two months have passed, and we have no idea when next patch will be released

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

Originally posted by Santa Cruz Tim
Has that person been fired?

No, but his role in the company has changed.

Those features and updates were designed to support the launch of the game. I am planning on trying to vamp out the FAQ as much as possible and if the lawyers give us the green light, I think we're leaning towards devoting some space to mods and editing tutorials, etc.

Obviously when there are patches released we'll update the site, and I do fansite maintenance every week or so, but otherwise there really isn't much to report.

Dan

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Unregistered
PS Some people on these fora need to seriously re-examine the priorities in their lives. They're investing way too much time & energy in a game. Do some volunteer work. Start walking the dog once a day. Go back to school. Learn photography. Do something that doesn't involve a computer. Have a conversation with a good friend you haven't talked to in a while. Life is too bloody short to waste time in this manner. And it's bad for your health.

What kind of an image to you get when you see all these people posting email in the forums - a bunch of people who have no lives, and no priorities? You better take your own advice and get out more, because the internet has no effect on my already busy life nor will it be a priority - don't presume things of people you don't even know.

Charles.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by MarkG
reasonable statements are usually far from being totally false ("they havent done anything")

I didn't say they haven't done anything, I said they haven't told us what they are working on. And when they do give us the occasional and rarely seen updates they should be alot easier to find and more public, so that I don't have to weave through every single thread on your board to find them. And as it stands now, I've seen nothing but a bunch of babble about a second patch - no details - we want details.

look harder

Create a forum for them to update us in, and suggest that they use it. Rather than answering 'random' questions in off-topic threads. Because I still haven't found anything worthy of the 'usefull' classification.

another mature statement i suppose?

No more than Dan's I suppose.

glad you NOW agree that they HAVE and ARE doing something(even if you see it is a mandatory)

Yeah? what? Can you tell me what the patch will include? Becuase that's all that matters, otherwise how do we know what to expect or where to focus our suggestions.

cause you dont like the answer?

Bingo!

Charles.

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by CharlesUFarley


What kind of an image to you get when you see all these people posting email in the forums - a bunch of people who have no lives, and no priorities? You better take your own advice and get out more, because the internet has no effect on my already busy life nor will it be a priority - don't presume things of people you don't even know.

Charles.

I didn't, & I don't. But if the shoe fits....

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS


No, but his role in the company has changed.

Those features and updates were designed to support the launch of the game. I am planning on trying to vamp out the FAQ as much as possible and if the lawyers give us the green light, I think we're leaning towards devoting some space to mods and editing tutorials, etc.

Obviously when there are patches released we'll update the site, and I do fansite maintenance every week or so, but otherwise there really isn't much to report.

Dan

Okay Dan, give me a chance this time - I am going to try this as mature and polite as possible - and hopefully you will understand my question and the importance of it. We all know that the "team" is working on a new patch, we all know that if the patching and sales go well that you guys will eventually give us an XP or Civ3Gold, we know this. But what specific features and changes has the team cemented for implimentation at this point in time? And if you can't tell me, help me understand why - please explain.

Thank you.

Charles.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Unregistered


I didn't, & I don't. But if the shoe fits....

And you would be the shoe salesman right?



Charles.

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

Charles,

While I appreciate the restraint and politeness with which you've crafted your latest message to me (and I'm being completely sincere here), I cannot and will not discuss the contents of what may or may not be in any forthcoming patches. It's neither my responsibility nor my right to do so.

When and if the time comes that a patch is ready and Jeff is ready to post the readme, it'll be posted here and on Civ3.com, among other places.

Dan

[jackshot]

Originally posted by CharlesUFarley
Disagree. That was the first time I chopped a Firaxian head. Up until this agrivated point, and about a hundred un-answered emails - I've conducted myself in a very intelligent and mature manner with complete respect toward them. But there is only so much I can take, such as the plea of Lib and Yin. I can't speak for everyone but I'm being ignored without just cause (before my attitude kicked in that is) and Firaxis has displayed sarcasm and ignorance in regards to customer satisfaction issues. But I agree we won't achieve anything by yelling at them, however I feel much better when I do, takes the load off.

Yea, right. I don't mean to single you out, I've just seen it so many times. You got someone from the company to respond in your thread and you open up with both barrels. First of all, you missed him, and second of all, how many more shots do you expect to get?

That's why I give them credit for even being here, again because of the general situation, not because of you in particular. We didn't get many snide comments from Activision, did we?

Precisely. I agree that we should be more tolerant and patient toward their business decisions, but on the same token they have to guide us and show us the way. They're the adults in this case (cringe) and we're the kids that need to be tought. I guess the point I'm trying to make is - they should set an example for us to follow!

Charles.

Grow up.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by jackshot


Yea, right. I don't mean to single you out, I've just seen it so many times. You got someone from the company to respond in your thread and you open up with both barrels. First of all, you missed him, and second of all, how many more shots do you expect to get?

If it missed, and there was no damage done, then what are you crying about?

That's why I give them credit for even being here, again because of the general situation, not because of you in particular. We didn't get many snide comments from Activision, did we?

Who cares.

Grow up.

Must have hit a soft spot.

Charles.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
Charles,

While I appreciate the restraint and politeness with which you've crafted your latest message to me (and I'm being completely sincere here), I cannot and will not discuss the contents of what may or may not be in any forthcoming patches. It's neither my responsibility nor my right to do so.

When and if the time comes that a patch is ready and Jeff is ready to post the readme, it'll be posted here and on Civ3.com, among other places.

Dan

Okay, I appreciate your sincerety and honesty. I completely understand you have rules that you have to follow. It's just too bad that the release of development progress cannot be authorized to give us some hope or glimpse of what we are to expect - for the better ofcoarse. I have one last question - very simple - are there any intentions of improvement beyond this next patch - like an expansion pack or Civ3gold - is it even on the horizon? I'll take your yes as a possability, not a definate.

Charles.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by MarkG
second hint: it's got "firaxis" on it's title

My God!

Are you referring to *Inquiry for Firaxis personnel *?

Is that the thread where the future plans for Civ3 were revealed to us all?

I appreciate that Jeff took a few minutes to respond, but Holy Sheeeit. I learned more about their plans from the fellow who relayed the information from an email sent to him that there is indeed a second patch being worked on. But, even then, I'm not sure because it can be made up. OK. I do know they have play testers. Testers for what? A patch? An XP? Civ4?

Don't worry Mark (as if you would), I'm not going to go Lib on you and your boards, but I can see how many reasonable people have been driven to distraction by the lack of real, valuable information.

HINT. If they can say it in an email, and they can say it on these (and other boards) why can't they say it on their web site? Then we would all have a common reference, and people asking certain questions could be referred there.

Maybe I could make a suggestion. Create a thread in General. Top it. Put the meaningful info posted by Firaxians there. Delete any non-Firaxian noise (pro or con). At least then we could all go to at least one place on the internet for the info that has been provided and it would not get lost in the howling of the wind.

Salve

[yin26]

Wow. This guy just might finally have a clue ...!

Peace

[notyoueither]

[Innocent Small Child's Voice]
Theeyyyy'rrre Baaaackk.

Peace

[MarkG]

Originally posted by CharlesUFarley
I didn't say they haven't done anything

Originally posted by CharlesUFarley
If I received as many complaints as Firaxis has regarding customer/product disatisfaction and I did nothing about it - I'd be FIRED.

Bingo!

please tell me how you call someone who asks a question, gets an answer, and then asks again demanding a different answer

[Grumbold]

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
No, but his role in the company has changed.

Those features and updates were designed to support the launch of the game. I am planning on trying to vamp out the FAQ as much as possible and if the lawyers give us the green light, I think we're leaning towards devoting some space to mods and editing tutorials, etc.

Obviously when there are patches released we'll update the site, and I do fansite maintenance every week or so, but otherwise there really isn't much to report.

Dan

I hope you get the go-ahead soon, Dan. It sends out a pretty negative message if it appears that the developers can't be bothered to update their own website. If there's nothing to feature in the news section at least having regular 'Ask the Civ Team' updates gives the impression that there are plenty of fans still playing and Firaxians willing to take an hour or two out of their friday afternoon schedule to assist them.

[Kiltdown]

But it still frustrates me. (I know, I know, who cares??!?) Sometimes its because the posters haven't spent enough time out of the nest yet. A lot of times people are old enough to know better.

1) Programmers are not permitted to say official things about anything a company is going to do. They *might* get away with announcing that the company is cool.

2) Companies will not commit to release contents if they aren't certain they can deliver. Even then, sometimes they end up being wrong. They do everything they "can" to avoid disappointing any of their customers. Sometimes they still do, even intentionally, because they are a business.

3) Businesses can't survive without customers AND profits. Making customers happy sometimes involves reducing profits, putting company existance at risk. Trying to stay afloat sometimes invovles cutting corners, putting customer relationships at risk. The real world rarely allows a company to maximise both customer satisfaction and profit. Sometimes there's not enough of either available and a company folds.

4) Small young companies in particular are filled with people who generally bust their butts to make something they hope someone else will enjoy. Without their sacrifices, consumers would not see their products. IMHO, they deserve both reward and respect. At a minimum they deserve politeness. They don't deserve whining, egomaniacal children.

5) I haven't met a piece of software I haven't felt I could improve dramatically, and I never expect to. Even with the best design process, sometimes one can't see the best "next thing" until one finishes. This tends to make for delay after delay. Eventually product must be shipped. Eventually developers have to go onto the next thing. There's always a bigger "to-do" or "could-do" list than there is time to complete it.


If you've got this far, you're probably more bored right now than I am! Thanks for listening. :-)

[FrantzX]

Hey Dan! How many times do you thing you'll have to post the same thing on the forum before people stop asking the same damn question?

[Bilas]

Originally posted by Grumbold


I hope you get the go-ahead soon, Dan. It sends out a pretty negative message if it appears that the developers can't be bothered to update their own website. If there's nothing to feature in the news section at least having regular 'Ask the Civ Team' updates gives the impression that there are plenty of fans still playing and Firaxians willing to take an hour or two out of their friday afternoon schedule to assist them.

I could not agree with you more! Just a few notes from the devs, Updates ect..
and please don't say once again that they have no time in there busy schedule to say a few words and do some updating on there released game that we all bought! I am sure they are working to get the patch out, MP, EX-Pack, but a little PR would go a long way in calming everyone down. It seems to me that they are taking the approach of "This is the way it is we don't talk and we are not going to change!" Hmm Wan't the game released already and shouldn't tey talk about there product and it's future?

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by MarkG




please tell me how you call someone who asks a question, gets an answer, and then asks again demanding a different answer

Simple, either the question wasn't answered to begin with, or the answer had nothing to do with the question - in this case vague snide remarks. But Dan said he doesn't have the authority to answer those questions, and I'm pretty sure it gets even more anal as we climb higher on the Firaxis heirarchy, so there's no point in asking anymore. I'll just have to treat Firaxis game development like Area-51 in the nevada desert.

Charles.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Kiltdown
3) Businesses can't survive without customers AND profits. Making customers happy sometimes involves reducing profits, putting company existance at risk. Trying to stay afloat sometimes invovles cutting corners, putting customer relationships at risk. The real world rarely allows a company to maximise both customer satisfaction and profit. Sometimes there's not enough of either available and a company folds.

4) Small young companies in particular are filled with people who generally bust their butts to make something they hope someone else will enjoy. Without their sacrifices, consumers would not see their products. IMHO, they deserve both reward and respect. At a minimum they deserve politeness. They don't deserve whining, egomaniacal children.

5) I haven't met a piece of software I haven't felt I could improve dramatically, and I never expect to. Even with the best design process, sometimes one can't see the best "next thing" until one finishes. This tends to make for delay after delay. Eventually product must be shipped. Eventually developers have to go onto the next thing. There's always a bigger "to-do" or "could-do" list than there is time to complete it.


If you've got this far, you're probably more bored right now than I am! Thanks for listening. :-)

Kiltdown - we all know what it's like on the business end of things, I'm sure at one time or another everyone's dealt with customers and handled complaints in a business. I agree that in business there are often sarcrifices - sometimes sacrifices that will upset the consumers, and that it must be done to acheive a profitable goal.

But I think your avoiding the point, thousands of fans still have no idea whats going on other than 'a patch is in the making'. We still have no idea where our effots and suggestions are being spent and devoted or even if they are being used at all. We still have no idea what their future plans for Civ3 are, which I feel is the main frustration among fellow fans. As I said to Dan before, we too are concerned with the future of Civilization (TM) why shouldn't we raise a little concern every now and then. Especially if we feel that it's not being taken care of.

Charles.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Bilas


I could not agree with you more! Just a few notes from the devs, Updates ect..
and please don't say once again that they have no time in there busy schedule to say a few words and do some updating on there released game that we all bought! I am sure they are working to get the patch out, MP, EX-Pack, but a little PR would go a long way in calming everyone down. It seems to me that they are taking the approach of "This is the way it is we don't talk and we are not going to change!" Hmm Wan't the game released already and shouldn't tey talk about there product and it's future?

Dan doesn't have the authority to release information, you'll have to go higher up on the chain of command - try Jeff or even Sid (cough) like that'll ever happen, but you can try. Good luck Bilas.

Charles.

[jackshot]

Originally posted by Kiltdown
But it still frustrates me. (I know, I know, who cares??!?) Sometimes its because the posters haven't spent enough time out of the nest yet. A lot of times people are old enough to know better.

Now you're the one who should grow up. Obviously you are working from a too-traditional POV. It is the way the world is, customers are a herd of cats, you can't expect them to be policed by themselves. Firaxis (and Infogrames as well, where are they?) should know, or have a reasonable expectation, what will happen when they release a product. And these expectations are part of the business climate for that release.

They can ostrich it, as they have, and that strategy has downsides, as we have seen. What they should have done is been up front about their plans all along - plenty of companies release game and say an editor or something will be included later, don't hand me this stuff. Just from a business POV, it very curious they did not do this - makes me think the whole arrangement is dysfunctional somehow - and although Firaxis may bring some deficiencies to the table, I suspect there is more here than meets the eye. Non-market forces.

But this is also so much water under the bridge at this point. Once again, the world is how the world is. My point to CharlesUFarley is that given what they have done so far, Firaxis cannot help themselves with individual commitments of time to Charles or anyone else with a loud voice. Their appearances here tell us they have not packed it in, that is all the message they need.

But in the end, all roads lead to an editor. It fixes everything, people who like the game still have the game, those that don't get to play with variables and set ups. It gets buzz going for xpacks or whatever they would like to do. Obviously they don't want to just shift eveyone from complaining about the lacking editor to complaining about the buggy editor - but it's been three months now developing what should have already been halfway built in the design process. Not to rush them, but the clock is starting to tick. People get bored, attention dissipates. At this point in their development they can't even say an editor will be released - firm, hardcore commitment to this product is the dog that hasn't barked the entire history of the project.

You deal with the public well, you build up good will. This goodwill can buy you chits, get out of jail free cards. Firaxis has used a chit. As things are today, their next release will have to be a what this was not, a polished and innovative design (without a civ franchise to provide the foundation), or they will be out of business. And that can a thin line to hang mortgages on. It does not have to be this way. They can improve this title and buy back the chit, because once people are satisfied the complaining is so many deleted threads.

Such an obvious path must have a very curious roadblock, is all I can say.

1) Programmers are not permitted to say official things about anything a company is going to do. They *might* get away with announcing that the company is cool.

Planning. They know the parameters. Make it work, it's free.

2) Companies will not commit to release contents if they aren't certain they can deliver. Even then, sometimes they end up being wrong. They do everything they "can" to avoid disappointing any of their customers. Sometimes they still do, even intentionally, because they are a business.

They aren't certain they can make an editor for their game in three months? Curious.

3) Businesses can't survive without customers AND profits. Making customers happy sometimes involves reducing profits, putting company existance at risk. Trying to stay afloat sometimes invovles cutting corners, putting customer relationships at risk. The real world rarely allows a company to maximise both customer satisfaction and profit. Sometimes there's not enough of either available and a company folds.

Yes, yes, this was all true on day 1 of their project. What did anyone realistically intend to do about it?

4) Small young companies in particular are filled with people who generally bust their butts to make something they hope someone else will enjoy. Without their sacrifices, consumers would not see their products. IMHO, they deserve both reward and respect. At a minimum they deserve politeness. They don't deserve whining, egomaniacal children.

Exactly. Why I got into this thread in the first place. But no public forum can be expected to restrain itself, companies need hard skins. There are ways to make the whiners work for you, but once again, all roads lead to the product.

5) I haven't met a piece of software I haven't felt I could improve dramatically, and I never expect to. Even with the best design process, sometimes one can't see the best "next thing" until one finishes. This tends to make for delay after delay. Eventually product must be shipped. Eventually developers have to go onto the next thing. There's always a bigger "to-do" or "could-do" list than there is time to complete it.

Solve this problem and you'll make a mint selling games. Don't solve it and you won't.

[Kiltdown]

Originally posted by CharlesUFarley


Kiltdown - we all know what it's like on the business end of things, I'm sure at one time or another everyone's dealt with customers and handled complaints in a business. I agree that in business there are often sarcrifices - sometimes sacrifices that will upset the consumers, and that it must be done to acheive a profitable goal.

But I think your avoiding the point, thousands of fans still have no idea whats going on other than 'a patch is in the making'. We still have no idea where our effots and suggestions are being spent and devoted or even if they are being used at all. We still have no idea what their future plans for Civ3 are, which I feel is the main frustration among fellow fans. As I said to Dan before, we too are concerned with the future of Civilization (TM) why shouldn't we raise a little concern every now and then. Especially if we feel that it's not being taken care of.

Charles.

You actually know a lot Charles. :-)

You know that your suggestions are being read by Firaxis.
You know that there will be a patch.
You know the patch won't fix everything or enhance everything.
You know that you can either play it as it is for now, or wait until the patch comes out before deciding whether to play it again. You can choose to despise them more then, too, if the patch warrants it in your mind. ;-)

I'm sure Firaxis has a target, both in terms of release date and contents. That doesn't actually mean they KNOW it will be released then, or with those contents. All they may know is that they can't release until all outstanding real bugs (however they define that) have been fixed (to avoid the need for a 1.18), and that they will squeeze in whatever enhancements they can prove won't destabilize the 1.17 release.

Would you rather have them say "we plan to release it Feb 13th with the following changes" and then not deliver on the date, or with those changes? My experience on boards like this is that customers tend to go ballistic over missed dates and undelivered content. What's yours?

[jackshot]

Originally posted by Kiltdown

Would you rather have them say "we plan to release it Feb 13th with the following changes" and then not deliver on the date, or with those changes? My experience on boards like this is that customers tend to go ballistic over missed dates and undelivered content. What's yours?

No, I expect them to say an editor WILL be released. That's it. That they can't is curious.

[Kiltdown]

Originally posted by jackshot


No, I expect them to say an editor WILL be released. That's it. That they can't is curious.

Do you mean a "new" editor? One with different features? You can change units, improvements, maps, etc. right now can't you? I've been able to. If I were Firaxian, I wouldn't know how to respond to your request!

[MarkG]

Originally posted by jackshot
No, I expect them to say an editor WILL be released. That's it. That they can't is curious.

actually, that has already be done....

[jackshot]

Originally posted by Kiltdown


Do you mean a "new" editor? One with different features? You can change units, improvements, maps, etc. right now can't you? I've been able to. If I were Firaxian, I wouldn't know how to respond to your request!

With quality assurance, kiltdown. It's a simple game.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by MarkG
actually, that has already be done....

(ahem) point me to the thread Mark...

Charles.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Kiltdown

You actually know a lot Charles. :-)

You know that your suggestions are being read by Firaxis.

yes.

You know that there will be a patch.

yes.

You know the patch won't fix everything or enhance everything.

I know nothing about the patch, or it's contents - do you? Point me to the thread, because I haven't seen a single detail.

You know that you can either play it as it is for now, or wait until
the patch comes out before deciding whether to play it again. You can choose to despise them more then, too, if the patch warrants it in your mind. ;-)

Obviously.

I'm sure Firaxis has a target, both in terms of release date and contents. That doesn't actually mean they KNOW it will be released then, or with those contents. All they may know is that they can't release until all outstanding real bugs (however they define that) have been fixed (to avoid the need for a 1.18), and that they will squeeze in whatever enhancements they can prove won't destabilize the 1.17 release.

Agreed. But the consumer still (IMO) deserves to know "WHAT" is being developed. We know there is a patch coming, but "WHAT" will be in it? Thats the point.

Would you rather have them say "we plan to release it Feb 13th with the following changes" and then not deliver on the date, or with those changes? My experience on boards like this is that customers tend to go ballistic over missed dates and undelivered content. What's yours?

Have you been talking to someone else about "dates" and "timetables" because I don't remember saying anything about dates in any of my posts! Frankly, I don't care when they release it - I just want to know "WHAT" they are releasing.

Consumer: What are you guys working on now?

Firaxis Rep: A patch.

Consumer: What will be in the patch?

Firaxis Rep: Stuff.

Consumer: We know that! But WHAT will it contain?

Firaxis Rep: Helpfull stuff.

Consumer: Look your being unreasonable, we all know the patch will help, but for the last time - WHATS IN THE PATCH?

Firaxis Rep: Gee Regis can I phone a friend.

Consumer: C'mon whats in the patch?

Firaxis Rep: No comment.



Charles.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Kiltdown


Do you mean a "new" editor? One with different features? You can change units, improvements, maps, etc. right now can't you? I've been able to. If I were Firaxian, I wouldn't know how to respond to your request!

You know exactly what we're talking about, unless you've been snoozing through all these posts! We're asking for an editor with complete and full customization of the following; Units, Improvements, Maps, Wonders, Terrain tiles, events, sounds and that means altering the animations, graphics and statistics of each and every facet in the game - Civ2 is an excellent example.

And with all that we should finally be able to do something that you can't do right now, is build a proper scenario.

Charles.