Commodities List

[Dom Pedro II]

Here's something for the supporters of the Market System. These are not like the meaningless commodities of Civ 2. These have a real effect on the game.

The first 3 categories are strictly raw materials that are needed as fuel, needed to produce units, to produce or manufactured commodities.

Maufactured Commodities are commodities that are produced in cities with certain city improvements and a supply of a raw material either from the surrounding tiles or imported from other cities.

Luxury Commodities are commodities that help raise a city's revenues, decrease unhappiness, and attract better people to cities.

Food Commodities are commodities that cause huge boosts in a city's food supplies (Rice and Potatoes in particular) in addition to the simple grains. Meat acts almost as a luxury since it adds some variety to food and is usually only bought by those with money.

Non-Tradables are commodities that are mined from the ground and simply increase a player's treasury by a certain amount every turn.

Note: Plantations are special tile squares that can be built on tiles of the right type that allow a city to supply the commodity of that kind of plantation. These tiles can be built after the proper technologies are discovered.

• Ancient Commodities
• Wood - needed to produce sailing ships (w/ Shipwright) needed to produce Catapults (all forest squares produce wood)
• Clay (all rivers squares supply clay)
• Copper
• Tin
  
  Modern Commodities
• Cotton (can be grown on plantations)
• Oil (fuel)
• Coal (fuel)
• Uranium (fuel - not for units)
• Aluminum
  
  No Time Period Commodities
• Iron - needed to produce Legions & Ironclads (w/ Shipwright)
• Sheep (produces wool)
• Rubber - needed to supply mechanized units
• Horses - needed to produce cavalry units (w/ Stables)
• Elephants - needed to produce Elephant units (w/ Stables)
• Stone - used for buildings and some wonders.
  
  Manufactured Commodities
• Steel - made from Iron at a Steel mill improvement
• Clothes (luxury) - made from cotton or wool at a Textile mill improvement
• Pottery - made from clay at a Potter
• Bronze - made from copper at a Bronzesmith
• Cars (luxury) - made from steel & rubber at Factory improvement
• Paper - made from Wood without need for city improvement
  
  Luxury Commodities
• Sugar (can be grown on plantations)
• Gems
• Wine
• Tea
• Coffee
• Spice
• Tobacco
  
  Food Commodities
• Potato (can be grown on plantations)
• Rice (can be grown on plantations)
• Fish (all ocean squares supply fish)
• Cattle (produces meat)
  
• Non-tradable Commodities[/b]
• Gold
• Silver

An further additions to this list? Disagreements?

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"...The highest realization of warfare is to attack the enemy's plans; next is to attack their alliances; next to attack their army; and the lowest is to attack their fortified cities." - Sun Tzu

Dom Pedro II.... aka Hannibal3

Dom Pedro II - 2nd and last Emperor of the Empire of Brazil (1831 - 1889).
[This message has been edited by Dom Pedro II (edited October 29, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Dom Pedro II (edited October 29, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Dom Pedro II (edited October 29, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Dom Pedro II (edited November 04, 2000).]

[Shogun Gunner]

I would had uranium and maybe a handful more elements like aluminum. Great idea. I think you will find a lot of support for this concept.

[jdlessl]

Potatoes and Rice: I assume that 'Potatoes' is meant to represent any easily grown crop that yields a decent amount of food, while 'Rice' means a crop that requires a large investment of labor and much greater upkeep, but yields correspondingly larger harvests per acre. If so, I like the idea, but don't think it's entirely necessary. Nor are the Cattle and Fish. I think a simple 'Food' commodity would suffice. How much you get depends on what kind of effort you've put into developing the land.

Luxuries: Same problem as with food. Why so many? But if you must have some, I'd throw in Coffee (see below), Chocolate, and Recreational Drugs.

Rubber: Makes a transition from a natural to a manufactured commodity. Can someone tell me what natural rubber was used for in centuries past?

Wood: While deforestation was particularly difficult to accomplish ages ago, it has become altogether easy these days. How about forest squares having a harvesting limit and natural replenishment rate (modified somewhat by pollution) which would serve to limit how much you can get from a given square. Similarly with the other resources, like Oil and Coal, which have massive starting supplies, but do not replenish. Recycling would provide metals without having to mine for them. I suppose, though, that if we go far enough into the future the civ can just tap the core or nab some asteroids and scarf down a few trillion tons of metal.

Gold & Silver: Just mine money straight out of the ground, don't bother with real commodities.

Cars: How about Machine Parts instead? Airplanes, ships, etc, don't require cars.

Steel: Doesn't necessarily require a Steel Mill, though it would increase production immensely.

Electronics; manufactured. Used for the latest and greatest weapons systems and for certain modern city/civ improvements.

Stone; ancient. Used in many buildings, especially city walls and such.

Uranium; Modern. Power plants and fision-based weapons. Obsolete with fusion plants or cold fusion.

Coffee: Boosts production by 25% and decreases # of Electronics required by 50% (keeps those techies 24/7).

Paper: Made from wood, needed for libraries and bureaucracies. Use is decreased somewhat with the advent of computers. You know it's said that the US government buys one out of every 10 paper clips manufactured in the US.

Jared Lessl

[Dom Pedro II]

Coffee! I'm Brazilian and I forgot coffee!

The reason why there are so many luxuries is that I wanted there to be commodities that have been important to the world. Sugar and Tea have been interconnected with the activities of countries since 1500 AD and even before. Countries have had colonies for centuries for the purposes of raw materials and luxury goods such as these. They have fought wars to control them. The other thing is that each luxury increases the cities wealth. These commodities are naturally consumed by the city, and raise taxes collected by attracting more affluent people.

Actually, I made several errors when I did this... Cars were supposed to be added as a luxury as well. A city without a supply of cars is hardly a center these days. Clothes are also a manufactured luxury. Big cities without mass produced clothes at hand will not survive for long.

Potatoes and Rice were for the same reason as luxuries. Grains like corn and wheat can be found in one form or another around the world. These should be every city's starting food supply since one kind can be found everywhere. Potatoes were, at one time, only found in the New World, and rice came from Asia. That is why they are their own commodities here. The fact is that we rarely consider how different things were before 1500 and how much things changed as far as people's diets afterward. Look at Ireland. They took the Potato, a strictly New World crop, and it became the most important thing they grew. Without such an exchange of food, many places could not have experienced the growths that they did. As I said before, a city importing or growing either of these will have an ample food supply.

Cattle is on there because it was a booming industry in the United States for a period in the 1800s, and because it is an important part of people's diets today, and at one time was a luxury for many people. The other reason is because of the fact that horses and elephants are there and it makes sense to include other animals that have been important to societies.

Natural rubber actually was used until a synthetic version became widely used after World War II.

I was unsure about Paper and thought I'd wait until after I got a response to add it. Uranium will be added as well. I had considered adding a Computers or Electronics commodity, but it is manufactured and all of the other manufactured products come from natural ones. I would need some way to control who can and can not supply Electronics. Third world countries can not simply begin providing the world with its supply of Windows and more importantly Civilization games.

Gold and Silver: I really just meant that these should be resource tiles on the map that generate income.

I would have added more elements like Aluminium, but I wasn't sure what a practical use could be for them in game terms. In other words, what units would they be used for? What benefit do they have to serve the masses directly? If I get some good answers, I'll add them.

Good points, about running out of resources. It should definitely be true about Coal, Oil, Uranium, Copper, Gold, and Silver.

I would add Recreational Drugs to the luxuries, but I'm not sure if the people at Firaxis want us civers to be growing vast fields of Cannabis.
[This message has been edited by Dom Pedro II (edited October 29, 2000).]

[Shogun Gunner]

Aluminum could be a pre-req for an airplane unit and airlifting.

I mentioned that one as an example. If the goods correlate to my science advances then they can be part of the strategy.

A great list here just between you two guys.

[Dom Pedro II]

Thanks, Shogun Gunner. Okay, I'll add Aluminum. It could also be used for building the space ship and other wonders or city improvements.

I've also decided to add Tin since it is important to the making of Bronze.

Another important commodity in history has been Furs but I'm not sure whether to put it in. Thoughts?

[UltraSonix]

quote: uranium

I've been a very strong supporter for civs to actually be in possession of uranium to build nukes. Hence the civ/s in control of uranium would be able to make a lot of money from the sale of their uranium, but might come to regret it later. Hence the game is spiced up considerably - should I sell the uranium or not.

There's old threads on this issue, but I won't bother looking them up as DarkCloud's probably got them linked from his links thread.

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards... Despite any stupid advertisments you may see to the contrary...

[Biddles]

... and since Australia controls something like 30% of the worlds uranium that put's us vin a good position.

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- Biddles

"Now that our life-support systems are utilising the new Windows 2027 OS, we don't have to worry about anythi......."
Mars Colonizer Mission

[UltraSonix]

Don't tell 'em that! (Did you read the how would you take over the world thread in OT? )


I noticed that DC's links thread doesn't have the uranium threads from before, so here they are:

*Uranium for nukes (the most relevant thread)
*Make world trade important (only my posts mention uranium, I think)
*Black market (minor mention by me)

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards... Despite any stupid advertisments you may see to the contrary...
[This message has been edited by UltraSonix (edited October 30, 2000).]

[Nikolai]

OK, we are in the late 1500s. Conquestadores/explorers have just discovered potatoes in the Inka(?) kingdom. Now, we could build a city here and then get the potatoes, but in real life the potatoes were sent back to Europe. How will you do this in the game?

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Who am I? What am I? Do we need Civ? Yes!!
[email]birteaw@online.no[email]

[Evil Capitalist]

OK- a few minor gripes:

cars are usually made near the place where they are sold (at least the same country). If a brand wants a large share of the market production is often based in the country of sale, or a nearby third country. Either way I don't think it is suited to civ- style trade.

Another commodity is spices- this was the backbone for the entire Dutch empire.

Also tobacco is needed as a luxury item.

I think a general 'consumer goods' item would serve well, representing anything from motorbikes to cameras. A city could take multiple shipments at once. Also, perhaps, an 'electronic goods' item, although this could just be a revenue increase on consumer goods.

[Builder]

one word for all of you : "simplicity".

[Shogun Gunner]

quote: Originally posted by UltraSonix on 10-30-2000 12:13 AM uranium I've been a very strong supporter for civs to actually be in possession of uranium to build nukes. Hence the civ/s in control of uranium would be able to make a lot of money from the sale of their uranium, but might come to regret it later. Hence the game is spiced up considerably - should I sell the uranium or not.

Very interesting point. I had not thought of that. It, of course, makes perfect sense.

[Dom Pedro II]

quote: Now, we could build a city here and then get the potatoes, but in real life the potatoes were sent back to Europe. How will you do this in the game?

There is a point about being able to be grown on plantations. What that means is that a civilization can build plantations at any city on the proper terrain once you have come across the plant. The required technology is also needed since certain plants do not come in very high yields without certain advances. Cotton is the prime example.

Tobacco and Spices will be added. I definitely thought that uranium should be used for building nukes. Everybody shouldn't be able to construct nukes.

But you damn Australians better stay in line!

I think manufactured Consumer Goods is a good idea as are Electronic Goods, but again, I need a way to determine who can supply them.

Builder, I realize your objections to a seemingly complex system, but in fact economics is the foundation of civilization. Its a shame its been neglected for as long as it has. If we do nothing else, we should create a market system.

[tonic]

This is only a minor gripe about the impracticability and restrictions on the transport and importation of live-stock and large animals in some countries eg Australia. While horses seem universal, I don't know about how widespread elephants are despite the fact the Civ2 has the unit available through polytheism.

I think the classification provides a useful basis for future development. There have been previous discussions about the availability of commodities as a function of the terrain specials available to a city. And I made the point that to accommodate the welcome increase in the number of commodities, there should be a corresponding increase in the number of terrain specials.

[Dom Pedro II]

Tonic, the whole point of the Elephant and Horse commodities is because elephants and horses aren't found worldwide. I was rather irritated by the fact that on a World Map, the Americans and Sioux were building horse and elephant units when the Americas don't even have them. So in this game, to build either of those units, you need a supply of horses or a city next to a horse terrain or ranch. (The reason for the ranch is that otherwise horses would only be available to a civilization on the Asian steppe.)

And also about the terrain specials. I never actually said it because I thought it was assumed, but each of the naturally occuring commodities has its own terrain special. Only wood, fish, clay, and stone don't because they are found almost everywhere in their own terrain types. The others are harder to come by, and some are only found in certain parts of the world.

By the way, I still need a means of containing the production of consumer and electronic goods if anyone has any suggestions...

[chrispie]

Okay, these commodities are all very good, but what about us poor Brits?

In Ye old days..before Coal and Oil we had errm well not much. No horses=No cavalry...No iron=No infantry. See the problem is the fact that we don't have -huge- big supplies of things, but we do have them. How would that be represented? On a map even 5 times the size of the Civ2 ones, it'd still be unrealistic to put any resources in the UK. I think maybe cities themselves produce small amounts of random(?) commodities...otherwise a nation could die very very quickly.

[Dom Pedro II]

crispie, Britain will at least have Iron, Wood, Fish, and Clay. Those are very important resources in the beginning. the British on a world map, they would have to depend heavily on infantry, catapults, and the navy. That has always been the British strongpoint. But for cavalry, you'd have to wait for the Russians to take horses, the French or Germans to acquire them, and then you'd get them. I don't know how a civ would gain the right to build such facilities without having a city with the original resource. Maybe you'd have to buy the rights or steal some specimens??

For the rest of the resources, the Brits will have to do it the ol' fashion way, Conquest. Take those little resource rich places.

I think that some of the first primary resources should be generated from cities regardless of where they are, but the problem is that it makes blockades and sieges less effective. Maybe it should only be 1 unit of each important resource per turn. And they have to be global resources.

[Stuff2]

About the market.

I just want to point out that in developed countries
a big part of the 'goods' are actually services (like getting a haircut). And not to forget that in a totally capitalistic system even education and health care are made for profit.

Also, about raw materials and complex products:
The rich world has got much of our richness beacouse we bought raw materials (and components) sheap from poor countries and sold advanced products , to a high prize, to the poor countries. Nowdays we buy labour sheap and sell expertice for a high prize.

If civ3 ever will have a realistic economic model this has to be represented in some way.

It follows this pattern:

- Natural reasource
- Manufactured reasource
- Manufactured good
- Services

I'll give an example to show what I mean:

- Wood
- Paper (is made of wood)
- Books (is made of paper)
- Education (A service that usually use books)

Personally I think having alot of different categorized 'goods' will make civ3 way too complex.
But it would be great if it could be implemented on a more abstract level. I just don't know how.

[chrispie]

Been playing Imperialism 1 the past few days, and I have to say I -love- the market based idea...even though the game has some major flaws (I lost all my ships-of-the-line when they became obsolete? huh?)

Anyway...If kept within certain boundries of simplicity, I think it could really work for Civ3..as long as it's balanced so that a nation not having one resource would kill it (except maybe for food and wood ). And, obviously if a nation doesn't have a resource, it can steal it from others or maybe even....trade it!