speeding up Forbidden Palace

[Dimension]

How can I build the Forbidden Palace faster?

Normally, as I found my first eight cities, my empire is expanding in on particular direction, and I build the FP at the opposite end, giving my initial group of cities very high production. This seems logical to me, and I assume it's how most people play.

Sometimes, though, I find a very good site far away. In my current game, my first two cities had good sites but were surrounded by jungle. During early expansion/exploration/fighting/map trading, I found a distant site with FIVE CATTLE and a river running through it. I build my 5th city there, rushed a Temple, and started production on some Wonder to save up shields for the FP. I quicly built roads to the new city and conquered the rest of the continent, keeping two cities. I founded my 8th city as I shuffled non-elite Horsemen to the distant city to rush the FP. The corrupt city was now size 6 with 11 production, 10 of it going to waste. I switched production to the Forbidden Palace -- 267 turns to complete. I disbanded a couple horsemen... still 267 turns to complete. I thought maybe I had to actually produce part of the FP before I could disband units for it, so I waited, and next turn tried disbanding a couple Horsemen. Still 266 turns to complete. I spent 2 population to rush a Courthouse. Next turn, production went from 1 up to 4 -- FP complete in 75 turns. As my production goes up, corruption goes up, so there's no hope of me completing it in less than 75 turns.

This is something that changed in the patch, right? Is there any way for me to speed that up?

(note to Willem: I'm not talking about using the editor to lower the cost of the Forbidden Palace )

[Harovan]

You can't rush neither great nor small wonders by disbanding units. Only with a great leader, assumed you got one. You should have saved your horsies .

[Willem]

Originally posted by Dimension


(note to Willem: I'm not talking about using the editor to lower the cost of the Forbidden Palace )

Getting predictable in my old age I see.

[SanPellegrino]

It seems that waste gets less, if the city is surrounded by other cities. Also I recognized that the impact of courthouses/policestations increases as time goes by. Did anyone else made this obeservation?

[Marquis de Sodaq]

I talked about this recently in some other thread. You can cut down the build time from 75 turns to 20 if you plan ahead and mobilize workers.

You've found your site and settled there. That's the obvious first step. If corruption is not total, add settlers until your town grows to a size 10 city. You will produce a handful of shields then. The courthouse is the second step to max this paltry production. (If corruption is total, and extra workers do nothing for production, too bad. ) Next build the temple to expand your border. In either case, plant trees and cut them down around your FP city. If the tiles are closer to that city than any neighboring towns, the 10 shields go to FP construction.

Even post patch, allowing only one clearing per tile, will reduce the build time by huge leaps. At 4 shields per turn, each forest clearing will cut another 2.5 turns off your build time. If you get 6 shields per turn at size 12, it's worth the extra population!

The logistics is the hard part. You'll need to sail/march in piles of workers to do the cutting. Your productive home cities should have no trouble pumping out workers and ships. It takes an effort of many cities and units, but is workable. I had a similar case, reducing my FP construction to 23 turns - the same as a wonder in a moderately production middle age city. The result was a set of 8 cities and towns, each with a production of 16-20 shields per turn. It is worth the effort!

[Hawkx9]

Originally posted by SanPellegrino
It seems that waste gets less, if the city is surrounded by other cities.

I have never noticed this so I'd have to disagree.

To the original poster, 75 turns really isn't bad. I'm happy when it's under 100. But seriously, you're doing all you can short of using a Leader to speed up the process. Raising the population of said city is the best and only option because, unless 100% corrupt, a larger city will bring in more shields, even if 70% corrupt. Much more than 1 shield/turn anyway.

[Willem]

And it probably wouldn't hurt to rush a courthouse beforehand. It might give you a few more shields per turn, so it would probably be worth it to pay some gold just to get it done quickly. But then again it might not, depending on how far away the city is.

[monkeyman]

Definitely build a courthouse and some happiness improvements enough so that you can force a WLTK day which should cut your shield waste in half. I use this all the time since I've gotten leaders only ONCE in >20 games (go figure, lots of wars but no luck)...

Anyway, if you can get leaders, this is as good a use as any I guess...

-mm

[monkeyman]

>Even post patch, allowing only one clearing per tile, will reduce the build time by huge leaps.
At 4 shields per turn, each forest clearing will cut another 2.5 turns off your build time. If you get 6 shields per turn at size 12, it's worth the extra population!<

Cutting trees can't speed up wonders...

Right?

-mm

[SanPellegrino]

Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq
I talked about this recently in some other thread

Do you know exact numbers of courts and police getting better? And some verifications of the "inner city-syndrome"?

[Dimension]

I rushed the Temple immediately, because there was really nothing else the city could do. I couldn't even build a Courthouse until I finished beating down the Americans and got all their tech.

I mean, am I the only one here building my FP in Ancient Times? I generally thought my expansion was slower than most players, but I definitely have 8 cities before I have Engineering to be able to lumberjack the FP. I play on standard maps ... I have to assume all you people playing on huge maps need the FP even sooner... Maybe I'm just getting tech slower than all you people.

I reloaded the game and just disbanded my non-elites to build a Courthouse and most of an Aqueduct, added one worker to get the city up to size 7 again, then I was working seven 2-shield squares and able to get the FP in 43 turns without using any entertainers. I suppose there's no better way without being able to lumberjack...

[Jack_www]

What I do is what a long time before I build a Forbidden Place, usullay in the middle ages. By that time I have a good number of cities. This way I can put the forbidden palace in the best place to reduce corruption. I also find If the city is not that far away as the city grows you will get more sheild that are not lost to production since the corruption is high but not 100%. Usually cities that are far away start off with losing a lot of sheilds and you dont see any more sheilds you can use untill the city is bigger.

Cutting down trees to add to the production to any small wonder does not work.
The only way you can rush build a small wonder or great wonder is by use of a great leader. Thus dissbanning units or cutting down trees wont work.

[Gramphos]

If you make it WLTKD that should reduce corruption.

[Ironikinit]

WLTKD is the way to go. This will require a lot of rushing, you'll need a temple, a cathedral, and a marketplace at least, as well as connections to your luxuries and maybe an aquaduct. Hope you're a republic or better and making good money. I personally do NOT think that courthouses help with waste, only corruption (that is no help with shields, only commerce). I've taken notes on it and everything. Please let us know if you find out differently.

I tend not to build my FP until quite late unless I have unusually rapid expansion on a large continent. I would probably have better results if I did it quicker, but I always think I can expand yet a bit more...

[Hermann the Lombard]

Dimension,

It's actually easier to move your Palace there than it is to build the FP there. As Xin Yu discovered, if you disband your capital, your palace automatically moves to your most populous city, no extra charge. With five cattle (and only 5 cities), you could make that your most populous very easily.

I said "no extra charge" but obviously you lose a productive city and anything you've built in it...but if you only have five cities, you haven't built *that* much. As Xin Yu points out, don't build a wonder in your capital is you think you may want to move it.

(See Xin Yu's "Two Ideas" thread in this section.)

As for the FP, a GL is the only quick way.

-- Hermann

[Willem]

Originally posted by Ironikinit


I tend not to build my FP until quite late unless I have unusually rapid expansion on a large continent. I would probably have better results if I did it quicker, but I always think I can expand yet a bit more...

That's usually my problem as well, I put off building the FP until I find just the right location around my frontier cities, which tend to be way, way off from the capital. So I end up stuck with some dinky city with a 1 shield production. If I were to build a little closer to home, I'd probably have it completed much sooner.

[Dimension]

What, I'm the only one who builds my Forbidden Palace ASAP?

You guys are making FP placement too complicated. The best thing to do can only be to build it immediately when you find the most productive area of your continent (i.e. the area with the most resource specials).

That's the big difference between this game and Civ 2. A small number of extremely productive cities is better than a lot of OK cities, and it's all about location and specials, because you can't flatten mountains or build farmland.

Remember that your regular Palace can move around all you want, and while your first few cities will definitely be well developed and useful, they might not be in the best location for the Palace.

If you're going to obsess over Palace/Forbidden Palace placement, it's more logical to think about relocating your Palace sometime in the mid-game. Waiting to build the FP because you want to find the best spot after your empire develops is a huge waste. You're choosing to have a single palace instead of two, which means you're losing a lot of production.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Dimension
What, I'm the only one who builds my Forbidden Palace ASAP?

You guys are making FP placement too complicated. The best thing to do can only be to build it immediately when you find the most productive area of your continent (i.e. the area with the most resource specials).

That's the big difference between this game and Civ 2. A small number of extremely productive cities is better than a lot of OK cities, and it's all about location and specials, because you can't flatten mountains or build farmland.

Remember that your regular Palace can move around all you want, and while your first few cities will definitely be well developed and useful, they might not be in the best location for the Palace.

If you're going to obsess over Palace/Forbidden Palace placement, it's more logical to think about relocating your Palace sometime in the mid-game. Waiting to build the FP because you want to find the best spot after your empire develops is a huge waste. You're choosing to have a single palace instead of two, which means you're losing a lot of production.

Well if you know all this, why are you asking for our advice?

[Blitzer]

A courthouse will not help you build anything faster. Courthouses only reduce corruption, not waste. Corruption = money, waste = shields.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Blitzer
A courthouse will not help you build anything faster. Courthouses only reduce corruption, not waste. Corruption = money, waste = shields.

Well I don't know about that, it seems to me that my production increases if I build a courthouse. I could be wrong though. I'll be sure to keep my eye on it next time.

[vmxa1]

What do you mean by "better". Lots of city means control of lots of land, which mean control of resources and access. Not to mention increase score. If you want to win a space race or cult win, then you maybe correct, but otherwise, best to build as many cities as you can. I wait on FP, not to get a better location, but I just can not take the time out from production. Once I have a GL to spare, then I do it or a strong city in a good place.

[ktaek]

Sounds familiar, that was similar to how i first used FP myself. I got crushed that game waiting for it to build.

Now i generally build FPs close to my capital, not more than 8 tiles away at the very farthest.

EDIT: I always time my FP construction with my golden age, which helps a great deal.

[Willem]

Originally posted by ktaek
Sounds familiar, that was similar to how i first used FP myself. I got crushed that game waiting for it to build.

Now i generally build FPs close to my capital, not more than 8 tiles away at the very farthest.

EDIT: I always time my FP construction with my golden age, which helps a great deal.

Golden Ages are also a very good time to switch governments, you hardly miss a beat even being in Anarchy.

[Dimension]

Originally posted by Willem
Well if you know all this, why are you asking for our advice?

Now now ....

I was asking for advice on speeding up the Forbidden Palace. It seems odd that most people are saying that they don't bother with it until the late Middle Ages.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Dimension


Now now ....

I was asking for advice on speeding up the Forbidden Palace. It seems odd that most people are saying that they don't bother with it until the late Middle Ages.

Sorry I wasn't being testy, just asking a question. As to the reason, maybe to many people, myself included, wait to long in order to find just the right place to put it, and that generally ends up being in a city that has a shield output of 1. Besides, you need to have so many cities in order just to build it, it might take until the Middle Ages, especially if you're playing a huge map.

[SanPellegrino]

Originally posted by Ironikinit
I personally do NOT think that courthouses help with waste, only corruption (that is no help with shields, only commerce). I've taken notes on it and everything. Please let us know if you find out differently.

courthouses and police stations help with waste, too. At least if the city is still in the "corruption distance". In Industrial Age Police Stations give me usually 2 extra shields in cities with about 30-40% waste.

[Marquis de Sodaq]

I typically won't build the FP until I've expanded to someplace far from my original territory. Usually that's been early in the AD years when I start it. WLTKD helps a bunch. In the early game, I just don't have enough cities far away to warrant a second capitol, as I tend to settle or conquer close by.

[Trdi]

You can speed whatever you want but with limitations. Choose the most expensive thing which you can hurry/buy. Then buy it and change to FP, GW, SW.

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Once you hurry production, you can't switch to a wonder, n'est-ce pas?

[Trdi]

I didn't know that(I thought I used that, but now I see I didn't). However, you can disband units? I'm sure that works. (before you switch to GW).