Refugees

[red_jon]

Why can't you have refugees in Civ2?

If a government is a cruel dictatorship, citizens should be able to flee to other countries, meaning a loss of population for the dictatorship, and a gain for the other country.
This would allow us to simulate the Jewish refugees fleeing to the US and Western Europe, the East German citizens escaping to West Germany or not.

You should be able to choose on wether to accept them or not- if you don't it should lower your reputation.

Like partisans, refugees should also escape captured cities, into nearby territory.

They could be shown in the form of a settler, trying to escape into another country. Then the country they escaped fropm could capture/kill them (like the Soviet Union did.)



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...And if the British Commonwealth and its people live for a thousand years, man will still say "this was their finest hour"- Winston Churchill.

[Tim White]

Great Idea!!! I did have this kind of idea in mind, but have been to busy to post any more threads, this is exactly how I would have had it!

[UltraSonix]

It's good idea, but the game shouldn't have refugees continually migrating everywhere, else it'll clog up the game. That said, it'll be cool to go and pick up the refugees and allow them to joinyour civ. However, I don't think all "bad" governments should cause refugees - eg fundamentalist shouldn't.

This refugee thing would also allow the UN (planetary council, whatever) to be more effective. You'll be able to have resolutions to donate money to help the refugees set up their own city.

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards... Despite any stupid advertisments you may see to the contrary...

[Paulypav]

Great Concept, whether or not you have refugees leaving your civ should be a combination of your style of government and the level of happiness. I think refugees should be possible in every civ, but have it be dependant on the overall happiness on a predetermined scale. i.e. mild unhappiness would produce refugees in despotism, but only massive unhappiness would produce refugees in a democracy.

Refugees could be treated similar to settler units once you have decided to allow them to join your civ. They could be added to an existing city or allowed to build their own city. Perhaps it would be possible for them to create their own civ (similar to the Jewish people creating Israel, granted that happened with the help of the international community). Many of the colonists of the U.S. were political refugees of Europe and Australia began as a penal colony for England. Canada, New Zealand, South Africa and many Latin American countries have large populations of peoples who have been transplanted. In ancient times groups that didn't agree with the ruling government often packed up and moved and entire tribes migrated across Europe.

Basically, refugees have played an extremely important role throughout history.

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"In war, there is no substitute for victory."
- Douglas MacArthur

[Paulypav]

One other idea: What if refugees could bring scientific knowledge with them. The Manhattan Project received a huge boost from refugees from Nazi Germany like Albert Einstein.

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"In war, there is no substitute for victory."
- Douglas MacArthur

And what if a civ can declare a civil war against some its own citizens, ethnic groups/minorities, etc., as Hitler did against the Jews and other minorities in Nazi Germany. For reason's being a specific ethnic group may be a cause of problems for a nation, and you can either kill these ethnic minorities or just try to force them out of the country and then they become refugees. Though, you may lose your reputation, and other nations will either frown upon you, or wage war for your brutality.

Woops! I really didn't mean to say civil war, that's not really the right word. The correct term is Holocaust.
[This message has been edited by jrhughes98 (edited October 25, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by jrhughes98 (edited October 28, 2000).]

[UltraSonix]

quote: One other idea: What if refugees could bring scientific knowledge with them. The Manhattan Project received a huge boost from refugees from Nazi Germany like Albert Einstein.

That's a good idea - the settler/refugee would pseudo-belong to the civ it came from, and hence if you taken in the refugee, you could get scientific advance like if you captured one of the other civ's cities.

However, I feel feel that there needs to be some penalties involved - otherwise everyone would except refugees with open arms - perhaps even going to the extent of using spies to cause disorder to get them. In real life, this is certainly not the case.

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards... Despite any stupid advertisments you may see to the contrary...

[Jeje2]

red_jon:
A good idea.
I had in a recent thread a similiar refugee-idea.

I hope they implement refugees in CivIII.

[Tiberius]

Good idea, red_jon.

This idea relates with another issue that I hope Firaxis will include in Civ3 and which has been debated many times here, in the Civ3 forums: migration.

I think there should be not only political refugees, but also migration from poor countries to reach ones.

That reminds me one thing that I saw in Civ1 but not at all in Civ2: foreign poor cities, joining your empire, because they admire so much your great civilization!

[red_jon]

One good thing could be that if a more advanced civ lost refugees the civ that gets them gets a random knowledge from them. This could help simulate people like Einstien fleeing nazi Germany.

A bad factor for recieving them could be increased unhappiness (due to refugees 'stealing' jobs) and crime could increase a bit (due to racist attacks and separated communities).

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...And if the British Commonwealth and its people live for a thousand years, man will still say "this was their finest hour"- Winston Churchill.

[Kropotkin]

I don't wanna brag or something but I came up with this idea about half a year ago. I'm not sure it made the big list though...

I only had refugees from captured cities that would pop up just like partisans. maybe cities originally owned by "peaceful" regimes like democraties would be more likely to produce refugees while more violent states like fundamentalistic ones would mean that partisans would be more likely to pop up...

[Vrank Prins]

Great idea.
It would mean a shift in what has happened in that kind of conditions up till now in CIV, whole cities "defecting".

But what goes for politics can go for religion as well. If you can creat a parameter for political & economical unhappiness you can create one for religion likewise. The combination of these 2/3 factors might make the game more challenging. It should lead to serious difficulties at the highest gamelevels.

It is similar to what I suggested (following CTP and COLONIZATION) in the thread about Religion by Tim White. Why didn't I think of this ??!!
[This message has been edited by Vrank Prins (edited October 27, 2000).]

[cityhelper]

Maybe it could work like a function that the original Civilization had where if you were a Democracy and were VERY rich and powerful, a city from another country would "admire the wealth" of your country and would turn into one of your cities. I only had this happen in the first Civ. Civ2 has never done this and I've wondered what happened to that feature!

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Justin Hall
Cityhelper.com Travel
www.Cityhelper.com
(Discount Travel Specialist)

[Paulypav]

I think it is important for there to be potential downsides to taking in refugees. It seems that the effects of bringing in refugees could be similar to that of goody huts. They could give you a scientific advance, bring small amounts of gold, or simply add population. On the bad side they could sow discontent and you could possibly have them be saboteurs and when you take them in to a city one of your improvements is destroyed.

Taking the idea one step further and adding a layer of strategy, what about having civs able to build their own refugee units that would be identical to random refugees but controlled by you. If another civ takes in your "refugee" you have them attempt sabotage similar to the spy attack.

I like the idea of cities defecting but, is it reasonable to consider the concept of cities defecting through the modern age. When is the last time you heard of a city deciding to change its allegiance. I can't remember it happening after the decline of the city-states and any association of city-states wasn't really a country.

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"In war, there is no substitute for victory."
- Douglas MacArthur

[Tim White]

I like this idea, however, Ultrasonix is right, there has to be a down side to taking in refugees, or every one will want them, even make them get them. Maybe if you did, your cities would be more content, and when some refugees brings you tech, the tech should depend upon how advanced that civ was. For example, would a civ that has not yet discovered mobile warfare give you that tech through refugees??

I also like the idea of migration.

[Stuff2]

This idea will actually give the "Berlin wall" a meaning.
When you build the "Berlin wall" the number of emigrants will be decreased.

[Nikolai]

quote: Originally posted by Stuff2 on 10-28-2000 08:25 AM This idea will actually give the "Berlin wall" a meaning. When you build the "Berlin wall" the number of emigrants will be decreased.

1. How many can be build?
2. Will your government have to be authoritarian?(I think it should have to )
3. Will it expire? (the original did, you know )
4. How much should it decrease?
5. How will this influence on your neighbours? (Will they be more negative to you?)
6. How will your people react? (unhappiness, riots)

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Who am I? What am I? do we need Civ? YES!!

[red_jon]

I think the Berlin Wall idea should:-

Only be available under dictatorship,
Be destroyed with revolution,
Stop more refugees the more military units there are in your city (guarding the wall),
Lower your reputation and make nearby nations dislike you more.

Just my thoughts...

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...And if the British Commonwealth and its people live for a thousand years, man will still say "this was their finest hour"- Winston Churchill.