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Old November 4, 2000, 01:34   #31
jrhughes98
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Originally posted by rremus on 11-03-2000 10:58 AM
I thought Zero was discovered by Indians and brough to europe by Arabs. I might be wrong...
In rest, good ideea. Maybe also a wonder, "Julian Calendar" or "Gregorian calendar" that would impose to all civs your particular calendar, whatever that is. I cannot think at it benefits... 1 extra citizen happy? Better attitude of other civs toward you? ! extra citizen unhappy in all other civs ?



This could lead the the development of the 365-day calendar, and other advances. Let's not forget that there have been many different types of calenders used in history. I believe the lunar calendar was the very first. Yes, here it is. . .

CALENDAR. People have kept track of the days by the march of daylight and darkness and of the changing seasons in order to know when to plant crops and to get ready for winter. Sometimes they kept the record by notching a stick or knotting a cord once every day. They also watched the changing positions of the sun and stars, the changes of the moon, and the habits of plants and animals. The making of an exact calendar, however, has perplexed mankind for ages because the divisions of time by days, weeks, months, and years do not seem to fit together properly.

Early Calendars
The Sumerians of Babylonia were probably the first people to make a calendar. They used the phases of the moon, counting 12 lunar months as a year. To make up for the difference between this year and the year of the seasons, they inserted an extra month in the calendar about every four years. The early Egyptians, Greeks, and Semitic peoples copied this calendar. Later the Egyptians worked out a calendar that corresponded almost exactly to the seasons.
The early Romans also used a calendar that was based on the moon. The year in this calendar was 355 days long. The months corresponding to March, May, July, and October each had 31 days; February had 28 days; and the rest had 29. An extra month was added about every fourth year.
The high priest regulated the calendar. On the calends, or day of the new moon, he announced to the people the times of the nones (first quarter) and ides (full moon) for that month. The word calendar is from the Latin word kalendae.
The priests, however, performed their calendar-keeping duties poorly, and by Julius Caesar's time they had summer months coming in the spring. Caesar corrected this situation in 46 BC in the Julian calendar. He adopted the plan of the Egyptian astronomer Sosigenes--a 365-day year, with one day added every fourth, or "leap," year. He distributed the extra ten days among the 29-day months, making them identical with the months today.
The month Quintilis was renamed July for Julius Caesar. Later Sextilis was renamed August in honor of Emperor Augustus. An old story tells how Emperor Augustus changed the number of days in his month from 30 to 31 so that it would be as long as Caesar's. The story probably has no basis in fact.
Julius Caesar's correction of one day in four years (1/4 day, or six hours, a year) made the calendar year longer than the year of the seasons. Thus anniversaries began coming earlier and earlier in the year. In 1582 the vernal equinox, or beginning of spring, occurred on March 11 instead of the correct date, March 21.
Pope Gregory XIII remedied this by directing that ten days be dropped from the calendar and that the day after Oct. 4, 1582, should be October 15. He also directed that three times in every 400 years the leap-year arrangement should be omitted.


Gregorian Calendar
The new calendar was called the Gregorian, or New Style (N.S.), calendar. It was adopted by Roman Catholic countries, but Protestant and Eastern Orthodox countries long continued to use the Old Style (O.S.), or Julian, calendar. The new calendar was not adopted in England until 1752, when it was necessary to drop 11 days. The Eastern Orthodox church accepted the New Style in 1923, when 13 days were "lost." The Chinese had adopted it in 1912.
Another reform that the Gregorian calendar effected was general adoption of January 1 as the beginning of the year. Until then some nations began it with December 25, others with January 1 or March 25 (as England did before 1752).


Native American Calendar Systems
Among the Indians who lived in the Western Hemisphere before the arrival of Christopher Columbus, the most complex calendars were those developed by the Mayan and Aztec peoples. (See also Aztecs; Maya.)
North American tribes did not have true calendars, or integrated systems for indicating days and longer periods of time. Usually intervals of time--days, months, and years--were counted independently of one another. The day was a basic unit recognized by all tribes, but there is no record of any names for the days. Longer periods of time were counted by moons, which began with the new moon or conjunction of moon and sun. Years were divided into four seasons. Among settled agricultural tribes, the cycle of seasons was significant, but the beginning time of the year varied. For some it was observed at the vernal equinox, the start of spring. The Hopi Indians of Arizona celebrated the new year, which they called the new-fire ceremony, in November, while the Creek Indians' ceremony was in late July or early August.


Maya calendar
The basic structure of the Maya calendar is common to all calendars of ancient Mexico and Central America. It consisted of a ritual cycle of 260 named days and a year of 365 days. These cycles, which ran concurrently, formed a longer cycle of 18,980 days, or 52 years of 365 days. Called a "calendar round," a designated day occurred at the end of the cycle in the same position. The 365-day year was divided into 18 months of 20 days each, with five "days of evil omen" added to fill out the years.

Aztec calendar
The calendar of the Aztecs was based on earlier calendars of the Valley of Mexico and was similar to the Mayan calendar. It had a ritual cycle as well as a year of 365 days. But the Aztec and Mayan years did not necessarily coincide with one another. The Aztecs also had 18 months of 20 days, plus the five extra days to complete the year. These years were also considered to form a 52-year cycle. The year served to fix the time of festivals, which occurred at the end of each month.

Inca calendar
Very little is known about the calendar used by the Incas of Peru. Some scholars have even said they had no calendar. But most historians believe that the Incas had a calendar based on observations of both sun and moon. Names of 12 lunar months are recorded as well as their association with festivals in the agricultural cycle. Work seems to have been organized on the basis of a nine-day week. Three nine-day weeks, or 27 days, is the approximate time between new moons. Every third year was made up of 13 moons, with the others having 12. This formed a cycle of 37 moons, and 20 of these cycles made a period of 60 years. (See also Incas.)

Other Calendar Systems
There are several very old calendar systems still in use. Three of the most prominent are the Jewish, Muslim, and Chinese. Both the Jewish and Chinese calendars are lunisolar: The years are reckoned according to the sun but the months according to the moon. The Muslim calendar is lunar.
The Jewish calendar supposes the world was created in what is 3761 BC on the Gregorian calendar. The years are designated AM for anno mundi, which is Latin for "year of the world." There is, therefore, no designation of BC or AD as there is in the Gregorian calendar. Because the solar year exceeds 12 lunar months by about 11 days, a 13th month of 30 days is intercalated, or inserted, seven times in each 19-year cycle. This procedure follows the ancient Babylonian tradition with which ancient Israel was familiar. Other adjustments to the calendar are required periodically to make sure that the festival of Passover follows the first day of Spring.
Christianity, for most of its major festivals, adheres to the Jewish lunar calendar. Therefore, many of its feasts are movable. The chief holiday, Easter, always falls on the first Sunday following the full Moon that falls on or after the vernal equinox. Therefore, most of the church year, including the pre-Easter season of Lent, is always adjusted to the date of Easter. Other festivals, such as Christmas and New Year, are fixed.
The Chinese calendar is basically lunar, or based on the moon, consisting of 12 months of alternately 29 and 30 days. This lunar year totals 354 days. To keep this calendar in step with the solar year of about 365 days, intercalary months are periodically inserted in much the same way they are in the Jewish calendar. One interesting feature of the Chinese calendar is the naming of the years. Twelve animal names from ancient times have been attached to years. These names, in order of their occurrence, are: rat, ox, tiger, hare, dragon, snake, horse, sheep, monkey, fowl, dog, and pig. This cycle of years is frequently used for astrological purposes, much the same way the 12 signs of the zodiac are used in the West to describe personality traits and to tell fortunes.
Islam's year is entirely lunar, following directives from its holy book, the Koran. The lunar cycles are considered guides for the faithful in their religious observances. The Islamic year has 12 months with, alternately, 29 and 30 days, making a year of 354 or 355 days. Because there is no attempt to align this lunar year with the solar year, Muslim months have no relation to the seasons. The months continually move around the year, so major festival observances may, therefore, occur in any season.


Three Kinds of Years
A true year, as opposed to a calendar year, may be defined as the time the Earth takes to return to the same point on its orbit around the sun. But there are several ways of defining the "same point." Astronomers therefore recognize different kinds of year.
The simplest reference point is one on the orbit in which the Earth aligns with the sun and a particular star. Such a point is fixed: It remains the same century after century. The year measured between two successive crossings of such a point is called the sidereal year, from the Latin word sidus, meaning "star," or "planet." It is 365 days, 6 hours, 9 minutes, and 9.5 seconds long.
Another reference is a point on the orbit where the Earth's axis is perpendicular, or at a right angle, to a line from the sun. This occurs twice a year, in the spring and fall. A year measured between successive crossings of one of these points is called the tropical year. Its duration is 365 days, 5 hours, 48 minutes, and 46 seconds. The seasons keep in step with the tropical year because both are based on the position of the Earth's axis. For that reason the calendar year is based on the tropical year.
Still another astronomical reference point is the perihelion, the point on its orbit that the Earth is closest to the sun. The time between crossings of this point is called the anomalistic year. Because the perihelion is moving slowly in the same direction the Earth travels on its orbit, the anomalistic year is the longest of the three types. Its duration is 365 days, 6 hours, 13 minutes, and 53 seconds.


Months, Weeks, and Days
The word month is derived from the Old English word for moon. A month was originally the time between two new moons. Today astronomers refer to this period of time as a lunar month. Its average length is 29 days, 12 hours, 44 minutes, and 2.8 seconds. The moon travels around the Earth in 27 days, 7 hours, 43 minutes, and 11.5 seconds. This is the sidereal month. Calendar months usually differ in length, and all except February are longer than 29 days in order to accommodate the solar year, which is almost 11 days longer than a lunar year.
The names for the months in the present Gregorian calendar are taken from the ancient Roman months of the Julian calendar. January is derived from Janus, a household god of beginnings. He was often depicted facing in two directions. February was the time of a feast of purification called Februa. March was named after Mars, the god of war. April is of uncertain origin. It may be named after the Greek goddess Aphrodite. May is probably derived from the goddess Maia. June was named after the goddess Juno. July and August were named, respectively, after Julius Caesar and his successor, Augustus. The last four months got their names from their original numerical placement in the year. Septem, for instance, is Latin for "seven."
The seven-day week has no astronomical basis. It may well have originated in the Middle East or in the Bible. By the 3rd century AD, the Roman Empire was operating on a week of the same length. The days were named after the then known seven planets: Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, the sun (not distinguished from a planet at the time), Venus, Mercury, and the moon (also considered a planet). The names of days in Latin countries still point to these origins, as do Sunday, Monday, and Saturday in English. Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday, however, are named after the Scandinavian gods Tiw, Woden, Thor, and Frigga.


---------------------------------------------------------
From Compton's Interactive Encyclopedia Deluxe © 1998 The Learning Company, Inc.
[This message has been edited by jrhughes98 (edited November 03, 2000).]
 
Old November 4, 2000, 01:58   #32
Vrank Prins
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quote:

Originally posted by rremus on 11-03-2000 10:58 AM I thought Zero was discovered by Indians and brough to europe by Arabs. I might be wrong...


Could be, I've always thought that ... But it could be !! Somehow you always tend to overlook things which are furthest away. I've tried to find something on that issue in the Encyclopedia Brittanica which is available in the library at my work. But up till now I haven't found any quote on that. Still, fact is that all over the world nowerdays the arabian numerical notation is being used !! And Algebra, in its ethymological roots, is an arabian word too.

Having tapped the breadcrums out of my keyboard, I'd like to work out a few things which came up since my lunchbreak (I haven't been using my computer this afternoon). I'm trying to elaborated on things Ribannah came up with. Nice set of idea's !!

1st Calendar
prereq.> Astronomy
effect > increased farmingproduction (one shief extra per tile ?!) + increased happiness, only with temple !!(10% ?!)
The calendar gives structure to life. You can plan more accurately what your going do to, f.i. ploughing, sowing, harvest etc.. This cycle of live was also picked up by the clergy/priesthood. All kinds of ceremonies and festivities where developed arranged and managed by them on set dates, Thanksgiving, Sinterklaas (first he visits the dutch and flemish on the 5th of december, and with the left-overs on), Christmas (he's going elsewhere)

2d forestry (Ribannah, I take it that's what you mean with "foraging" ?!)
I don't think that should appear as a single advancement in the game. Forestry, as far as I know, in the antique times, has never been of any concern. It is known that when the greeks started building their large fleets, they just stripped large section of land of timber. That caused heavy erosion and as you might say, an ecological catastrophe. Allthough they were a bit more cautious, the same was with the Romans. There is a theory which says that the Mediterranean is still suffering from the ecological hazards from that time.
Forestry is a phenomenon which developed in the mid-18th century. Shipbuilding in that time and a bit later on mining demanded such high quantities of timber that plans needed to be made to ensure a certain "timberharvest". I've been told during a excursion on a holiday around the harbour of Kinsale (Ireland, some 15 km. due south from Cork), which used to be a British navalbase up to the mid of the 19th century, that for the building of one Man-0-War (the fiercest and largest navalship of its time), about 65 hectare's of timberland needed to be logged down. About half the surface of Ireland has been stripped of its timber for that reason.

That brings me to a few other things which I think would add historical realism and accuracy to the game, and !!!!!!! which would also increase the challenge and fun of playing (a bit).
I sometimes build a city in a forest just for the reason that from the start you have certain flow of shields which will make production of whatever go. Without any improvement to the tile you get three shields out of a forest. Why not make that two untill the development of either Bronze- or Iron-working. Production should benefit from better axes !!!
This is something which I believe I've read about in another thread too, erosion. Agriculture in ancient times very often suffered from erosion. Or said in different how to handle it. This sometimes caused whole communities/civs/colonies to collapse. I haven't been able to think of anything of how this could be brought into the game, but somehow I think it's possible.
It would be nice to have a few setbacks in the game, makes things more challenging.
[This message has been edited by Vrank Prins (edited November 03, 2000).]
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Old November 6, 2000, 04:06   #33
rremus
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quote:

Originally posted by Vrank Prins on 11-03-2000 12:58 PM
Could be, I've always thought that ... But it could be !! Somehow you always tend to overlook things which are furthest away. I've tried to find something on that issue in the Encyclopedia Brittanica which is available in the library at my work. But up till now I haven't found any quote on that. Still, fact is that all over the world nowerdays the arabian numerical notation is being used !! And Algebra, in its ethymological roots, is an arabian word too.



quote:

Zero was invented (or discovered) in 8th century India and soon came to the attention of one of the great unsung heroes of mathematics Al-Khwarizmi, an Arab Mathematician who published an arithmetic textbook in 820AD. Al-Khwarizmi invented a circle to stand for the number zero.


Thats what I found on it, at a doubious url: http://www.room103.com/archive/q_zeromyhero.htm

Related to the general idea of the thread, we all tend to neglect discoveries and facts happend too far in time. Our ancestors weren't dumber than us! In fact, they were pretty smart. If we take only mathematics, some modern algebric theories were well known in ancient times. I think there still are theories wich we cannot demonstrate today. If I remeber correctly, the ancient greeks prooved that any even number is the sum of two prime numbers. We cannot.
For our europen memory, 'modern' science is the result of last 4 or 5 centuries of research. The ancients had 4 or 5 thousand years to think at they problems...
I think the game should devote more of the play to those glorious ancestors.
Take for instance the city walls and the attacking units. In ancient cities, a city wall would not 'double' the defense force, would make the city inexpugnable unless the attckers were havieng specialised siege weaponry, like siege towers. I heard the romans were quite good in these fields. If the attacker had no siege weapons, they could only try to starve the sieged city.

We also tend to think at huge ammounts of time as a 'short' period. The Egyptians lasted for thousand of years. They final fall is closer to our days than to their beginning! We mix together various migrations, yet they happened at hundreds of years appart!

I would create a whole scenario based only on the pre-historic and ancient civs. Ending with Feudalism.
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Old November 6, 2000, 12:40   #34
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About the propose to change calendar reference, I saw this same concept on a thread almost a year ago.

The idea is interesting, may be funny too, at the first glance, and surely more accurate than message about "things happening 2500 years before something not happening yet" (I remember someone joking about: "look, it is almost year 1: what will happen tomorrow? ).

The true is that common calendar (for modern business, if nothing else) is around Jesus Christ birthday (I'm not speaking about religion, only as current time "milestone", largely accepted "as is" also by different religions).

This is our "link" to real history, almost a kind of "benchmark" about our game: I've just discovered the flight in 1810 a.d.! fine, I'm doing very well in research! or Hmmm, my first chariot in 1950 a.d.? Better put some coins to the scientist, I'm a bit out of business

I know in game term I can be loosing the game on the former example, while winning it on the latter, but a kind of benchmarking with reality help with that sense of accomplishment we love too much in Civ.

If someone can add Mayan or fantasy calendar to actual "handle with history has we learn it" I will vote for him/her!

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Old November 7, 2000, 01:13   #35
Vrank Prins
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quote:

Originally posted by Shogun Gunner on 11-03-2000 09:16 PM
Are talking about just erosion or all type of weather calamities? Tornados, Hurricanes, mudslides, storms (could sink ships), flooding...


I'm talking about erosion as a structural problem, not the single incidents (chaostheory ~ all accidental events together make up a structure). When you don't know how to handle what's happening to you again and again, landslides, dustbowls, floods, etc. (even the most subtle forms of erosion) or non-erosion problems like soil becoming salty or soil getting exhausted, because of wrong ways of irrigation or for lack of fertilizer or a good agricultural merit, you have a structural problem. And that's what happened to a lot of former cultures.
I, most certainly !!, am not suggesting that single accidents should be introduced into the game (maybe one the plaque).
The point is that in earlier days (and why not speak for our own time, pollution) certain ways of doing things had bad effects in the long run. A bit like the globalwarming problem we have now in CIV, but far more severe. I would like it if these structural problems* were introduced into the game. (*from agricultural, hygienical (health), economical or sociological nature (whatever)). Somehow, and it's being said before in this thread, I think too the game is to optimistic.
When these problems occur it should be so that the solution lies a few advancements away. That would mean that in the time needed to get there, slowly but steadily things will start to dwindle over a longer period of time.

Now there's a challenge!!
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Old November 7, 2000, 01:15   #36
Vrank Prins
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quote:

Originally posted by Shogun Gunner on 11-03-2000 09:16 PM
Are talking about just erosion or all type of weather calamities? Tornados, Hurricanes, mudslides, storms (could sink ships), flooding...


I'm talking about erosion as a structural problem, not the single incidents (chaostheory ~ all accidental events together make up a structure). When you don't know how to handle what's happening to you again and again, landslides, dustbowls, floods, etc. (even the most subtle forms of erosion) or non-erosion problems like soil becoming salty or soil getting exhausted, because of wrong ways of irrigation or for lack of fertilizer or a good agricultural merit, you have a structural problem. And that's what happened to a lot of former cultures.
I, most certainly !!, am not suggesting that single accidents should be introduced into the game (maybe one the plaque).
What I want to say is that, in earlier days (and why not speak for our own time, pollution) certain ways of doing things had bad effects in the long run. A bit like the globalwarming problem we have now in CIV, but far more severe. I would like it if these structural problems* were introduced into the game. (*from agricultural, hygienical (health), economical or sociological nature (whatever)). Somehow, and it's being said before in this thread, I think too the game is to optimistic.
When these problems occur it should be so that the solution lies a few advancements away. That would mean that slowly but steadily things will start to dwindle over a longer period of time.
Now there's a challenge!!
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