Twilight of the Mind is out!

[Frankychan]

No offence to Hydro,

When I read 'Twilight of the Mind' it was clear to me that the captured Ideal who was sent to the Penitence Square was the one to modify the Planet Buster for the Singularity Core.

But Santiago living? Come on! We all know she got her butt vaporized!

[Hydro]

FC,

I disagree with your assessment that even a super human Ideal would know, intuitively, how to do this – we are talking about a super secret and ultra specialized technology here that has progressed beyond mere abstract theory. And would his amazing intellect survive Miriam’s gentle ministrations of Penitence Square? Somehow I doubt that his subtle mind would have any edge left to form a working theory of a microsingularity, much less how to adapt it to a planetbuster. Moreover, even if he knew how he wouldn’t have the equipment to do so – Miriam’s society can’t even feed its citizens, much less fund anything approaching a scientific lab or form a highly developed industrial base.

As to Santiago, I said she went down fighting, as she should.

Hydro

[Frankychan]

Originally posted by Hydro
FC,

I disagree with your assessment that even a super human Ideal would know, intuitively, how to do this – we are talking about a super secret and ultra specialized technology here that has progressed beyond mere abstract theory. And would his amazing intellect survive Miriam’s gentle ministrations of Penitence Square? Somehow I doubt that his subtle mind would have any edge left to form a working theory of a microsingularity, much less how to adapt it to a planetbuster. Moreover, even if he knew how he wouldn’t have the equipment to do so – Miriam’s society can’t even feed its citizens, much less fund anything approaching a scientific lab or form a highly developed industrial base.

Hydro

touche. I respect your view but still think that the Ideal would figure out how to adapt the singularity core to the planet buster's warhead. But you do bring up points that I never thought of!

Still like the book though.

[Hydro]

FC,

I can respect that. Much of what was in Ely’s books was innovative, and some bits that were downright brilliant (particularly in Book 2). Most of my gripes might be ascribed to having too literal a mind, or just plain ‘ol personal taste. To each his own.

Hydro

[Frankychan]

Originally posted by Hydro

To each his own.

Hydro

True that, my colleague.

[Atlas3060]

Im gonna miss my leader!
Oh well I might as well switch, but I am NOT gonna be a Believer

[Atlas3060]

I got one question.
If Shenji Yang is in prison, and Miriam and Mia are busting continents.
Where's Shenji now?

[Hydro]

**WARNING - PLOT INFO REVIELED**

That is not entirely clear, although at the end of Book 2 I got the impression he would die in prison. I'd have to review the book to see if longevity treatments would be offered, but I seem to recall they were not.

[Atlas3060]

Thanks man.

[Ishtar]

I just finished Centauri Dawn and couldn't put it down. Read every day on my lunch hour til I finished it. I'm getting ready to start Dragon Sun and will be hitting Barnes & Noble for Twilight!

Haven't played the Game; but, after reading the books, I just might have to give it a shot!!

[AMD4EVER]

I know it has been quite some time since this trilogy was written but I just
found out about these stories about a month ago. I've read all 3 books in
that time and would like to share some of my opinions on these books.

Book 1 was excellent I thought. Especially the references to events that
took place back on earth. The part about the 7 minute was between India and
Pakistan almost seemed like it could come true for a little while there!
The early years of the factions were also quite interesting. It would be a
very strange world to wake up in like Jahn did. Mind worms attacking,
alliance of the Unity broken up, family members dead, and questions about
who even survived the planet fall. I thought it was a great book and it
lead me to buy the next 2 books.

Book 2 was my least favorite even though many here have said it is their
favorite. The reason I didn't like it is because it didn't stick with the
sequence of events in the real game, namely the fact that Santiago had hover
tanks so soon and Skye had sky farms (remember this for Book 3 section).
Also the week long attack on Skye by Morgan and Santiago with all their
advanced weaponry obviously didn't even destroy the Gaians, yet one quick
swift attack by the Hive completely crushed the army of both of those
factions and left everyone cowering in fear of the Hive. Ugh, it just
doesn't happen that way in the game especially by a team under equip troops
against a stocked up army. The Skye talking with planet part and the
Virtual World as a means of seeing into others minds didn't appeal to me
either. And of course the fact that the mind worms stormed the building all
the leaders were in yet none of them even got hurt while in Book 3 mind
worms from a long distance away were hurting them all. Doesn't mesh very
well. Yang dying to his own clone and then his daughter hooking up with him
seemed a little...sick. Its like father and daughter knocking boots! I
don't care if its a clone, that is just wrong! lol Well anyways the
original Yang dying also really ruined the book. I never really liked him
but at least I could have a picture in my head of what this guy looked like
and how he would act. The new Yang was just some other guy who should have
long been dead.

Book 3 was my favorite, not because of the ending obviously, but rather
because it was Science vs Religion for the most part. I loved all the Zak
and Morgan parts where they were basically minding their own business but
always keeping an eye out for the only real danger left on the planet which
just happened to be from the most backward civilization, the Believers. I
was really hoping that Miriam would die in the initial attack since she is
just a dictator using mind control over her followers in the first place.
What an annoying thought of having her as a leader going against the grain
of all logic! Well skipping ahead to the end of the book, I really didn't
like the contradictions between the game and the book. Not only that but
the fact that the game had many similarities to real life while both were
contradicted by the book. First off, the loss of the home base was
equivalent to the loss of every base obviously. After 1 base was lost, Zak
was basically completely unable to launch a single attack, air or ground.
That makes no sense at all. His drop troops should have killed Miriam soon
after the mindworms dispersed and they found out where she was and while the
headquarters were still in tact but I guess that had to be avoided to so
that the book could have this gloomy ending. Oh and recall Skyes sky farms
in book 2. Where are the defense pods in book 3, 140 years after book 2?
And if they don't have defense pods, what deterrence do they have? You
saying they are all too dumb to even have any deterrence against other nukes?
If not, why didn't they sneak in a nuke to destroy all of New Jerusalem
before she could retal? Being just a few kilometers away, Zak could easily
have launched such a surprise attack. But no, he had no planet busters or
defense pods. Forgive me for not believing the worlds most powerful faction
wouldn't have any deterrence to nuclear war! Oh and why didn't Morgan simply
send a lit explosive over seas when the 2 teleporters were linked? That
would have ended the Hive right there and then and destroyed the other
teleporter. Oh guess he was too dumb for that as well Ok I guess I'm
being a little harsh towards a book I enjoyed so much. But going over all
the information from the game, real life, and the other books, I can happily
say that I know for a fact that Zak, Morgan, Lal, Santiago, and Skye would
all have easily overwhelmed Miriam and the Hive had this been a more
realistic strategy on their part.

One final thing. Was there a message that the writer of this book was
trying to convey about Sciences vs Religion? I mean the religious people
were all single minded freaks who were practically without any thought
process other than to do what some invisible man told a woman who is barely
able to lead her follower much less feed them. The scientist stood for what
was good for the world, even if he did have to break a few rules along the
way. For instance, the ideal he made was against the law, but its just like
cloning in real life today. Eventually we will have to do it else perhaps
another country will do it before us, get far better at it, and destroy us
with it. Its just something that had to be done and it was with good
intentions that he did it. And as a final farewell, Zak even gave his
allies access to 200 year of paradise while Miriam dropped some nukes,
killed 20 million people at least with them, and millions more including her
own with the fact that mindworms were attacking and of course dirt would
block out the sun shortly. Selfish Miriam even knew she was destroying the
world yet pinned all of her efforts on the fact that she had a dream. That
dream killed her and maybe another hundred million people. So was this the
message that was trying to be sent here? Is the author trying to say that
religion is the wrong way to go while science is the correct way?

[spartak]

It really must be time for this thread to sink in shame and be "un-topped" or made less sticky (whatever the phrasiology is)!

[AMD4EVER]

Maybe, but I'm still here! Just awaiting the day that I will get a reply to my post :P

Anyways, I'm writting a part 4 to the AC books. Hope to have it finished in the next month. Doubt many people will even read it but hey, I'm having fun anyways

[Crisler]

Mr Ely,

First I am really enjoying your work. Your books are fun to read and follow the feel of the game very well.

Is there a chance any more novels based on this game might be coming soon? This world is so rich in possibilities that books would seem to have endless stories waiting to be written.

Edward

[Spoot]

OK, as a complete newbie on this board I would like to ask a question.

Could someone please list all the book titles, author, and if possible ISBN Number.

Thanks

Spoot

[Hydro]

Spoot,

The Alpha Centauri trilogy by Michael Ely consists of:

Centauri Dawn
Centauri Sun
Centauri Twlight

I don't know the ISBN #s since I gave my books away.

Hydro

[Crisler]

Well I have really dug into Twilight of the Mind, I am not yet done but I find much of what I read disturbing.

Some Spoilers Below
First you have a society based on Faith in God, in fact based on Christian Principles. Yet they seem to duck a number of them, for instance the New Lords Prayer, a true beliver would never mess with the Word of God. Second the references to God being female, again the Fundamentalist view is strongly swung against.

Next we find the start of the problem, the Univerasity launches a premediated attack to cover a crime against the UN Charter. Now by the end of this attack the UN must now what was going on, I find it hard to believe they would not have some form of noticed. The University has killed thousands of innocent people and possibly another faction leader, yet ZERO action is taken to punish the University for their actions.

When Mirriam is found alive she finds the UN did NOTHING to defend her people so she does what she must to seek retribution from the enemy. (Now in fairness the attack against the Morgans had nothing to do with that so I am not counting thme in this section)

In her effort to do anything it takes to fight back against a superior force she is branded as evil and the University is seen as a blameless victim. Man talk about pure BS.

Overall it is a well written book but the subject matter is poorly covered. The plot is interesting but I find it a bit to simplistic.

I mean think about it, people that have begun to be unhappy with their lives and seek something bigger leave and go toe Mirriams group but she as branded as bad for them daring to join her, lets get real.

Also I have never agreed with the way the Belivers are portraited in the game or the book. Being a Christian does not mean you do not look for advancements in science. I do believe in a Christian society they would be slower, but that is due to spending time doing a moral evaluation of each discovery so the society can be held accountable for any effect the discover might have.

Overall I found the book to be an interesting idea but poorly executed.

E.L. Crisler

[Haon]

One Trilogy I would really like to read would be about the history of the Progenitors and how there civil war began, that would be very intresting!

[Bearcat]

Having read all of Micheal Ely's books, I think I enjoyed Centauri Dawn the most, although I was a little dissapointed that Jahn was killed in the end along with his son. My question for Michael, is what made you decide to portray the Believers as being so backwards. Usually in the game, the Believers manage to keep up with the other factions, I just never though of them as being so medieval

Also, do the Spartans and Believers have standing armies like that of the Peacekeepers or University or were the Myrmidons and Templars the closest to actual enlisted soldiers that those two factions have?

Nice work though, I hope you choose to write more about SMAC or SMAC-X.

[michael_ely]

Wow, I haven't checked this thread in awhile. But since I checked back, here are a few thoughts:

I agree that Miriam could have easily been slanted toward a more science-friendly Christian faith. She is backwards in book 3 for maximum contrast with technology, the theme of this book (as book 1 was war vs peace and book 2 was commerce vs nature). The reason the Council sides with Zak is that Zak is part of the Council and Miriam (for purposes of this book) is not...Zak has all the friends in high places. The University, as a social organism, is threatened by Miriam and so defends itself by labeling her evil and marshalling allies against her. But the reader does not have to agree with the Council’s actions.

The ending. Yes, hmm, not liked by many. When I wrote this book I didn't want an ending that was like any of the game endings, which had already been "written" in the game. That left out straight conquering, transcendence, cornering the energy market, and being voted supreme leader.

Actually, the original planned ending for the book was that there would be some sort of temporal warp, and some cross section of humanity would get a chance to go back in time to Earth before the apocalypse and stop the course of destruction there. The dilemma of doing this is that they would then undo all of the learning and wisdom that humanity had achieved in the meantime.

But, time travel didn't feel right in the context of the SMAC world. So I decided to change it to a kind of virtual world rescue of Earth...a cross section of leaders would, in their minds (and so to them, in reality) travel back and save Earth, and have to make the same choice. Of course Pravin would be heavily involved, and his Earth Pria. That single human relationship, to me, embodies the troubles and hope of humanity through the novels. All the more interesting because you don’t really meet original Pria…she only says one word in the entire trilogy, in the prologue to Centauri Dawn.

But, during the writing of the book, it kind of shifted to the dark ending as it was published. I can't say why, except maybe that I was living in Minnesota at the time and that affected my mood If I had to do it again I would probably shift to a more positive ending, perhaps with Pravin becoming supreme leader.

That said, I believe Pravin surviving with Pria does give the book a somewhat hopeful ending. One goal in these books was to explore the individual relationships that you don't see in an epic god-game such as SMAC…all the lives that are affected every time you plow that tank unit into the enemy city. Pravin is the central character in that regard; if he survives, hope survives. It would be a lot different if, say, Santiago was the one who made it to the hidden base. Originally there was also an epilogue, with Pravin and Pria landing in the Gaian base and being welcomed by the Talents there, but that got taken out before the book was published.

Most people I've seen play SMAC in a bloodthirsty way. They relish the conquering of the enemy, rejoice in wiping out cities, and love the chaos of the planet buster. Actually, I like that aspect as well. It seems to be part of human nature, and the books say...is it? Should it be? Can it not be?

As to my own favorite of the three books, my opinion (which doesn’t count for much!) is that I like book 2 the best. I had the most time to write it and I personally love the climax, with Deirdre and Yang, two characters who are so different and so at odds, traveling back through their lives together in the planetmind and fully understanding one another. These little moments of understanding punctuate the three books…Santiago and Lal at the end of the first book, Skye and Yang here, and the leaders at the end of book three before they go into the virtual world. The book 2 climax sort of happened as I was writing, and surprised me as much as if I had been a first-time reader, which is always fun.

Anyway, there were never plans for more than three SMAC books. To those who liked them, I’m glad, and I have read every comment here, that I was emailed at bookthoughts@yahoo.com, and on amazon. I’ve considered all the feedback, good and bad, for the future.

[Qualicide]

I can't believe you nuked the Spartans.. couldn't you have Miram's technologicaly inept follower set off the thing instead?

[AMD4EVER]

Although it is probably a little late in the AC lifecycle to present new information in hopes that it will benefit anyones, I'll still post this map I made for the AC 3rd book:

http://www.geocities.com/amd_4ever/Files/ACMap.bmp

--This map is taken directly from AC so at least the land is where it should be.
--The borders I did the best I could with. I've recently been messing around with where the University land is so if it looks a little wierd right now it is because I haven't gone through to clean it up much.
--The big pinkish/red dots are the homebase for each faction.
--The nukes and circles declare the area damaged by each planet buster. The book sort of indicated that the nukes fell on the capitals of Morgan and Santiago, however I couldn't have that happen and at the same have the locations of the capitals in agreement to where I believed Book 1 indicated they were.

Something you Santiago fans might agree or disagree with is that if Santiago was in Sparta Command, she could have realistically survived because of how far away she probably was from the planet buster blast.


On another note, my fictional book referencing occurrances post-AC book 3 is still in progress just as it has been since I started it about a year ago meaning it will probably never get done. However I'm re-reading the book now and planning on continuing my book soon. If anyone is interested I'll post some of the chapters here. I'm adding in the rise of several SMAX factions.

[AMD4EVER]

“Graffiti from the walls of the Journey Room inside Hardrock Mountain”

To whomever may find this cave sometime in the future, this is a message from those who were here before you. We were a people of another planet who came here to escape the wrongs of our past world and to start over. We had hoped that seeing the truths of our past would help us build a different world here on Planet Chiron, when in fact it was just a repeat of the past we had hoped were buried light years away from here. The world we leave now symbolizes the wrongs. Yet the Night tree that we have planted here symbolizes all that we as a race have done right. For all the beauty and wonder that was created and all the amazing accomplishments of our people. I don’t know what lies on the other side of this life, but I know whatever it is, I will never forget this life or the people who were with me throughout it.
-Lady Deirdre Skye

[Datajack Franit]

Can you just add "spoilers! don't read!" to your posts

[Ravenloff]

Not to be too cynical, but I gave up after the first novel. IMHO, the author wasn't just subltly showing his bias, rather he was hitting us in the face with a frying pan labeled "my beliefs".

The U.N. the only faction with honor and integrity? Love for family? The Spartans came off as far worse than Star Trek's Klingons, which it seemed like he was aping. The only religious faction showing up in rags, starving and wild-eyed.

I consider myself a generalist-moderate on most things, but his first book smacked of left-wing propaganda. Perhaps I judged too harshly by not reading the other novels, but I can only take force-feeding for so long.

[electro]

Originally posted by AMD4EVER

http://www.geocities.com/amd_4ever/Files/ACMap.bmp

Can you please repost the map...
the link doesnt work

[AdmKoronis]

Mister Ely, in response, I dont think everyone is like that, i mean slash and burn and kill. Well i play very much like Pravin Lal, concentrating on internal affairs but with a strong army to defend. Most of the time its Miriam or Santiago or Yang who spoil my day and im forced to smash them till they say: oh please mister koronis....i give up...., i hope you can talk to me over MSN messenger, im very anxious to talk to the guy who created this wonderful universe.

[The diplomat]

I just bought Twilight of the Mind yesterday. I am at the point where Mia kills Yang and takes over the Hive. I am loving it! It is the best book of the 3 so far.

Now I have read a few spoilers, so I know there is a planet buster somewhere. But let me finish it on my own. Don't tell me how it ends exactly.

Did anyone notice that the singularity gun is called a "sin gun". Considering that the University is fighting the Believers, isn't it interesting that his weapon is called a sin gun?

How exactly does a sin gun work? The book says it is a cannon powered by an artificial black hole. There are passages that suggests that it is almost as powerful as a planet buster. Is the black hole just the power source, or does the cannon shoot black holes? I imagined that it shoots a black hole which evaporates on target causing a large planet buster like explosion.

I have to say, wouldn't it be great if the book were made into a super epic movie? There are scenes like the one where the Believers are worshipping and the University drop troops attack, that could be done really well on screen! Of course, some of the nude and sex scenes would have to be cut to avoid a TV-MA rating!

[The diplomat]

I finished the book. wow. what a read! It is brilliant and horrific at the same time. The whole story is so thought provoking! I love the ending. In a way, the Journey Room is a sort of technological heaven. So it is an ironic end for the factions considering that they don't believe in the Believers' theology.

The book would make an amazing movie. Just imagine the ending where the camera would move across the torn, devastated, utterly destroyed and lifeless planet, and then the camera would move down the corridor into the mountain and into the Journey Room to reveal the faction leaders motionless in cryocells with Deirdre's little tree sitting the corner. The End. Now that would be a powerful ending to see on screen!

[Barinthus]

Originally posted by The diplomat
Now I have read a few spoilers, so I know there is a planet buster somewhere. But let me finish it on my own. Don't tell me how it ends exactly.

And you just told me how it ends. Typing "Spoilers Caution" or something akin would have been a form of courtsey.

Ah well at least I can narrow my reading list by a bit.