What needs to be done to make this game great.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS


Well then! Allow me to be the first to contradict, since pretty much everything you said about Civ III was false.

Dan


P.S. my signature may be too much for the common reader to handle; exercise caution. I can't be held responsible if anyone decides to totally flip out and start cutting heads off.

Off topic (start the recorders) Dan I would like to appologize for my rudeness toward you and the other members that have made appearences in here, although I admit I am very upset how Civ3 turned out, there really is only one way to improve the game that we all love so much, and that's to take a deep breath and step back and try, try again. My suggestion is that if we do submit suggestions and ideas from this point on, where will we best be heard?

Thanks for your time Dan.

Charles.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
I once posted my opinion, that I enjoy the game knowing that it's not perfect, and that I have faith that the next patch will fix many problems. Your answer was "fanboy", "slap yourself" and worse. See what I'm talking about? The speed you are collecting enemies is amazing.

Well I admit to say such things, but I don't deny that I had valid reasons to defend myself and my point, which you completely disrupted with your childish remarks. I can understand that you enjoy the game, but when you jump in half-way into my posts and cut me down, thats the least I will do (or say). And if you want the honest truth I could care less about all these strangers on this board -- I don't know anyone personally -- nor do I care. So "the speed you are collecting enemies" really doesn't apply to me. It's a game forum -- we're all here to vent and discuss the game, no one really cares what anyone thinks as long as we can all be heard -- we're not here to be "liked" and if you are, thats a pitty, you better find a life.

I see. Complaints are insignificant ranting. Approvals are intelligent and welcome.

Neither, they're both acceptable when it comes to a free public forum. You come here to express your opinions, your ideas and sometimes "vent" your feelings. What good would a discussion board be if none of those human elements were allowed?

I care less what you think about the game, as long as you leave others the right for their own opinion.

God, here we go. I have never not even once told anyone that they don't have a right to their opinions, nor have I ever tried to change someone's opinions. So you're wrong and obviously misunderstanding me, you attacked me because I was criticising Civ3 -- you expect me not to defend myself? Or perhaps I misunderstood you -- even though I wasn't even talking to you in the first place. But I accept you're opinion, I know you like the game, but I don't want to talk to 'civ3 lovers' I want to discuss and relate with fellow critics, do you honestly believe that you and I are going to solve something here when we have no common ground? Thats what I meant by "slap yourself".

May be because others see in your critizism insignificant ranting? I admit, that both sides in this discussion act not very fair.

No, only people who are opposed to "criticism" view it as such. There are two points of view, obviously you and the others like you enjoy the game - and obviously people like me don't. So there is no such thing as "right" or "wrong" here, just two different points of view. So you're wasting your time arguing with critics we're not going to listen to you -- we know why people enjoy Civ3, it isn't a complete failure -- but for you to assume that you can hijack a post and try to supress someone's disapprovement and criticism with Civ3 -- is ridiculous. Some people like it, and some people hate it -- the two shouldn't be discussing it for the lack of common ground.

I'm content with Firaxis' statement, that they work on a patch. We will see what it brings and what they will be able to improve. I'm sure my 3 main complaints "missing scenario editor", "missing MP mode" and "poor game interface" are at their schedule. So why should I cry everyday "Firaxis, where is the patch?" or "Firaxis, where is your statement what you are doing?" The patch will be right here, when it's ready.

Thats nice, you have come to a higher understanding of yourself, does that mean you're way is the right way? Or that we should all heed you're example and follow you? Not in the real world. I'll choose my own course, and if I wanna hang around the forums and bi+ch and complain over and over -- thats my right -- I bought the game.

Charles.

[Zachriel]

Lighten up everybody. It's just a game! Geez, you'd think the freedom of Western Civilization was at stake, or something.

[ACooper]

Originally posted by Kevin Ar18
I want a modern eara that is actually fun.

• Submarines that can take out ships.
  ..........
• Use pictures or movies of real people and voices.

Then you don't want CIV 3. Most of what you want has never been in a Civ series game. The game is already made and will get a few tweaks. I can garantee they will not do major rewriting of code for items they have already thought through and decided on.




It's like saying I want my Dodge Stratus to have cable TV, a ice cream maker, and laser cannons.

[PGM]

I believe Civ3 is a fantastic game (v. 1.16f).
Although it seems like it was rushed (late game can be boring due to lack of interesting choices, pollution, lack of group movement, ...), the early game is really exciting.
But it can be improved, and here are my suggestions:


Group movement.
Enough said.

Domestic advisor on-screen message: show pictures
When something has been built in a city, the advisor comes in immediately to say so, and to allow you to choose the next production in a list. This list should have pictures too.

Military advisor: view by unit
Allow us to see which units are under production in "view by unit", like in "view by city".

Military advisor: show number of captured/lost workers
Whenever I want to know how many "slaves" I have, I don't want to count them by myself.

Domestic advisor: a (new) maintenance screen (Civ2)
Allow us to see how many of each city improvement we have (similar to the one in Civ2), how much their accumulated maintenance costs, allow us to sell a whole group right there (ex.: If I'd built Hoover Dam, I could now sell the whole lot of Coal Plants with a single click).

Map/City messages: ALWAYS center them.
Sometimes I get messages in the corner of the screen, barely noticeble.

Science Advisor: show remaining goals
In civ2, we were able to choose the next tech to discover based on a specific goal (city improvements / units / Wonders), which we could pick out of the list of remaining goals to achieve.

Cultural advisor: number of turns to culturally grow
Show how many turns are left for each city to grow culturally.

Diplomatic screen: trade units
This would be so interesting, to trade units for money, techs, ...

Hurry Production: default action should always be NO.
I've killed too many citizens with an accidental key press.

Terrain improvement replacement: default action should always be YES.
It's a very common action in the Despotism-Monarchy transition and late game.

Preferences memory
The game forgets some preferences each time we load a game: grid; activated types of treaties in foreign advisor (ex.: war and military alliances only); rolled-out categories in diplomacy screens (ex.: resources, luxuries, maps, gold, ...).

Domestic advisor/city view: allow right-click access to Civilopedia

Units: Patrol mode

Units: Sleep mode

Cruise missiles: target 1-hit point ships
To target a ship that's in the red, I have to keep "B" pressed down, otherwise this doesn't work.

Workers: airlift
I can't understand why I can't airlift a worker.

Armies: pillage
Yes I am aware I can change this in the editor, but anyway...

Summary replay: forward to any date
I refuse to remain watching this for over 5 minutes.

Editor: a good one




PS: BTW, it seems I'm the only one, but I love:

- the combat model
- the corruption level
- the culture flipping model
- the no Wonder Movies model
- the advisors

[Harovan]

To CharlesUFarley, without a quote:

So you blame others for threadjacking, huh? I remember half a dozen "I love the game" threads, where you and your partially exiled buddies jumped in and spreaded their "intelligence" and "wisdom" to the "fanboys" and "chihuahuas". Understand me right, it were not my threads, I did not post there, and I would never praise the game the way they did in these threads (I won't call it stupid but... naive). But the way you jumped in and made trouble, not giving others the same right in your "intelligent conversation", is the reason why I posted my complaint to you, accusing you not to respect other's opinions.

I see it's completely useless to continue this discussion. I have better things to do in my weekend. I told you what I think, I heard your response, and so be it.

[Kevin Ar18]

Originally posted by ACooper


Then you don't want CIV 3. Most of what you want has never been in a Civ series game. The game is already made and will get a few tweaks. I can garantee they will not do major rewriting of code for items they have already thought through and decided on.




It's like saying I want my Dodge Stratus to have cable TV, a ice cream maker, and laser cannons.

Yes, I do. I expect CivIII to be more than just Civ 2 with 2 more features (aka Culture which don't always work too well and resources). Besides this was a thread to really go all out with suggestions no matter how far fetched they were. However, I will say that 9 out of 16 of my suggestions were in Civ 2 in some fashion or another.

[Ironikinit]

I think it's funny that martin would waste his time with a bunch of guesswork about a game he doesn't own or want.

Guys like this deserve only one thing, and that's why there's an ignore feature. Whenever they say something extra dumb somebody will quote it anyway.

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

Martin,

If I might make a suggestion, you might want to stop "guessing" about the game engine of Civ III. It shares ZERO code with Civ II and at this point probably next to none with SMAC. That famous article refers to a prototype Brian was working on before his departure, and it has NOTHING to do with what Civ III is now.

As for whether civ III uses "8bit 255colors" graphics, the engine is capable of handling 24-bit color, and each unit has its own palette of 255 possible colors, a limitation of the FLC format. So the answer is yes and no.

Also, I never said we "didn't care" about people's HD space, either. Thanks for (finally) quoting me properly, which illustrates exactly what I said: speed is generally more of a concern for players than HD space, which is why savegames are not compressed before saving. I don't really know what this has to do with anything but I can "guess" (pun intended) that you mean it as a jab at Civ.

At any rate, thanks for the entertainment. You definitely know what real ultimate power is.

Dan

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann
But is very interesting that Firaxis does not own the Civ licence. The part of the article that I quoted above gave me the hint.

So Dan I can ask again: Firaxis owns the Civ licience.

True or False?

nothing amazing there Martin

civ is older than firaxis the civ license belonged to Microprose. the fact that some people(who later left microprose to start firaxis) worked for Microprose on civ1 and civ2 didnt give them any rights on the civilization name(obviously). so how could firaxis have the civ license?

just fyi, hasbro interactive bought microprose(and the civ license) and later hasbro interactive was bought by infogrames.



regarding the 8bit graphics that you saw, it's the stuff that is used in the civilopedia in other parts of the game. the animations are something completely different

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
Well then! Allow me to be the first to contradict, since pretty much everything you said about Civ III was false.

Dan

Such as-?

-Settler/Worker Mania?
-Weak scenario editor?
-No slic like language in Civ3?
-Modding limitations?

I realize that, as a PR guy, your job is to make the best out of a bad game, but I would advise caution in tackling Martin. My impression so far is that he knows a lot more about the Civ series than you do. He might roll over you as a Tank rolls over a Spearman (irl, not CivIII).

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
If I might make a suggestion, you might want to stop "guessing" about the game engine of Civ III. It shares ZERO code with Civ II and at this point probably next to none with SMAC. That famous article refers to a prototype Brian was working on before his departure, and it has NOTHING to do with what Civ III is now.

Thanks for that clarification and finally it does make sense as Firaxis does not own the civ licience.

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
As for whether civ III uses "8bit 255colors" graphics, the engine is capable of handling 24-bit color, and each unit has its own palette of 255 possible colors, a limitation of the FLC format. So the answer is yes and no.

And why than this FLC format and not an own format and release a comfortable editor?

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS
Also, I never said we "didn't care" about people's HD space, either. Thanks for (finally) quoting me properly, which illustrates exactly what I said: speed is generally more of a concern for players than HD space, which is why savegames are not compressed before saving. I don't really know what this has to do with anything but I can "guess" (pun intended) that you mean it as a jab at Civ.

Savegames are not compressed before saving. But that is something slightly different. But you can also say that people have fast CPUs nowadays.

By the way were can I download a demo of Civ3? So I could really stop guessing.

-Martin

[GePap]

Realistic: can be done in the next patch

1. Allow bombardment to kill units in shore, sea, ocean squares. Give modern units the ability to shoot at aircraft (fighters only).
2. Don't allow bombers on carriers, only fighters or jet fighters.
3. Increase anti-corruption powers of courthouses and police stations.
4. Multiple Forbidden Palaces

Realistic: Can be done in an expansion

1. Create well-rounded and powerful editor (with events possible) to allow for scenerio making, and letting persons modify game as they wish.
2. Create more subtle government choices (probably by giving more government choices) to allow for more playing choices.
3. Change rules for city revolts, both for captured cities and unhappy cities in your empire.

Unrealistic: Would need a new game

1.Manpower (making population size matter)
2. Private vs. Public sectors

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
To CharlesUFarley, without a quote:

So you blame others for threadjacking, huh? I remember half a dozen "I love the game" threads, where you and your partially exiled buddies jumped in and spreaded their "intelligence" and "wisdom" to the "fanboys" and "chihuahuas".

Wrong - I've never posted in "I love the game" threads, that's one of you're most far fetched lies I have ever heard - prove it, show me the quotes and the thread title/date/time. Otherwise I don't agree. And when you say partially exhiled buddies I believe you're referring to "Libertarian". One - he's not my buddy, although I do admire his words and his cause. Second - everything they've stated up to this point I completely agree with and support 100% - I haven't seen one un-proven point by any of my so called "buddies" yet. And even if we did 'hijack' a few threads here and there - you're just as bad now for doing the same thing - only it's worse for you because we at least had something valid to debate, you're just debating for the sake of debating.

Understand me right, it were not my threads, I did not post there, and I would never praise the game the way they did in these threads (I won't call it stupid but... naive). But the way you jumped in and made trouble, not giving others the same right in your "intelligent conversation", is the reason why I posted my complaint to you, accusing you not to respect other's opinions.

You're mistaken if you think I actually care what you think. I'm not here for you, so get over yourself and you're inflated shadow. And this accusation about me causing trouble, you're just reaching. I did no such thing, but I have stated my opinions and views - maybe that's what you classify as "trouble" but I'm sorry it just doesn't cut it. Don't try to pass yourself off as some kind of critic crusader or something, you're just another fine example of someone who can't take criticism or oppositional views - and you guys cling to criticism like moths to the light. I've heard everything you said, and I'll say this again - I don't care what you think, go away or come back when you have something important to offer.

I see it's completely useless to continue this discussion. I have better things to do in my weekend. I told you what I think, I heard your response, and so be it.

After about five posts - you enjoyed every minute of it, and couldn't resist debating with me - like I said you're the moth. But I'm glad you've realized that you're wasting you're time talking to me, because I don't care what you think.

Charles.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Ironikinit
I think it's funny that martin would waste his time with a bunch of guesswork about a game he doesn't own or want.

Guys like this deserve only one thing, and that's why there's an ignore feature. Whenever they say something extra dumb somebody will quote it anyway.

Yeah but he did have a valid point to make, and AGAIN was his opinion and is still surely entitled to it, and the only thing "DUMB" is some big mouth jumping in at half point to cut his post down. And when you do that you're trying to discredit his opinion (and MarkG if your reading this - this kind of thing should be discouraged) - I can understand if this person insulted you, or debated you in a disrespectful manner -- but he didn't, therefor you don't have the right to cut his posts down, or anyone elses for that matter.

And just because someone gets rid of their civ3 copy doesn't mean they give up their rights as fans, most of these people have been around for over 10 years now! They definately deserve better! In the least a freely expressive post every now and then, when I say "freely" that means no interjection or negative cut downs.

Charles.

[Death's Toe]

Originally posted by CharlesUFarley


If we we're game designers (that means you too!) we surely wouldn't be in a game discussion forum relating to another companies products. You're just as guilty for being here as we are. So asside from a smartass remark -- do you have a better idea?

Charles.

Believe it or not, I actually am a game designer. Junior class designer, however, so my opinion might not matter much. Either way, I don't know what that has to do with anything.

Anyway...You don't go to the closet and get a deck of cards if you want to play monpoly. You don't get monopoly if you want to play risk. You don't get risk if you want to play sorry...etc. If you don't want to play Civ 3, don't play it. Saying it is somehow broken or flawed is a logical fallacy. Its akin to saying that monopoly should have three dice, or it should use pesos.

Having said that, there is nothing stopping you, or anyone else, from playing with house rules, or mods. For examle, its a common house rule in monopoly to place a $500 bill on the board, this bill gets collected by anyone lucky enough to land on free parking. It wasn't designed to be played this way, and it can easly change the balance and dynamic of the game, but some people enjoy playing it this way.

Firaxis has made Civ3. Its obvious, despite the rediculous claims to the contrary, that they put in a lot of hard work to make this game. They made a game that they think is fun, and no matter how much howling and gnashing of teeth goes on by a wronged few, many people who bought it find it a good game too.

So, if you don't enjoy the way Civ 3 is meant to be played, don't play it, or download a mod for it, or make your own game.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Martin Gühmann
And why than this FLC format and not an own format and release a comfortable editor?

By the way were can I download a demo of Civ3? So I could really stop guessing.

-Martin

Because they did it the way they wanted to do it. Not the way some Johnny-come-lately-twit who couldn't give a sh*t about Civ3 wants it. OK?

No not OK, with you. Your posts are exemplars of ignorance. You attack a game that you admit you have not played. How any criticism could have less value than that is beyond me.

You, sir, are a twit. Pure and simple.

God, I wish I had downloaded a demo of CTP2 before I wasted 50 bux on that cr*p.

Bring it on.

[Harovan]

Very good post, PGM I agree with almost all you wrote, but would like to add:

Multiplayer mode.
Enough said. Beating the AI is too easy.

CTP2-like "Secret service" button in diplomatic negitiations.
If one offers me a MPP, I'd like to see with whom he's allied, at war, has MPP, RoP or trade embargoes, without leaving the negotiations.

Diplomatic overview on large and huge maps.
It's a pain to check all treaties and connections with more than 8 players in the game.

Bombardements can sink naval units.
But not destroy land units.

The number of turns for a city to grow culturally you can easily determine in the zoomed to city screen. There could be added a "Will grow in ... turns", but I think this is not necessary.

PS: BTW, you are not the only one, who loves:

- the combat model (compared with Civ2)
- the corruption level
- the culture flipping model
- the no Wonder Movies model

I would like to add:

- the no rushing Wonders with caravans model
- the trading with no caravans model
- the no terraforming Alps into grassland model

But I am disappointed of the advisors. I want the "I disagree, your excellency" guys back. They were as silly as the advisors in Civ3, but much more funny

[Mark_Everson]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Multiplayer mode.
Enough said. Beating the AI is too easy.

Hi Sir Ralph:

This may be a bit OT, but definitely not moreso than a flame war

As you say, MP is a must, and its surely a buisness proposition that Firaxis can't screw up on exploiting. My though was "OMG, what are people in MP going to do with culture flipping?" I envision a whole cottage industry of "Culture Trap" strategies. Why destroy your enemies' armies on the field when its so much easier to lure them in with a succulent city, and let the widows and children of the city Slaughter the poor innocent troops before they know what hit them.

I feel that the number of tactical strategies and counter-strategies involving culture flipping will come to dominate the game *shudders* unless someting is done to mod flipping before then.

So I think its Imperitive for Firaxis seriously fix culture flipping Before MP comes out. Otherwise frankly I think it'll ruin the game...


I'm so cutting edge, I registered at Apolyton before the internet even existed

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by Ironikinit
I think it's funny that martin would waste his time with a bunch of guesswork about a game he doesn't own or want.

Actual it is very entertaining to drive into a serious discussion at least I thought I did it.

Originally posted by Ironikinit
Guys like this deserve only one thing, and that's why there's an ignore feature. Whenever they say something extra dumb somebody will quote it anyway.

It would would work if I would just insulting people, don't bring arguments. And the stuff that I say is totally wrong. But it isn't and therfore this button turn into agree button. Then I could maintain now that you agree and have nothing to add, but you replyed and I got your opinion. And I know that you disagree.

Unfortunatly fact is that there are people who thinks that Civ3 is something like Civ1.8. I tried to verify this over the graphics thing and I failed as it would be a copyright violation to use Civ2 code in Civ3. But by the way Markos not only the Graet Library but I also downloaded terrain,, goods and city graphics from Apolyton all of them are 8bit. I just wondered why afterwards I converted the flc's via Animation Shop to single pictures I got 24bit graphics. And Dan gave me the explaination. But actual the graphics stuff is just a minor issure the dot on the i. My main problem is the settler/worker mania, and to know what does it mean you only need to play Civ2.

I wonder why Dan put so much emphasis on the fact that Civ3 probably does not contain any code of SMAC. Is SMAC a so bad game that nothing of it is worth to be used in Civ3? Actual it can be very good for a game if the designers use an already existing engine. Of course the disadvantage are that you have to cope with the limitations of the engine, but the huge advantage is that you have the time to concentrate on gameplay and new features. So it wouldn't hurt if Civ3 a SMAC version, my argument would only hurt if SMAC uses Civ2 game engine but Friaxis does not own Civ2. But they own SMAC or am I wrong on this point. So if Firaxis own SMAC than they have the right to take everything from it what they need and what Civ3 could make great.

Originally posted by
notyoueither
Because they did it the way they wanted to do it. Not the way some Johnny-come-lately-twit who couldn't give a sh*t about Civ3 wants it. OK?

This is a to simple answer they had a reason to do it, if they thought that it was better to do so than they can explain it and if the explaination is good than it is OK.

Originally posted by
notyoueither
No not OK, with you. Your posts are exemplars of ignorance. You attack a game that you admit you have not played. How any criticism could have less value than that is beyond me.

As I already said there is no need to play Civ3 to see the weak tile improvement system if you played Civ2.

BTW you should really avoid swearwords otherwise I can't take you too serious. Note offences are the arguments of the ones who are wrong.

And for the fact that I don't have Civ3, I prefer to play a game in German and not in English. That is another problem on the list, but if you wait long enough it will be solved.

-Martin

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Mark_Everson
I envision a whole cottage industry of "Culture Trap" strategies. Why destroy your enemies' armies on the field when its so much easier to lure them in with a succulent city, and let the widows and children of the city Slaughter the poor innocent troops before they know what hit them.

Good point, but I think every new strategy makes a challenge of the game. And to build a "culture trap" is not so easy. I tried it several times, but succeeded rarely, because the flips are not predictable. As for the lost units, I guess the solution would be to "teleport" all your units back to the capital. Remember, a turn lasts a year or more and the message could be something like "The city has revolted, the high command was enforced to withdraw our garrison to the capital" or something like that. Done.

Originally posted by Mark_Everson
I feel that the number of tactical strategies and counter-strategies involving culture flipping will come to dominate the game *shudders* unless someting is done to mod flipping before then.

As I already said, that's not that easy and can't be compared with easy cheat-like strategies like "Size 6" or "Temp city for pop-rushing" (Credits to their inventors though ).

Generally, I have faith that the game can and will be improved. Civ2 had also flaws in the first few months (be glad you never saw the German localization, it was - and still is - awful!), and ended as an absolute hit.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Death's Toe
Believe it or not, I actually am a game designer. Junior class designer, however, so my opinion might not matter much. Either way, I don't know what that has to do with anything.

Well you said that if we wanted a better game that we should go out and program one that suits our high expectations, or some variation of wording. So you're statement has everything to do with my response.

Anyway...You don't go to the closet and get a deck of cards if you want to play monpoly. You don't get monopoly if you want to play risk. You don't get risk if you want to play sorry...etc. If you don't want to play Civ 3, don't play it. Saying it is somehow broken or flawed is a logical fallacy. Its akin to saying that monopoly should have three dice, or it should use pesos.

Logical fallacy? I'm not about to get into this with you - you've obviously haven't read the 'complaint' threads or paid much attention to the growing list of disapointments throughout the community. Either way they do exist, and the game was engineered with design flaws, Firaxis has admitted openly hence why they designed a 'patch'. Unless you're playing ignorant so that you can escape with a good debate or two. However - I've been a fan of this game since it's birth, I'm not about to turn around and throw my monopoly game out just because I don't like the new Monopoly Gold, and the simple fact that myself and the entire community has devoted so much to this product line (as I said before in other threads) we reserve the rights to discuss, criticise or even complain about it. And until this board goes 'pay' I'll continue to do just that.

Having said that, there is nothing stopping you, or anyone else, from playing with house rules, or mods. For examle, its a common house rule in monopoly to place a $500 bill on the board, this bill gets collected by anyone lucky enough to land on free parking. It wasn't designed to be played this way, and it can easly change the balance and dynamic of the game, but some people enjoy playing it this way.

I don't deny that Civ3 was designed the way it is, but the fact that there were some flaws inspired Firaxis to design a patch to correct those flaws. And I do play other games, but that doesn't perish any rights I have here. And again, you're not very well educated on the criticisim and complaints are you? Judging by you're phrasing and the manner in which you use it, you're either 'un-aware' of the reasons, or you're purposely 'ignoring' them. But kick and scream all you like - they do exist. But basically most of the arguments boil down to - lack of features & realism (based on opinions). So perhaps you enjoy the game the way it is, and possibly take offense to all the criticism -- but you're not going to change anything by adding to the confusion! Let us work our own issues out -- without meaningless interuption.

Firaxis has made Civ3. Its obvious, despite the rediculous claims to the contrary, that they put in a lot of hard work to make this game. They made a game that they think is fun, and no matter how much howling and gnashing of teeth goes on by a wronged few, many people who bought it find it a good game too.

But that's only your opinion - not fact. When I say "not fact" that means for it to be a fact - everyone would have to like it, and that just simply does not exist. There is absolutely nothing utopian about this game. Sure, granted some people enjoy it, but on the other hand - some people don't. And there is no right or wrong, just preference. I agree, they probably did put alot of work into it, game design isn't easy. And fun to some, but not all. You may not agree with people disaproving of the game you like so much, but just because you fail to see thier reasoning for it, does that mean it doesn't exist? Again - you're talking about apples and oranges here, you shouldn't be discussing all this with critics (such as myself) because we don't share you're views, and more importantly (and I had to explain this to a few others who have trouble grasping this concept) no common ground - I could understand if we we're relating to a discussion, but I have nothing (at this point in time) to share with you. I don't like the game, you do. Simple logic.

So, if you don't enjoy the way Civ 3 is meant to be played, don't play it, or download a mod for it, or make your own game.

Well - uh - thanks Dad! But I think I'll make up my own mind where I spend my leisurely moments. As I said above, critics have the same rights fans do! Accept it.

PS. Asside from telling me that you like the game, and attempting to dictate my rights - you still haven't honored the topic of this forum - instead of bi+ching about criticism is there some ideas you would like to share with this forum that could potentially improve this game?

Charles.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Generally, I have faith that the game can and will be improved. Civ2 had also flaws in the first few months (be glad you never saw the German localization, it was - and still is - awful!), and ended as an absolute hit.

Civ2 still is a hit!



Charles.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Death's Toe
So, if you don't enjoy the way Civ 3 is meant to be played, don't play it, or download a mod for it, or make your own game.

Excellent ideas. But why not additionally:

-Discourage as many people as possible from buying that substandard game? It serves a good purpose, and it´s fun!

[PGM]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Very good post, PGM I agree with almost all you wrote [...]

Thanks Sir Ralph. You made some good suggestions too, specially in the diplomatic sector (it's certainly boring to request diplomatic meetings with ALL your opponents just to check what you're trading what whom, and for how many turns more; also, a Secret Services button would surely be helpful).

IMHO Firaxis still has the chance and opportunity to tweak civ3 into being a fabulous game.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Mark_Everson
I envision a whole cottage industry of "Culture Trap" strategies.

Or Culture may turn out to be an extreme disadvantage in MP, diplomatically. Unlike SP, they won´t be impressed if you have lots of Culture; instead, everybody will want to destroy you.

Great model.

[CapTVK]

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune


Or Culture may turn out to be an extreme disadvantage in MP, diplomatically. Unlike SP, they won´t be impressed if you have lots of Culture; instead, everybody will want to destroy you.

Great model.

Seems like we've found some common ground, everybody wanted to destroy you too in Civ2 MP (except in diplogames).

[Comrade Tribune]

Yeah, but the difference is that Culture in Civ III is presumed to make other Civs like you.

It just won´t work with MP.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune
Yeah, but the difference is that Culture in Civ III is presumed to make other Civs like you.

It just won´t work with MP.

Sure it will. Culture doesn't make you like them. It makes the people in your towns like them. And they'll flip if you don't pay attention to the culture of your Civ.

[Dida]

Originally posted by GePap
Realistic: can be done in the next patch

2. Don't allow bombers on carriers, only fighters or jet fighters.

1.Manpower (making population size matter)

2. Private vs. Public sectors

What do you mean by no bombers on carriers? The carriers are already having very limited use. w/o bombers on board, they will be completely useless, same for the bombers. w/o having carriers to carry them to where they are needed, bombers would be pieces of crap. Historically, bombers can always fit onto a carrier, except for the land-based bombers. Go learn some history before making ridiculous suggestion.

As for man power, do they already matter?

The whole private and public sectors thing will do nothing but adds even more complexity to the game.