Making maps before mapmaking?

[red_jon]

There is something VERY wrong in Civ2.

How can you view a map screen before you have discovered mapmaking? I think that before mapmaking, units (and cities) should only be able to see what is directly around them and when they leave an area it should go back to being 'undiscovered'.

Plus, with the 'farming' screen (where you can choose where on the radius to farm), you should not be able to farm across the sea before you have discovered ships, I mean, do the farmers just SWIM across?!

So technology should have a greater effect on how you can manage your civilisation.

[Caesar]

VERY good points... but then some very rudimentary form of mapmaking (one that would be inaccurate perhaps) would need to be among the very very first techs... and it would have to be a tech with a quick research time.

C.

Well, I think the reason why in Civ2 you're allowed to perform fishing before discovering ships is that they suppose your tribe to know canoes et al. from the beginning.
Even the Native American tribes in Oregon were hunting whales but they didn't know "ships".
But I agree to the map making thing you pointed out.

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Wernazuma alias Cheshirecat alias Wörn

Master Mind of the World of Arendra

[UltraSonix]

quote: Making maps before mapmaking?

An extremely good point.

quote: How can you view a map screen before you have discovered mapmaking? I think that before mapmaking, units (and cities) should only be able to see what is directly around them and when they leave an area it should go back to being 'undiscovered'.

This is a very plausible idea, but some players may not like it. And it is only good for human players anyway, since the computer'll be able to remember all the squares it revealed (unless it's specifically programmed to do otherwise - which it won't).

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards... Despite any stupid advertisments you may see to the contrary...

[Tim White]

quote: Originally posted by red_jon on 10-20-2000 04:24 PM There is something VERY wrong in Civ2. How can you view a map screen before you have discovered mapmaking? I think that before mapmaking, units (and cities) should only be able to see what is directly around them and when they leave an area it should go back to being 'undiscovered'. Plus, with the 'farming' screen (where you can choose where on the radius to farm), you should not be able to farm across the sea before you have discovered ships, I mean, do the farmers just SWIM across?! You've got a very good point. I think that before Map Making, you can see the main map, but not the mini map (like in Red Alert, before you could build radar domes, you couldn't see your mini map). And also, I think the mini map should be enhanced, showing all your units and cities, and you could zoom in on it, and examine stuff. So that your mini map is more important then just showing your explored territory, and your cities. So technology should have a greater effect on how you can manage your civilisation.

[Osiricon]

I reall don't know where this belongs, but here seems to be ok.
In a previous post, before the system changed NotLikeTea said: With modern computers (with more HD space) it would be nice to do this, along with exporting the replay video as a real animation you could replay later, and maybe a bitmap image of the final map, or graphs...

Back in late 1980's? a game for the C64 (Commodore 64) called Modem Wars had the option, at the end of the match, to view a "movie" of the game. Basically it was just a scripted replay of the moves as the progressed in the match. The computer would animate the game pieces, showing in compressed time, your game. This was a real time strategy game, and one of the first, if not the first, active connection modem game.

To my point, sorry guys, why can't Civ 3 do similar. I don't mean keep track of unit moves, but use statistcal data to "recall" the progress and egress of your Civ's borders, and display your controlled area as shaded color reigons. Heck CTP, did this in game, with the borders. Use other statistics to replay other inportant events like weather changes, also a CTP feature. And if the programmers are feeling a little frisky, and had ALOT of coffee, go ahead and track all units, and include them in a replay. Also allow replay while game in progress, as this can tell the player alot. Replay any thoughts to my E-mail as well as here. As I do not frequent here much.

[rremus]

I think the mini map should be around from the begining of the game, because is a tool for you, the player, not to be used by the civ you command. After all, you give them commands using the keyboard long before they discover computers
But I think there is a good point: you should not be allowed to exchange MAPS before both civilisations discovered them!

[Adm.Naismith]

Hmm, I think some of you are a bit confused: is not that before "mapmaking" discovery people get lost just outside the village!

Knowledge of terrain was a basic need for hunters, not to mention nomadic tribes exchange knowledge by mouth and some painting technics way before writing was developed. I havent a proper history book at hand, but I'm sure S.Kroeze or any other apolytoner can check and confirm this.

About fishing, people used to fish on the shore or from early canoe, as Wernazuma underlined before.
Of course the use of advanced technics raised the amount of fish gained by sea, but that can be reproduced by game advance (add +1 to sea after proper discovery).

BTW, I'm reading today on the newspaper about a japanese discover of first kind of human hut (may be a kind of temple) aged to 600,000 (sixhundredthousands!) years ago. Think about knowledge tribe had 4.000 years ago, when Civ game start.

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

Adm. Naismith: In which newspaper did you read the article? Is the newspaper available on the net? This seems interesting to me (although I can't imagine there is a 600k years old hut, especially on JAPAN)

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Wernazuma alias Cheshirecat alias Wörn

Master Mind of the World of Arendra

[Adm.Naismith]

wernazuma, I'm sorry it's an italian one: Corriere della Sera, main newspaper in Italy.

If you understand italian you can check it at http://www.corriere.it/edicola/index...TERNI&doc=PREI (but it is a dynamic address, maybe it will change).

If you like I can use Apolyton message mailbox to send right to you a brief summarized version traslated in english by me.
You can try to check the news elsewhere looking for this keywords:
place of discovery: Japan, Kamitakamori, near Sendai town (300Km far from Tokyo)
archeologist: Hiroshi Kajiwara of the Tohohu Fudkushi university.

Sorry for the OT.

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant

[Tim White]

That is impossible, 600k human hut.

[Adm.Naismith]

I would like to stop the OT, but may be it's enough related with the Civ background someone will like anyway (if not, please post me and I'll stop any more writing about it ).

Of course the archeologist are supposing about the hut presence, because of regular hole in the ground (supposed to keep up the wood or the bones that were the hut structure, covered by animal skin) and a group of stone in the middle.

Rest of early "tools" and bones suggested about the use of the hut.

First news about discover (and the 600,000 years extimate) are two years old, and can be read (in english ) here http://www.trussel.com/prehist/news86.htm
detailed info are available here

The recent news (I'm not able to find an english site about it) are about the deduction of a primitive round hut (about 1m of radius), made by homo erectus.

Tim White don't worry, I don't mean nor want that CIV 3 start 600K years b.c.

edited note: Sorry, but I noticed that the url I linked here are corrupted by post censoring, because the Japanese location have inside the name the letters s_h_i_t and the silly program suppose I'm insulting someone!
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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant
[This message has been edited by Adm.Naismith (edited October 24, 2000).]

[S. Kroeze]

Map Making:
'Centuries before the Christian Era, Babylonians drew maps on clay tablets, of which the oldest specimens found so far have been dated about 2300 BC. This is the earliest positive evidence of graphic representations of parts of the Earth; it may be assumed that mapmaking goes back much further and that it began among nonliterate peoples. It is logical to assume that men very early made efforts to communicate with each other regarding their environment by scratching routes, locations, and hazards on the ground and later on bark and skins.

The earliest maps must have been based on personal experience and familiarity with local features. They doubtless showed routes to neighbouring tribes, where water and other necessities might be found, and the locations of enemies and other dangers. Nomadic life stimulated such efforts by recording ways to cross deserts and mountains, the relative locations of summer and winter pastures, and dependable springs, wells, and other information.

Markings on cave walls that are associated with paintings by primitive man have been identified by some archaeologists as attempts to show the game trails of the animals depicted, though there is no general agreement on this. Similarly, networks of lines scratched on certain bone tablets could possibly represent hunting trails, but there is definitely no conclusive evidence that the tablets are indeed maps.

The earliest specimens thus far discovered that are indisputably portrayals of land features are the Babylonian tablets previously mentioned; certain land drawings found in Egypt and paintings discovered in early tombs are nearly as old. It is quite probable that these two civilizations developed their mapping skills more or less concurrently and in similar directions. Both were vitally concerned with the fertile areas of their river valleys and therefore doubtless made surveys and plats soon after settled communities were established. Later they made plats for the construction of canals, roads, and temples--the equivalent of today's engineering plans.

A tablet unearthed in Iraq shows the Earth as a disk surrounded by water with Babylon as its centre. Aside from this specimen, dating from about 1000 BC, there appear to have been rather few attempts by Babylonians and Egyptians to show the form and extent of the Earth as a whole. Their mapmaking was preoccupied with more practical needs, such as the establishment of boundaries. Not until the time of the Greek philosopher-geographers did speculations and conclusions as to the nature of the Earth begin to take form.'
(source: Britannica.com, article 'map')

[Adm.Naismith]

I asked:

quote: I havent a proper history book at hand, but I'm sure S.Kroeze or any other apolytoner can check and confirm this.

He helps. Well done!
Thanks S.Kroeze

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Admiral Naismith AKA mcostant