Provinces

[Shadowstrike]

There could be a shift from a city-based system (Civ2) to a province based system (Civ3?) This would also simplify micromanagement. The entire province could build a collective item, share trade routes and unit support and in time, generate local malitia to defend itself (like Imperialism)

Now, this wouldn't destroy the system of cities entirely. You would still build cities, and the city radius would still count, but everything else is shared. There should also be the option of staking out your own provincial boundaries.

A final point. Provinces should have limits to how many cities they can have. Or else, some insane micromanagement maniac could ICS and lump his/her entire empire into a single province and generate massive amounts of resources.

[phunny pharmer]

Umm...too bad you couldn't have posted this topic a few hours earlier. I just finished writing a long post about it in one of the other sections! =

[UltraSonix]

I don't see how micromanagement could be reduced if cities still need to be built. Maybe what is being suggested is that when an improvement is built, it is built in all towns in the province? But wouldn't this make something take ages to build?

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards...

[gemini]

Provinces could be an interesting idea. You could maybe divide your empire into different provinces so your government could have certain bonuses. The risk could be that over time some provinces may think they are unique and want to break away into different countries. It could lead to civil war amongst your former country members. Kinda interesting. Be like the war of independence. This has happened throughout history. There is even several examples in the real world today in our modern age of provinces that want to seperate(Quebec from Canada and the former Yugoslavia). Or maybe a better idea is if you take over another countries cities they are added to your empire as another province. After maybe you would have to lower thier taxes or something else to keep this province happy to stay with your empire or something. Or you may have to keep extra units in cities to keep control over the newly added populace until they are more "Romanized".

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Gemini
[This message has been edited by gemini (edited July 21, 2000).]

[Az]

I've posted some ideas about provinces but I don't seem to remember where ... anyway

I think provinces and the city/town/village should be integrated ideas . the city is the capital of the county with villages and towns . a few counties create a state/province . a state/province is the unit that should have the ability to rebel.


Dalgetti

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Prepare to Land !

[The diplomat]

Why not take the "province" idea even further?

Instead of pooling ressources in each province, I think all ressources produced by all your cities should be pooled together on an empire level. I think this would be simpler than provinces.
The player would have a "budget" screen showing the amount of each type of ressource being produced from cities, received from trade, received from tribute, etc and the grand total.
Then there would be the amount of each type of ressource being spent due to support, buildinc cost, maintenance cost etc and the grand total.
Last, the screen should show the net amount (ie surplus or deficit) and the reserves. A surplus would add resources to the reserves, a deficit would deduct from the reserves. Only when the reserves reached zero would units get disbanded.

The idea would eliminate the need to micromanage ressource for each city, since it would be done on an empire level.

Cities would still be very important as they are the center of population and they produce everything.
Each city would still have its own build queue but the ressources to produce the city improvements would come from the national pool instead of each city.

The new Space empires 4 uses this system. Download the demo to see exactly what I am talking about.

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No permanent enemies, no permanent friends.
[This message has been edited by The diplomat (edited July 23, 2000).]

[Par4]

I'm a big fan of SEIV but what would we use for the space ports??

If we just do it with an improvement or something blockades wouldn't work or intercepting trade routes.

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King Par4!!

There is no spoon
-The Matrix
Let's kick it up a notch!!
-Emeril Lagasse
Fresh Soy makes Tofu so silky
-Ming Tsai

[UltraSonix]

The idea sounds viable (though it will be leaving the traditions of civ1/civ2/SMAC behind). But I think the national pool thing should instead be done continent by continent until you discover a certain tech level (flight or something). This is because it's not easy for cities on different continents to share resources. So it's sort of like provinces, just it'll be continents, and only for a while.

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards...

[Tiberius]

Diplomat, I agree that Civ3 need to be less city-centric and more civ-centric than Civ2, but I'm not sure that we have to make everything globally.

quote: Each city would still have its own build queue but the ressources to produce the city improvements would come from the national pool instead of each city.

Centralizing this way all shields production on empire level would be awesome for micromanage, but what would be the (production) difference between two cities, one with coal and iron mines, factory, hydro-plant and whatsoever and the other based almost exclusively on agriculture, with very little industrial production. How fast would produce the two city a tank division, for example?

Once again, I'm not against any proposal which could reduce micromanagement and increase the fun of the game, but be careful, keep it realistic.

[The diplomat]

quote: Originally posted by Par4 on 07-24-2000 01:49 AM what would we use for the space ports??

What about the marketplace?

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius on 07-24-2000 02:08 AM Centralizing this way all shields production on empire level would be awesome for micromanage, but what would be the (production) difference between two cities, one with coal and iron mines, factory, hydro-plant and whatsoever and the other based almost exclusively on agriculture, with very little industrial production. How fast would produce the two city a tank division, for example?

Are you asking whether a city producing a lot of shields would produce more tanks than an agricultural city?
Ressources only determine whether a city can build something in the first place, not how fast the item is built. The agricultural city would be able to build tanks if the empire has enough ressources for tanks. However the agricultural city would not produce tanks as fast as the industrial city because it lacks the industrial facilities!
In other words, shields are not pooled nationally because shields are not ressources, they represent the industrial capacity of a city. By ressources I mean wood, stone, iron, etc, that are the materials needed to make city improvements and such. Those ressources are pooled nationally!

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No permanent enemies, no permanent friends.

[This message has been edited by The diplomat (edited July 24, 2000).]

[Napoleon I]

One major objection that I would have to an empire level pooling of resources is that such a system would completely upset the current system of resource management. If the production of items depends on a score of natural resources such as wood, coal, iron, etc. then the number of variables that the AI will need to handle to manage its empire would be increased tremendously. As of Civ2 and SMAC the game only has 3 basic resources, food, shields and trade. If you want to keep these three and add a score of other variables that will determine the production of units, it could really create micromanagement havoc. The complexity of the resulting game will be so high that most of the casual players will probably be discouraged from playing it. Therefore I don't think that concepts that have worked in the past such as the three resource system should be upset to a point where they would establish a completely new system of gameplay.

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Napoleon I

[Shadowstrike]

arrrrrggggggghhhhh! another [double post]
[This message has been edited by Shadowstrike (edited July 24, 2000).]

[Shadowstrike]

I agree with Napoleon. The idea of the province system was to reduce micromanagement, by moving resource management to a provincial level (serving roughly the same purpose as reducing the number of cities)
Anyhow, empire wide resource sharing can cause problems. A city sharing resources with another halfway around the globe with out railroads is difficult at best. There should be a limit of cities inside the provice and a size limit. Eith that or cities further away from the "capitial" of the province should produce less resources to be pooled.

[The diplomat]

We can keep civ2's ressource system of just 3 items: food, shields, trade. But if you pool these 3 ressources nationally, you will dramatically reduce micromanagement. I know this for a fact from playing SE4. It too only has 3 ressources and pools them on an empire level. It really improves micromanagement wonderfully!

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No permanent enemies, no permanent friends.

[phunny pharmer]

Three resources is a good number. I recomend that Firaxis either keep the three resouce system, or make a new system of at least twenty.

A system that has twenty different resources is much more realistic. However, unit costs would be much more complex, and development would be much harder for both human and (of course) computer players. However, more resources could add much more realism to the game.

I'll play it any way it comes. =

[Christantine The Great]

I have a formula...

3 to 5 cities = Provence x 4 = Region times X Regions = Empire

A city would be essentially the same.

A Provence would be what has been said above.

A Region would be a tool for administering extreamly large empire. It should be used to administer oversees provences or to keep provences with almost equal production ratings to work in harmony to benifit your empire. I do not know programing so I do not know how to tell the AI this so someone with experience in that field please tell me if it is possible.

An Empire is the same.

Tell me what you think

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"Adorare Christantine!!!"
Republican Decree #1

[Par4]

IDIOT NETSCAPE YOU JUST HAVE TO CRASH WHILE THE YOU ARE SENDING INFO WARNING 4 SECONDS BEFORE THE POST UPLOADS DON'T YOU DON'T YOU DON'T YOU DON'T YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Ok so I'll do it over

2-5 cities merge into a province> all provinces in 1 terrain region merge into a region> all regions that are either next to each other or can have a trade route ship or land air can't move enough materials for the Civ empire level share their resources.

regions/provinces share resources and improvements but improvement maintence cost will rise to if all cities or provinces don't have that improvement.

4 types of materials or whatever

food- consumed by people- processed becomes processed food X2 amount of people eat 1/2 as much depends on how you look at it

consumable goods- consumed by people, big for trade- becomes consumer goods trade for more and +50% amount

energy- used by units- only late game gas- needed late game adv energy used by nukes and anti nuke stuff

raw materials(shields same as civ2)- builds improvements(if you build them) and units- becomes compound materials late game for advanced unit construction and say +50% amount I guess maybe

4 groups ,2 for people 1 for building 1 for units I've explained how globally stuff happens now for a little more into provinces

Provinces/cities/regions can automatically get improvements if the economic lvl or industry lvl are high enough. And sometimes the people just build them. Like a market place if you are building a court system and it is taking 15 years a marketplace is just going to be built. It happens the people can do stuff on their own.

economic lvl
-10<>+10
-=unemployed, emmigration, tax income lowers
+=lowers unemployed, immigration, tax income raises, possibility of getting commercial type improvements automatically

determined by trade and some other stuff any ideas?

industry lvl
-10<>+10
-= unit/improvement construction time raises
+= unit/improvement construction time lowers and possibility of getting factory improvements automatically

determined by amount of construction and advances any other ideas for affectors?(is this a word??)

so to recap we have
city-province-region-empire
city-province-region share improvements and production and materials and industry/eco lvls.
regions share materials if they are next to each other or a trade route is available(ie not blockaded or having enemy empire in the way)

4 resources
industry and economic lvl
unemployment

that's about it not very complicated, just 2 lvl indicators the old civ stuff and now energy and consumables. modern units now need energy to be built and refilled or something.

What do you think???

I'm bored waiting for a download luckily I have go!zilla so it wasn't lost with my damn browser crash

edit: regions keep there own economic/industry lvl and improvements money is global always

trade arrows no more research not apply in this model

trade makes a lot of money from tariffs and can affect the economic lvl for like port cities so having a city on the tip of the straight of Gibraltar will be very prosperous and big.

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King Par4!!

There is no spoon
-The Matrix
Let's kick it up a notch!!
-Emeril Lagasse
Fresh Soy makes Tofu so silky
-Ming Tsai
[This message has been edited by Par4 (edited July 26, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Par4 (edited July 26, 2000).]

[UltraSonix]

From the archives (may '99).

quote: Reigons/Districts/States: After your empire has grown enough, it should become reigonal. What happens would be this: There is a 'reigonal headquarters' building, discovered with a certain tech. When you build a reigonal headquarters, you get told to make a reigon, then you select a certain number of cities to be part of that reigon. The number of cities that can be in a reigon should be limited by your efficiency/social choice. Once you have selected reigons, they share economy, production, food, support and research. If one city is not producing enough food, the cities with surpluses automatically give food to it until it is enough. The production queue is for the reigon. When something is finished, a list of the cities pops up, and you select what city it should go in. If it is a infrastructure improvement, the list only mentions those cities that do not have that improvement, and their basic stats- population, research, minerals, economy, and eco-damage. If it is a unit, the list shows the cities in the reigon and their current garrison, along with the supported units of the reigon. When you select the reigonal headquarters, a window pops up that looks like the city screen except the reigon is in the city window- the same way the 'support' button in SMAC shows a little map where the city is. There are 4 new buttons: Econ, Psych, Production, and Research. Clicking on them maximizes your production in this reigon for that area- citizens move from mines to solar panels, for example, and specialists are created. The right and left buttons, that normally scroll from city to city, scroll from city to city in your reigon, starting with the Reigonal Headquarters. You may then micromanage citizens within cities, select garrisoned units, deal with riots in your cities (which are still city-by city), etc. This is really important to me, because even on SMAC I find the later game annoying... I just want to rush to the end so I don't have to spend 20 minutes a turn micromanaging. I think you should be enjoying the fruits of your effort at this time, and concentrating on diplomacy, warfare, etc. instead of whether hicksville is getting enough food. Not to mention that in Civ, at least, this is far closer to the 'real world' situation in later years. (plus, I'd love to have a city of just researchers, or just economists, etc) Other strategies that would be awesome: cites outlying a central, old and productive reigon have autoforward routes to their respective frontiers. If war starts, the reigon goes to a war footing. Initially you're attacking from your western front, so when the unit(s) roll off the line, you have them pop up in the city with the forward route to the western front. Then, in a deranged maneuver, you decide to simultaneously fight a war with your massive neigbor to the east, and so the future units get built on your eastern city and automatically go to the frontier. Ok, maybe it's not a wise maneuver, but being able to do it that way would be awesome.

[Tim White]

That is a good idea, of provinces and such, except for one thibg, what if you want some different units in different cities??

[Shadowstrike]

Could you rephrase your question Tim?

Basically, my idea is to cut down on micromanagement by creating "provinces" composed of several cities. It would effectively act like one city, and when a unit or improvement is built, you get to choose where to put it. All of the regions resources are shared in a common pool, and when enough food is obtained, one of the cities will grow. The wonders will always be built in a province's capitial. You can redefine these provinces as you want.

Oh and thanx for buping this thread...

[Tim White]

Ok, now I understand, Would each province have its own capital (besides your main capital), that would act as the main trade center, and stuff like that for that province?

[Shadowstrike]

That's it. YOu would have a "provinces" screen, where you assign cities to provinces, and assign one of them as a capital.

So now, instead of having hundreds of cities, you would have several provinces, making it easier to manage in the mid to late game.