Did they mess up the science wonders?

[Smash]

The manual is wrong regarding Copernicus' Observatory and Sir Isaac's College.We all know that.Its basically backwards.

But does it not make sense?Cope's is the cheaper of the 2(300 sheilds)(Isaac 400)and yet it is more powerful as it doubles the science in the city.Isaac's only gives 50% more.

Seems like it should be the other way round.


Some programmer made a boo-boo.

[Sten Sture]

I thought they were both +50% of base??

[Ribannah]

You are right: the manual has them mixed up.

I'm pretty sure it was done intentionally though. Copernicus comes much earlier in the game, when 300 shields are harder to come by than 400 shields later on. The same is true for Bach's Cathedral v Cure for Cancer: again double the effect at a lower price, but way sooner in the game.

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[Smash]

Cope's doubles it.

I don't know.I think of The Lighthouse vs Magellans.Different but similiar as they are sea wonders.As you improve your naval capabilty,you are offered better boats and a better wonder(imo).

Or even Mich's vs The Gardens.Although strong arguments can be made for The Gardens being better,I think most figure Mich's as the better.

It just seems as you progress that bigger and better things would come.Isaac's requires more techs and more sheilds but is only half as good as Cope's.

Later you are offered a potentially strongest science wonder of all.SETI.

[Ribannah]

Well, I'd say Apollo is the most powerful wonder ...

SETI is so late in the game that it rarely makes a difference towards victory. And you could always build Research Labs, so it merely saves money - and only if you have to build more than 3 labs.

Hanging Gardens is much better than Mike's, since you can always build Cathedrals but nothing will replace the HG. Also, because it is available so early, once more the effect is much greater.

Even the Lighthouse has a much greater effect than Magellan. Easy exploration early on is way more important than quicker movement later, when you could simply build a few more ships to compensate. And vet status, too!

Marco Polo beats the UN, too. IMHO the Hoover Dam may be the only major late wonder (not counting Apollo), for a large empire or if you can't build Hydroplants.

So, about all early wonders are clearly better than their later counterparts. But it takes longer to build them.

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[kcbob]

quote: Originally posted by Smash on 09-13-2000 06:55 PM The manual is wrong regarding Copernicus' Observatory and Sir Isaac's College.We all know that.Its basically backwards. But does it not make sense?Cope's is the cheaper of the 2(300 sheilds)(Isaac 400)and yet it is more powerful as it doubles the science in the city.Isaac's only gives 50% more. Seems like it should be the other way round. Some programmer made a boo-boo.

I think the percentages are 6 of one, a half-dozen of the other.

If you start with an initial city beaker production of, let's say, 12 beakers, and then throw in a library (50 % increase), Cop's (100% increase), a University (50% increase), and then Sir Isaac (50% increase), you get the following:

12*1.5=18(Library)
18*2=36(Cop's)
36*1.5=54(University)
54*1.5=81(Sir Isaac)

On the other hand, if you change Cop's to 50% and Sir Isaac to 100%, you get the following results:

12*1.5=18(Library)
18*1.5=27(Cop's)
27*1.5=40.5(University)
40.5*2=81(Sir Isaac)

The latter wonder (Sir Isaac's) should cost more since you should be able to produce more, i.e., more cities. Therefore, is there any real problem?

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Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

[SCG]

One could also argue the principle of diminishing returns. Since at some point you start getting less extra benefit for more effort put in. In this case, less extra science for slightly more shields. Ribannah seemed to try and point that out reguarding the JSB vs CfC, and you even demonstrate that with the increasing costs of getting 50% increase with marketplace/ bank/ stock exchange and library/ university/ reserach lab among other things.

Of course as with many debates, only an official word can really settle it, and that would be most likely from a Civ III release.

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April Cantor: Sire, in order to expand further we must first gain favor of the King

SCG: darn, I've never really got the hang of that tribute thing, guess it will be a long time until i make prince

*goes off and starts gifting gold and techs*

[Bohlen]

Well, I'd say that looks right, kcbob. I'm not one to study the mathematics within the game, but just assumed your scenario would come out with different totals. We need a number cruncher here. Where's DaveV when you need him?

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Proud Warrior of the O.W.L. Alliance

[kcbob]

quote: Originally posted by DaveV on 09-14-2000 12:40 PM Then, using kcbob's numbers, you're looking at a difference between 54 shields (if Copes = 100%) or 40 shields (if Copes = 50%). Multiplied over many turns, this could be a very significant difference.

I think you meant "beakers" instead of "shields". But you do make a good point. I hadn't considered the difference on the intervening turns while you're waiting for the final numbers to get back in sync.

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Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

[Gatekeeper]

Smash, et al.:

Typically I will build only Wonders which have no expiration date. My reasoning for this is simple — the effects *never* expire, which happens a lot with Wonders available early in the game (Pyramids being a notable exception).

The only expire-prone Wonders I build are Colossus and Marco Polo's Embassy. Those two are key to making or breaking a game, particularly Colossus. I mean ... it helps having seven to 12 extra trade arrows in an early city, particularly the capital.

CYBERAmazon

[Bohlen]

I always tend to give the Civ programmers the benefit of the doubt when talking of programming mistakes or oversights. It’s nice to believe that Sid & Co. really intended on some of the game’s idiosyncrasies

With that said, it could make sense that Cope’s is cheaper, yet more powerful, due to “the age of discovery” that it represents. Convincing the world that the Earth is not the center of the universe was, IMHO, more enlightening than a theory of why we fall and stay on the ground. Of course, these two Wonders represent more sweeping change and breakthrough than just these two ideas, but I would say that the building upon an established science (Ike’s) is less influential and more difficult than the establishment of the science itself (Cope’s).

So, if you buy this idea, then maybe this is the way these two wonders are supposed to work. They either screwed up on the manual or programming, I guess. Take your pick.

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Proud Warrior of the O.W.L. Alliance

[Theben]

Whichever wonder is best depends on your situation.

FE, HG in the same city with the Colossus is a great way to insure WLT?days (esp. in Monarchy- gives Republic trade), but if you don't get it no sweat; 3 caravans are cheaper. HG & GW together are marvelous as GW forces peace while HG allows for rapid expansion (1st very unhappy becomes happy for some reason). But in the end you'll want MC.

That said I wonder if 3 solid trade routes per city isn't the best "wonder" of all. I've never been disciplined enough to find out.

[N35t0r]

No!

the percentage increases of libraries, universities, etc. are added up, then applied to the original number. Don't know about the wonders, though.

ie:
base science: 4
+ library: 4*150%=6
+ library&university: 4*200%=8
NOT 4*150%=6*150%=9

[Smash]

Man,I need civ3 to come out now.I'm making topics about civlopedia/manual errors

Some goods cases for it is right as is.But I still think it was a mistake.It just sits better the other way.

Yes it is kinda relevent to the time.A city will be bigger and better at the time of Theory of Gravity compared to Astronomy(generally speaking).So,one could say that Isaac may be cheaper or at least easier to build than Cope's.

But the civlopedia says so.I know ,I know.What about JSB and Hoover's??

Well,that may be a mistake of sorts also.Is it not possible that, in the concept stage,game designers wanted them to be SAME continent wonders?

Hoover Dam does not supply power to Hawaii.Or Alaska for instance.

Then,during actual programing,it was found impossible or too difficult to do?Keep in mind this was made eons ago in computer terms.

Why does Pottery allow me granaries,but Masonry allows The Pyramids which act as granaries?Something seems funny here.

WTF happened to The Oracle?In the original rules.txt it is not good at all.Why is it more than The Gardens?Even with altered rules.txt I know which one I'd rather have.This wonder was not thought out well.Seems more like a late change from something else.

I think there was many changes due to long days and programming limitations.

Can you say BORED?

[DaveV]

Well, how can I resist posting after a question like that? I'll agree with kcbob that it doesn't make any difference in the long run. The difference is during the time span when you have built Cope but not Isaac. Then, using kcbob's numbers, you're looking at a difference between 54 shields (if Copes = 100%) or 40 shields (if Copes = 50%). Multiplied over many turns, this could be a very significant difference.

I'd agree with Smash that this was probably a programming error. It can, of course, be fixed by fiddling with the rules.txt.

[rah]

Smash, I think it was more an oversight then a programming problem on the same continent issue based on the fact that each hex square reference coordinate includes the continent number which is used in other features. (i.e the goto command window will only list cities on the same continent as unit.) To program the wonder powers using the same concept, couldn't have been much harder. Probably real easy.
Lazy or careless. Take your pick.

RAH
Director of Application Development for a large research company.

[Bohlen]

I'll second the motion that we need Civ3. Either that or a new Civ2 patch with some of these questions and problems confronted. Ahhh...to dream.

[Sten Sture]

Tell me about it. I am trying to write my own civ3 using the rules.txt - talk about futility!!

btw - someone must have stolen my password and posted that I didn't realize Cope's was +100%. Of course I knew that... (The car has been in the garage being worked on so long I am forgetting how to drive!)

Happy Friday.

[Theben]

quote: Originally posted by Smash on 09-14-2000 10:59 PM Well,that may be a mistake of sorts also.Is it not possible that, in the concept stage,game designers wanted them to be SAME continent wonders? Hoover Dam does not supply power to Hawaii.Or Alaska for instance. Then,during actual programing,it was found impossible or too difficult to do?Keep in mind this was made eons ago in computer terms.

Nope: in civ1 Hoover's & JSB only worked on the continental level. If they could do it then, they could probably do it 5 years later.

More likely either 1) a case of manual being written before game finished, whereas writer had to rely on civ 1 for information, or 2) irritated players not likeing wonder that only worked on one continent. Especially when a dumb AI built it on a 1 city island. Of all the games of civ1 I played, I particularly remember a game where the Mongols built Hoover's on a 1 city island in the middle of nowhere. grrrrrrrrrrr........

[debeest]

Well, obviously SOMEONE made a booboo. I suspect the programmers, since in my opinion the later Wonders do tend to be more powerful. But I've also noticed that, in my games, there tends to be a period roughly corresponding to the dark and medieval ages when tech development seems to slow down just as it did in real-world Europe. Maybe Copernicus is actually intended to help us through that slow time.

Some good points have been made, but not connected up. As HsFB noted, libraries and universities and research labs only ADD 50% of BASE science (just as markets and banks and stocks and factories and power plants and mfg plants only ADD 50% of BASE). But Copernicus and Newton MULTIPLY the combined total. That's much more powerful. Since libraries and universities only add, kcbob's calculations based on 12 beakers would actually produce only 72 beakers, not 81:

(12 + 6 (library) + 6 (university)) * 2 (CO) * 1.5 (IN)

Also, everyone seems to have forgotten that the two Wonders are often found in different cities! If YOU don't build them together, the AI certainly won't. And in that case, it DOES matter which one is 2x and which is only 1x.

[Chow Yun Fat]

Microprose had chosen to say that they've messed up the Civilopedia Entries.
For evidence, please check the archived thread. http://apolyton.net/forums/Archives/...29-000011.html

Look for the end of the thread.

[kcbob]

quote: Originally posted by debeest on 09-22-2000 12:56 AM Since libraries and universities only add, kcbob's calculations based on 12 beakers would actually produce only 72 beakers, not 81: (12 + 6 (library) + 6 (university)) * 2 (CO) * 1.5 (IN)

Dang Pentium III.

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Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.