but that's another topic. For now, we want them and they want us.

You want Firaxis to be candid, you also have to make a climate they can be candid in. Of course, OTOH giving up all your complaints is not a climate for candidness either - on that subject, I have to admit I just don't get the fanboys at all. Refering here to Kiltdown's rather meanspirited post:

1 - if complaints are heard, the game can get better. Admittedly the odds are small.

2 - if not, the game stays the way it is. Thought you liked it.

True markets require both sides of the transaction to be selfish. A consumer in a market situation is clearly in a position of demand or not get. So I don't get the downside, why piss on complaints?

It is called demand, isn't it?

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by MarkG
hint for you too: see a certain thread in the strategy forum...

OK, I'll bite. Which one?

I've seen many posts by Firaxians, but I am missing the connection.

Salve

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by jackshot


Whoa, way of bounds Charles.

I understand where you are coming from, as I've said before Firaxis seems intent on maintaining options that have no benefit whatsoever to the consumer. This is bad, but on a scale much less than fraud or avarice.

Agreed.

At some point you have to respect their decisions on how they want to conduct themselves. Chopping their heads off every time they show up isn't conducive to anything, and criticising people for what they don't say is a bad feedback loop.

Disagree. That was the first time I chopped a Firaxian head. Up until this agrivated point, and about a hundred un-answered emails - I've conducted myself in a very intelligent and mature manner with complete respect toward them. But there is only so much I can take, such as the plea of Lib and Yin. I can't speak for everyone but I'm being ignored without just cause (before my attitude kicked in that is) and Firaxis has displayed sarcasm and ignorance in regards to customer satisfaction issues. But I agree we won't achieve anything by yelling at them, however I feel much better when I do, takes the load off.

I've always had the philosophy that if it ain't on my hd or available to be on my hd, it doesn't exist. Get past the hype and expectations, you can only judge what is in front of you. Like an imperfect novel, it is what the author says it is until it says something else.

True, but I'm not going to throw away ten years of playing an excellent game to find out that it's now ready for burial because of some poorly made decisions, I'll see this one through to the end - I'll judge them by their next move, if it flops (IMO) then I will move on to something else, and I will definately never buy a Firaxis product again.

To their credit, they are here They are trying to support the game as best they can given their parameters. This is good, it is an above and beyond. You take the bad with the good. In reading the tea leaves on this business, I'm not so sure much of the forum criticism wouldn't be better spent elsewhere, but that's another topic. For now, we want them and they want us.

I completely disagree, I've seen no effort regarding the recent issues at hand. And they've displayed unproffesional attitudes in response to criticism. If you can show me evidence that shows just how supportive they really are, point me to the thread/link/post and I'll check it out, but so far zippo.

You want Firaxis to be candid, you also have to make a climate they can be candid in. Of course, OTOH giving up all your complaints is not a climate for candidness either - on that subject, I have to admit I just don't get the fanboys at all. Refering here to Kiltdown's rather meanspirited post:

1 - if complaints are heard, the game can get better. Admittedly the odds are small.

2 - if not, the game stays the way it is. Thought you liked it.

I agree that alot of fans, fanboys etc can be rabid and vicious when it comes to communicating with Firaxis, but I assure you that a large majority of this community is really just looking for some acknowledgement for their patience, and a little information as to what they are working on right now would also be nice. But the more they ignore the fans, the more agrivated the situation is going to be, I disagree with you saying that we need to provide a climate for them - I think it's the other way around, they need to provide one for us, they can even throw in terms if they like, as long as we are heard and something is getting accomplished.

True markets require both sides of the transaction to be selfish. A consumer in a market situation is clearly in a position of demand or not get. So I don't get the downside, why piss on complaints?

Precisely. I agree that we should be more tolerant and patient toward their business decisions, but on the same token they have to guide us and show us the way. They're the adults in this case (cringe) and we're the kids that need to be tought. I guess the point I'm trying to make is - they should set an example for us to follow!

Charles.

[Bilas]

Heh.... isn't it funny that Firaxis dosen't have time to answer some basic question us loyal Civer's ask but.... they do have time to come on and write when someone questions them on money ect....??? Yea I think we know that everyone wants to make money and then spend money... I make money at my job and I spend that money on games (civ3) ect.. A little good PR would go along way at Firaxis... OH and I know before someone says "there working on the patch leave them alone" and junk like that, they did have time to write some remarks to a person in this subject.

God I hope the next patch fixes the stacking problem.. and the naval and aircraft problem.. and.... well we will have to wait and see I guess!

[Cesa]

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
Jeez, Regis.. I just don't know which one to pick! Can I phone a friend?


Dan

Now that's the way to go! Impressive you can keep the spirit up with all this complaining

[habadacus]

And still it remains... nearly THREE months have passed, this game has been on my shelf for two, after having never finished a game, the tedium of the end game being unbearable. There has been no official acknowledgement of the problems I see, i.e. armies can't be transported, units can't be grouped, rediculous recursive city connection logic makes you wait for 2 minutes when you build a city in the late game, etc.,etc. it's all been said a thousand times before to apparently deaf ears at Firaxis. Instead the civ3 webpage is pure marketing pap. Dissapointment is doubled because I think to all of us Sid Meier and Firaxis were names associated with the highest calibur of quality, stability, and fun in PC games. Dissapointment is tripled because obviously some representatives of Firaxis are viewing our concerns, but can apparently only chime in with smarmy, smug little off topic replies, far worse to my mind than no reply at all. Dan - I couldn't give a rats a$$ less what your motivation to go to work in the morning is. All I want to know is:

-What is Firaxis doing to salvage this horrible incarnation of my all-time favorite PC game series (if anything)
-When can I expect to try to play this $50 paperweight I bought 3 months ago from a company I used to trust again
-When will user customization, fully in place in Civ 2, be available as promised in Civ 3

If there's no official word anyone from Firaxis can give, please keep the snotty one-liners to your collective selves.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by habadacus
Dan - I couldn't give a rats a$$ less what your motivation to go to work in the morning is.

-What is Firaxis doing to salvage this horrible incarnation of my all-time favorite PC game series (if anything)
-When can I expect to try to play this $50 paperweight I bought 3 months ago from a company I used to trust again
-When will user customization, fully in place in Civ 2, be available as promised in Civ 3

If there's no official word anyone from Firaxis can give, please keep the snotty one-liners to your collective selves.

Here here!

Charles.

[N. Machiavelli]

Originally posted by habadacus
And still it remains... nearly THREE months have passed, this game has been on my shelf for two, after having never finished a game, the tedium of the end game being unbearable. There has been no official acknowledgement of the problems I see, i.e. armies can't be transported, units can't be grouped, rediculous recursive city connection logic makes you wait for 2 minutes when you build a city in the late game, etc.,etc. it's all been said a thousand times before to apparently deaf ears at Firaxis. Instead the civ3 webpage is pure marketing pap. Dissapointment is doubled because I think to all of us Sid Meier and Firaxis were names associated with the highest calibur of quality, stability, and fun in PC games. Dissapointment is tripled because obviously some representatives of Firaxis are viewing our concerns, but can apparently only chime in with smarmy, smug little off topic replies, far worse to my mind than no reply at all. Dan - I couldn't give a rats a$$ less what your motivation to go to work in the morning is. All I want to know is:

-What is Firaxis doing to salvage this horrible incarnation of my all-time favorite PC game series (if anything)
-When can I expect to try to play this $50 paperweight I bought 3 months ago from a company I used to trust again
-When will user customization, fully in place in Civ 2, be available as promised in Civ 3

If there's no official word anyone from Firaxis can give, please keep the snotty one-liners to your collective selves.

Bravo, good sir.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by CharlesUFarley
Mark - you're falling into that sucky fan boy trap. First off, it wasn't a rant it was a mature and reasonable statement with a very elementary question that he could have easily answered.

reasonable statements are usually far from being totally false ("they havent done anything")

I've been everywhere and I haven't seen hide nor hair of any responses that bare any weight or helpfull information.

look harder

I see a crap load of vague responses and smart ass remarks though.

another mature statement i suppose?

The patch in which your referring to is MANDITORY considering the game had all those bugs and flaws that needed to be worked out, it's not a "give point" for them.

glad you NOW agree that they HAVE and ARE doing something(even if you see it is a mandatory)

if they answered our questions then why are we still asking them?

cause you dont like the answer?

[MarkG]

Originally posted by notyoueither
OK, I'll bite. Which one?

I've seen many posts by Firaxians, but I am missing the connection.

second hint: it's got "firaxis" on it's title

[Dis]

I don't feel like reading this entire thread.

is there a date on a new patch or not?

[MarkG]

Originally posted by bahoo
Are you so sure?

Yeap

That's what the original poster asked, only to be followed by a bunch of snide remarks (and poor attempts at humor) by Firaxis.

the remarks(if you noticed), where not directed to the original post...

Could you please point me to the thread with all the answers?

either follow the previously posted hints and/or check out the last chat transcript

I don't know if I'd qualify "Is there going to be a second patch?" as an attack.

the comment for CharlesUFarley's post, not the original question

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Dissident
is there a date on a new patch or not?

there isnt an announced date. things will probably go as with the first patch, e.g. a date will be announced a 4-5 days before

[MarkG]

here, i've changed my sig for you guys

[Unregistered]

Some general game buying advice, particularly for people who need to watch their blood pressure.

Never buy a game until at least six months after it is released. The general reason for this is the current nature of the computer gaming industry. The specifics of that I will leave as an exercise for the student.

This leads to several immediate benefits. At that point, 90% of the games distributed today will have had their last production patch released, with the obvious benefits that brings. You will also have a good idea if the game is worth spending the money on from fan websites & activity on fora like these. In many cases the price will have already begun to drop - which, imo, is a leading indicator on the 'quality' of the game. By this time you will also have a good indication on things such as expansion packs & sequels, and can use that info in your decision.

Most of the time I stick to this rule. Most of the time when I don't, I end up regretting it.

I didn't stick to this rule for the current incarnation of civ. While I don't regret it, I will probably take a break from playing it after I finish my current (and really first 'real' attempt) game. And if my past history is anything to go by, I probably won't pick it up again. I will probably stick to this rule for the next time around.

Having said all that, I'll also say that I got my $50 worth.

Cheers,


PS Some people on these fora need to seriously re-examine the priorities in their lives. They're investing way too much time & energy in a game. Do some volunteer work. Start walking the dog once a day. Go back to school. Learn photography. Do something that doesn't involve a computer. Have a conversation with a good friend you haven't talked to in a while. Life is too bloody short to waste time in this manner. And it's bad for your health.

[Santa Cruz Tim]

Hmmm....
The real question is this: why hasn't the official Civ 3 website been updated in over a month? I think Apolyton is a great site. It's my first source for Civ strategy, tournament games, war stories, etc. It's great for that. BUT IT SHOULDN"T BE MY FIRST SOURCE FOR NEWS FROM FIRAXIS. If Dan et all choose to post to these forums, more power to them, it's greatly appreciated, but there should absolutely never be more pertinent information about the game from Firaxis here than there is on the official site.

While the game was approaching release, the website was updated very frequently: Civ Trivia, Civ of the Week, Ask the Civ Team. Has that person been fired? I found those features to be quite entertaining and well-written. It just seems to me that if they were able to update the site that frequently and verbosely prior to release, they should at least be able to post a little weekly update on the official site saying: "Hi, we're still here, we're aware of your concerns, customer satisfaction is our goal, and we value your input." Follow this with a general idea of the direction you're going and most people would be happy.


-Tim

[Badbonez]

Never buy a game until at least six months after it is released. The general reason for this is the current nature of the computer gaming industry. The specifics of that I will leave as an exercise for the student.

Six months!???!! I've seen game companies that have folded in less than 6 months after releasing a game. I don't think having to wait that long is reasonable.

But as someone pointed out, this is a game and it's the game Firaxis made. So learn their rules, have fun, (and exploit them shamelessly) or don't play.

The true SUCKY thing about that NOT PLAYING bit is that there are no other good strategy games out now. So if you don't play this, what do you play? I bought Rising Sun Gold for $10, but it's so damn slow, the graphics are only OK and the AI is sucky, plus no MP mode. And I like some RTS games, but my Yuri's Revenge disk is busted.

I'm going back to Counter-Strike.