Irritating Settler Expansion

[Zachriel]

How many times has a neighboring Civ planted a town in what you believe to be your native lands? Irritating isn't it?

Click here:
http://www.crowncity.net/civ3/culturesqueeze.htm

[Flight]

nice, as long as the civ in place of the french/indians doesnt have the power to kill you. Taking away space for the enemy to build is my first priority

You know you're doing well when they send settler/spearmen through your borders.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Zachriel
How many times has a neighboring Civ planted a town in what you believe to be your native lands? Irritating isn't it?

Click here:
http://www.crowncity.net/civ3/culturesqueeze.htm

Maybe I'm dense, but I fail to see your point.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Willem
Maybe I'm dense, but I fail to see your point.

Many people have posted they do not like it when the AI plants settlers in the cracks of their cultural control, land they believe rightfully belongs to them, even though they do not have cultural boundaries around it yet. Of course, if it irritates your enemy, it must be good.

Basically, you can dominate the cultural situation and not be a victim of it. Make them defend their culture.

[vmxa1]

My solution is to kill wandering settlers.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Flight
You know you're doing well when they send settler/spearmen through your borders.

To my NE were the Egyptians pressed against the sea. In order to settle Satsuma in the River basin to start my cultural attack, I had to delay settling another crucial spot near the Egyptians at the top of this map.

There are three spots I would like, but if I go for the river basin, I could lose one of the other more "natural" locations for my towns. The northern most spot I was willing to forego, as the Egyptians would probably found it on the sea, far enough from my capital to not cause a problem.

When it came time to grab the northern most spot, I had a couple Spearman and the Settler close behind, dancing with three other civ's settlers. It was like the Oklahoma land rush. Everyone was making a grab.

I got there just a turn ahead, so got all three spots.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by vmxa1
My solution is to kill wandering settlers.

That is a legitimate strategy, but many of us won't normally do that.

[Willem]

Ok, I understand your point and thanks for sharing that. I'm still getting used to the whole cultural boundary thing, but I definitly see some strategic possibilities for city placement that we didn't have before. In previous Civs, it didn't matter much where you built them, except for the odd chokepoint, but now there's a few more options available.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Zachriel


That is a legitimate strategy, but many of us won't normally do that.

Myself I've created some colorless units that allow me to attack Units/Cities without having to have an all out war. I like it actually, though it's not quite as effective as I thought it would be. As soon as another civ's troops come across one they immediately attack, so they don't have much of a "shelf life". And I've also noticed that the other civ gets furious whenever I use one. But they've helped me get rid of a couple of pesky cities so far.

[vmxa1]

When you say created, I presume you mean using the editor. Using the editor is a form of cheating to me. Anyway I want them to go to war with me at any level above regent. It allows me to thin out the troops that they have and forces them to spend wealth on building more. I get to promote units and get a few leaders to rush with. Once I get knights, I start to take or raze cities and take over the tech lead soon after (game over). I love it when I look out and see 9 or 10 stacks of the various civs coming my way. BY the time I go on the attack they are short on troops and are using conscripts (sad movies for them).

[Willem]

Originally posted by vmxa1
When you say created, I presume you mean using the editor. Using the editor is a form of cheating to me. Anyway I want them to go to war with me at any level above regent. It allows me to thin out the troops that they have and forces them to spend wealth on building more. I get to promote units and get a few leaders to rush with. Once I get knights, I start to take or raze cities and take over the tech lead soon after (game over). I love it when I look out and see 9 or 10 stacks of the various civs coming my way. BY the time I go on the attack they are short on troops and are using conscripts (sad movies for them).

The editor doesn't work when creating units, I have to use the Civ3CopyTool for that. And why is it cheating when the units are available to the AI as well? With those colorless units in particular, there have been a couple of times in my current game that I thought I'd created a monster. The AI uses them very well, in the same way I do, and seems to make quite a few of them. It especially likes to capture my Workers/Settlers. I think adding them has created an interesting challenge to my game frankly, it's really keeping me on my toes.

[vmxa1]

Great. If you are happy with it then fine, I just do not see talking about apples, if you have oranges. When the game is modified, I can not use the the data. That is not to say it is not fun, just not germain.

[Purple]

I find that it's necessary to build a number of warriors to use as blockers. If the AI can't find a way to sneak through your lines for reconnaissance purposes (or find out what's available from a map trade), it won't send settlers.

But when the settler/spearman pair come to found a city, they pick the weak points, places where your cultural boundaries are only a few tiles apart. You just have to line up a couple of units, even workers, to block them. After a few turns, they get discouraged and try someplace else.

Of course, settlers can arrive by sea, but this doesn't usually happen until later in the game.

[vmxa1]

I have tried to block, but it is rarely possible. Too many places to go, it takes 6 or more units and I do not have them. If I have enough units to block, I have more than enough to whack them.
Anyway, it needs to be a declaration of war to come into anyones terrain, cross a culture border, without permission. This would make the AI be more careful as you must be. You can not send a spearmen and a settler into their land and not pay. The AI does not grasp the fact that I am willing to go to war over incursion, no matter how many times I do. They do not understand that when you say leave and they say ok and do not that they run a grave risk.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by vmxa1
My solution is to kill wandering settlers.

Sorry for responding late to this one, but that would explain why you are in war with everybody even during the ancient era, as we discussed in another thread.

My solution is sending settlers myself as fast as I can (2-3 settler factories, all other cities produce military), no wonder building, avoiding holes and weak spots and using workers and military units to block intruders. In this phase of the game, the last thing I need is a war (or let's say more than one at a time).

And if the AI sneaks in 1-2 cities, oh well, they are scheduled for getting assimilated either by a culture bomb or by military force later in the game.

[vmxa1]

Yes, I want to be at war. I have short periods of 6-10 turns without war, but if no one wants to attack, then I start one. The worst part is late game where I have to wait to finish my RR before I can get back to war, although sometimes a war comes then as well. I want to own every inch of land, save one small city I leave and then pile up points till 2050.

[Purple]

Originally posted by vmxa1
I have tried to block, but it is rarely possible. Too many places to go, it takes 6 or more units and I do not have them.

Well, if you arrange your blockers right (in a V formation), you can get along with five or fewer. I also warn the intruders, and that works sometimes, but it may lead to their declaring war. Unlike you, vmxa1, I prefer peace during this phase of the game, so the blocking technique works better for me.

Fortunately, this game gives many paths to Nirvana, so no one method can be considered "best."

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by vmxa1
I have tried to block, but it is rarely possible. Too many places to go, it takes 6 or more units and I do not have them. If I have enough units to block, I have more than enough to whack them.
Anyway, it needs to be a declaration of war to come into anyones terrain, cross a culture border, without permission. This would make the AI be more careful as you must be. You can not send a spearmen and a settler into their land and not pay. The AI does not grasp the fact that I am willing to go to war over incursion, no matter how many times I do. They do not understand that when you say leave and they say ok and do not that they run a grave risk.

I agree, it should be an act of war for military units to enter your territory. & settlers too, for that matter. Or at least, when you tell them to leave, then they should. Or if not, then I should be free to destroy them with no penalty attached. I.e., it shouldn't cause them to declare war on me if I kill units violating my territory. I will admit, this is one of the biggest nitpicks I have in the game. Even in the late game, weak & puny civs treat my territory as open highway, often blocking my own lines of communication. Yet when I try the same trick & they complain, the option *I* get moves my units automatically, whereas they just keep on truckin'.



Anyway,

[JohnE]

Originally posted by Purple

Well, if you arrange your blockers right (in a V formation), you can get along with five or fewer. I also warn the intruders, and that works sometimes, but it may lead to their declaring war. Unlike you, vmxa1, I prefer peace during this phase of the game, so the blocking technique works better for me.

Fortunately, this game gives many paths to Nirvana, so no one method can be considered "best."

I have found a way to convince the AI that I am willing to war on it and that it should leave: build more units. It ignores your demands when you have no units around to enforce them. Bring one or two attack units near the interlopers, and they become much more willing to leave.

Of course, that doesn't change the fact that they will leave your territory by heading for holes within it. That's when you have to show them the errors of their ways.

[Purple]

Originally posted by Unregistered

when I try the same trick & they complain, the option *I* get moves my units automatically, whereas they just keep on truckin'.

Yeah, automatic removal should apply to the AI, too. This is why I've resorted to blocking.

And I should also mention that all the warriors I build for this purpose are a great reserve of upgradable units once the settlement phase of the game has ended, and the winds of war start to blow.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Unregistered


I agree, it should be an act of war for military units to enter your territory. & settlers too, for that matter. Or at least, when you tell them to leave, then they should. Or if not, then I should be free to destroy them with no penalty attached. I.e., it shouldn't cause them to declare war on me if I kill units violating my territory. I will admit, this is one of the biggest nitpicks I have in the game. Even in the late game, weak & puny civs treat my territory as open highway, often blocking my own lines of communication. Yet when I try the same trick & they complain, the option *I* get moves my units automatically, whereas they just keep on truckin'.



Anyway,

Well then, you should try this idea of creating some colorless units. You''ll be able to whack any interlopers that crosses your territory without risking an all out war. It works great, except for that the fact the AI uses them as well. Though it tends to send out raiding parties to capture my workers, and attack anything else they come across.

[Bautou]

Originally posted by Purple
Yeah, automatic removal should apply to the AI, too. This is why I've resorted to blocking.

It seems a bit weird how removal demands affect the AI. I've found that there are times when I demand removal, and the AI units are teleported back to the border. I think the option in diplomacy reads "Remove your forces or declare war!". I haven't tested it, but it seems that if you demand once the AI has a choice whether or not to go, but if you demand twice, it's either auto-removal or war.

[Grumbold]

An alternative to direct blocking is hole-filling. If you only have modest cultural gaps you can amuse yourself (and friends) by watching the incursion parties head for a nice gap site then fill it with workers, warriors or even call in town defenders temporarily. As soon as you do this the AI will know the site is unavailable and pick a new target. Go back to whatever it was you were doing until its time to nip round and plug the AI's new site of choice. Under the right circumstances this can keep several setler/spearmen teams on the bounce with far less units than direct blocking tactics, giving you time to grow your borders or plug them with your own settlers.

[Nakar Gabab]

Originally posted by Bautou


It seems a bit weird how removal demands affect the AI. I've found that there are times when I demand removal, and the AI units are teleported back to the border. I think the option in diplomacy reads "Remove your forces or declare war!". I haven't tested it, but it seems that if you demand once the AI has a choice whether or not to go, but if you demand twice, it's either auto-removal or war.

Actually, it depends on circumstances. Every now and then they'll send a particular unit (non-combat units are PARTICULARLY bad for this, as they don't count as 'combat' units) into your territory, and you CANNOT get them out without attacking. They'll tell you they're leaving, and ignore you.

Case in point: I like to mine grasslands. Babylon had built one of their culture-squeeze cities in the middle of my empire, in an area with TWO squares of flat land. There was no fresh water available, so what do they do? Send THEIR workers to irrigate over MY mines to reach THEIR flippin' city. And no amount of diplomacy would make them knock it off, as Babylon had sent no military units in. I just had to clean up behind them. Bloody idjits.

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by Willem


Well then, you should try this idea of creating some colorless units. You''ll be able to whack any interlopers that crosses your territory without risking an all out war. It works great, except for that the fact the AI uses them as well. Though it tends to send out raiding parties to capture my workers, and attack anything else they come across.

That's interesting. I had seen this mentioned in another thread, but hadn't really considered doing it because I didn't think the ai could handle it. If it can, then I just might do that thing, if I start another game. Soren deserves to be congratulated on this!!

Thanks,

[vmxa1]

It does not really matter about my power, they do it when I just finished bashing them. They are going to go for any space they see, regardless. Wow only 5 units, I guess i can spare the scores it will take to cover all my land, yeah right. So if I have civs in three spots on two cities I should just come up with 15 units? Get real, three units can kill them, case closed. One other thing that I hate is that at times they will get the auto move and it moves them to the very spot I am trying to prevent them from getting into. If it is closest unowned spot. If I have 5 units doing nothing, something is wrong with my approach.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Unregistered


That's interesting. I had seen this mentioned in another thread, but hadn't really considered doing it because I didn't think the ai could handle it. If it can, then I just might do that thing, if I start another game. Soren deserves to be congratulated on this!!

Thanks,

Well it's not a sure fire solution as I'm finding out. I made my units a little bit weaker and more expensive than their normal counterparts just so it wouldn't get things from becoming unbalanced. But since they're colorless, they're open season for any foreign units that happen to come across them. I've gone through a LOT of them just trying to keep my neighbouring civs contained.

The other civs don't seem to make very many of them, at least they haven't for awhile. At one point the Zulus sent a crew with about half a dozen of them into my territory, just eager to pick off any stray workers that might be hanging around. But I haven't come across any for some time now in the game I'm playing. But I've been filling up my graveyards with their remains, so it's not like it's ending up be some sort of secret weapon that only I know how to use.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Willem


Well it's not a sure fire solution as I'm finding out. I made my units a little bit weaker and more expensive than their normal counterparts just so it wouldn't get things from becoming unbalanced. But since they're colorless, they're open season for any foreign units that happen to come across them. I've gone through a LOT of them just trying to keep my neighbouring civs contained.

The other civs don't seem to make very many of them, at least they haven't for awhile. At one point the Zulus sent a crew with about half a dozen of them into my territory, just eager to pick off any stray workers that might be hanging around. But I haven't come across any for some time now in the game I'm playing. But I've been filling up my graveyards with the remains of my own, so it's not like it's ending up be some sort of secret weapon that only I know how to use.