Top 10 of new tech

[Ribannah]

Hundreds of suggestions have already been posted, but we have to limit ourselves or the game will be unplayable Hence my effort to list the most important ones. Some Civ II techs could be left out, too, to compensate. Here goes in arbitrary order:

[1] The Mill
<- engineering
-> polders, ecology
[2] Printing
<- literacy, chemistry
-> labor union, telecommunication
[3] Socialism
<- communism
-> guerillas, labor union
[4] Liberalism
<- the corporation
-> multinational, human rights
[5] Human Rights
<- labor union, liberalism
-> activists, "Abolishment of Slavery", ecology
[6] Ecology
<- recycling, the mill,
-> windmill, environmentalism
[7] Telecommunication
<- printing, electronics
-> television network, rocketry
[8] Artificial Intelligence
<- computers, psychology
-> space colonies
[9] Pharmaceutics
<- medicine, chemistry
-> "Contraception", genetic engineering
[10] Psychology
<- theology, tactics
-> children's creche, artificial intelligence

Tell me if you think something should be replaced!

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[DarkCloud]

Could you please expand on some of your ideas?
and describe what exactly they will do.

[UltraSonix]

I like the techs, but I think that there should be more than 10 new ones - civs should eventually be able to go down tech tree paths - ie they don't research all the techs available.

Just a small thing, though -

quote: "Abolishment of Slavery"

Doesn't this mean that there'll have to be slavery in the game to begin with (which I think is very un-civ)?

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards...
[This message has been edited by UltraSonix (edited September 14, 2000).]

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud on 09-13-2000 09:55 PM Could you please expand on some of your ideas? and describe what exactly they will do.

Sure !

Polders = allows settlers to change water into (grass)land and vice versa

Guerillas = units, like the Partisans in Civ2 (the Guerilla Warfare tech can be dumped, the line communism-gw-labor union in Civ2 is all wrong)

Multinational = city improvement, increases the yield of trade routes at both ends

Activists = units, uncontrolled by the player but with flag, will randomly occupy squares within the radius of foreign cities without causing an international incident, if that civ has not yet discovered human rights. After the discovery of ecology, activists will also occupy and possibly pillage squares near cities (even your own ) that generate pollution

Abolishment of Slavery = wonder, makes all extra-unhappy citizens in the world merely unhappy and stops Slavery - see elsewhere - for everybody

Windmill = city improvement, gives a set amount of shields that do not generate pollution

Television Network = city improvement, gives some happy citizens (the effect of your collossea and cathedrals - and yes, also Mike's - should run out upon the discovery of telecommunication)

Space Colonies = small colonies within the solar system (city map only, terrain improvements already in place but no farmland), founded by settlers, cities no larger than size 8 but with a double yield

Contraception = wonder, changes the effect of "We Love" days from growth into an extra arrow for every civ that has discovered Pharmaceutics

Children's Creche = city improvement (SMAC), reduces the number of colums to fill for city growth

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[Evil Capitalist]

Some suggestions-
Nationalism
<- explosives, printing
-> Conscription, Nationalist govt., Militia

Advanced Economics
<- Corporation, Automobile
-> Recyling, Keynes' General theory (wonder), Corruption decreases

[Ribannah]

Yeah, seen those before, but the question is: what to leave out?

Socialism seems much more important than Nationalism to me (Nationalist gov? What is that?), same with Psychology vs yet another Economy tech (which should be Econometrics, rather).

But try and make a case!

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[DarkCloud]

Some ideas:
------
*Bartering
*-Barterer (U) [see notes]
(Pottery)

1.Barterer-
When he goes into an allied city, he can buy units for half the
price that they would cost to build.
Cost: 30
(Bartering)
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Alphabet
*-School (C)

2.School-
Increased Science by 25% cumulative with university but NOT
Library.
(Alphabet)

3.University-
Increased Science by 50%, cumulative with school but NOT
Library.
(University)

4.Library-
Increased Science by 50%, cumulative with nothing.
(Writing)
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*Wood Carving
*-Canoe (U)
(Alphabet)

5.Canoe-
The canoe can traverse rivers and carry up to 2 units. 1-1-1
Cost: 20
(Wood Carving)
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I have a list of more of these, if anyone is interested. I was working on a comprehensive list of things to include in Civ and was only 1/8th finished when I gave it up for a while.

P.S. The entire tech tree was remodeled but not redesigned

[Evil Capitalist]

Another one that is needed- Classical music. This could give access to things like JS Bach's Cathedral, rather than theology. Also 'Opera house' (This is a very important 19th century improvement that could decline with the advent of television).

That's a point, we need Television. The tube is vital!
[This message has been edited by Evil Capitalist (edited September 15, 2000).]

[Tiberius]

I agree with Ultrasonix, we need more than 10 new techs. I hope there will be minor techs in Civ3 (civs could specialize themselves in major techs researching minor techs = multiple tech tree paths). Using multiple tech tree paths would change of course the entire tech trading system.

Otherwise the techs described above sound interesting.

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius on 09-15-2000 10:10 AM I agree with Ultrasonix, we need more than 10 new techs. I hope there will be minor techs in Civ3 (civs could specialize themselves in major techs researching minor techs = multiple tech tree paths). Using multiple tech tree paths would change of course the entire tech trading system.

I am certainly not opposed to more than 10 new techs, and multiple paths is a way to make room, better than how it was done in Master of Orion.

But the trouble is, there are so many choices, even for mutiple paths! I have a hundred on my own grosslist already, ranging from Paganism and The Needle to Dreamscape and Regeneration. We just can't include them all.

So I think it would be a great help for Firaxis if we could agree on the most important ones, those that can't be left out.

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

Some suggestions:
Philosophy+Monotheism->Enlightenment
Jewish faith is monotheistic but not a "prophetic" religion, speaking to ALL MANKIND. The advance "Enlightenment" could make "Missionary"-Units possible or more effective.

I'd say "Liberalism" and "Human Rights" are older than "Labor Union" and "Corporation".
So my suggestion for the tech-path would be rather:
Economy+Printing Press -> Liberalism
Enlightenment+Liberalism -> Human Rights

[DarkCloud]

Well then, I think at min the new game should include 10 new techs and at max it should contain 25 new techs.

More Ideas:
-----
*Advanced Hull Making
*-Longship (U)
(Ship Building)

12.Longship
2-2-2 can carry 1 unit.
Cost: 40
(Advanced Hull Making)
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*Police State
*-Police (U)
*-Police Station (C)
*-Police State (Government)
(Code of Laws, Communism)

*The Republic
-Republic (Government)
(Mathematics, University)

Navigation
-Caravel (U)
-Magellans Expedition (W)
*-Fishing Boat (U)
*-Fishing Nets (T)
(Seafaring)

8.Police-
Police have a rating of 1-1-1, but they make 2 unhappy people content
or 1 content person happy in a city. Limit of two police per city.
Cost: 70
(Police State)

9.Police Station-
All previous benefits remain in addition to; police can now make
2 content people happy in a city.
(Police State)

10.Police State Government-
Very restrictive, all units up to 4 are supported free.
Maximum rates: 60%; No Luxuries Allowed or Entertainers.
Police make 3 unhappy people content, limit increased to three.
(Police State)

11.Fishing Boat
A settler in the water. Beginning function: (Fishing Nets +1 food)
Cost: 50
(Navigation)

I think there should be special technologies that make certain city improvements obsolete. For example the advance "Leisue Industry" makes coliseums obsolete and you'd have to build "sport stadions" in your city to get the same effect. Or "Libraries" with the advance of "Printing Press" are something probably every town will have automatically and aren't built anymore by "public effort".

This idea is somehow already realized with the barracks, but it could be expanded on a larger scale.

[Evil Capitalist]

A flaw wwith the police idea- The first proper police force was founded in London in the 1830s. Communism was quite some time after that. I would switch communism and Railways

[Imran Siddiqui]

Definetly need Fascism! I don't know what leads to it (maybe automobile and Liberalism - it did blossom from anti-liberalism) and what comes off of it.

yes, Fascism is needed.
I'd suggest Mass Production and Communism as prerequisites.
Fascism was anti-communist but had communist elements and it is certainly a child of a society with mass production.

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by Evil Capitalist on 09-15-2000 09:32 AM Another one that is needed- Classical music. This could give access to things like JS Bach's Cathedral, rather than theology. Also 'Opera house' (This is a very important 19th century improvement that could decline with the advent of television).

The Opera House entertained only a small elite (as opposed to the Roman Colosseum and the Olympic Games), and as such had little influence on the course of civilization. The same could, to a lesser extent perhaps, be said about Classical Music.

If a case could be made for a music wonder in civ III,
I think it would have to be "Woodstock".

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui on 09-16-2000 03:53 AM Definetly need Fascism! I don't know what leads to it (maybe automobile and Liberalism - it did blossom from anti-liberalism) and what comes off of it.

I never saw Fascism described as blossom before !
Anyway, it comes from despair, and brings nothing but trouble. Compared to Socialism and Liberalism it has little content - basically it is just a form of dictatorship - and has played only a minor part in the history of human civilization. It is represented in Civ II by the toppling of a democratic government.



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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[Evil Capitalist]

quote: Originally posted by Ribannah on 09-16-2000 10:18 AM The Opera House entertained only a small elite (as opposed to the Roman Colosseum and the Olympic Games), and as such had little influence on the course of civilization. The same could, to a lesser extent perhaps, be said about Classical Music.

How about every happy citizen (Who we'll just assume is a rich, middle class citizen with cultured tendencies) produces 1 gold/turn. In fact we could extend the concept and make the stadium produce e.g. 1 gold per content citizen.

*Waits for everyone to call him a snob*

[Ribannah]

* BUMP *

So far nobody has seriously challenged my top 10!
Does that mean you all agree?

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

OK, you wanted a challenge. Some of those techs I suggest are almost identic with yours, but OK, here I go:
1. Mechanics
simply replaces Invention, I don't like that name.
2. Printing Press
prereqs: Literacy, Mechanics
leads to: Bureaucracy, Modern Science
3. Mercantilism
prereqs: Feudalism, Banking (I have the german version, don't know how this is really named)
leads to: Industrialization, Economy
4. Nationalism
prereqs: Mercantilism, Feudalism
leads to: Conscription
5. Bureaucracy
prereqs: Printing Press, Mercantilism
leads to: Industrialization, Conscription
6. Modern Science
prereqs: Printing Press, University
leads to: Chemistry, ToG, Pharmaceutics
7. Pharmaceutics
prereqs: Modern Science, Medicine
leads to: GE
8. Electronic Warfare
prereqs: Mobile Warfare, Computer
leads to: Stealth Technic
9. Leisure Industry
prereqs: Mass Media, Democracy
leads to: nothing
10. Mass Media
prereqs: Radio, Mass Production
leads to: Leisure Industry

Sorry, I'm too busy now to point out effects or why I decided for which prereqs, if there are questions I'll become more detailed.

[DarkCloud]

Hey. I challenged them... did you read my ideas?

[Ribannah]

[quote]Originally posted by wernazuma on 09-29-2000 03:32 PM
OK, you wanted a challenge. Some of those techs I suggest are almost identic with yours, but OK, here I go:[/quote}

Finally! Thank you, Wernazuma. Cool list, but some comments.

1. Mechanics
> simply replaces Invention, I don't like that name.

Good point, there has always been invention after all. A replacement shouldn't count as a slot though, so you can have another pick

3. Mercantilism
I'm hesitant about adding another economics tech, I don't think this gives much extra over Economics and The Corporation.

4. Nationalism
This is a good one, almost made my own cut but I could not drop Socialism or Liberalism. Maybe it could simply replace Conscription, which is not much of an "advance" IMHO.

5. Bureaucracy
Hehe, this is certainly no advance, but going backwards! It is represented in Civ II by Corruption.

6. Modern Science
This needs some explanation.

8. Electronic Warfare
Hmm, in my a possible alternative to Stealth, which has been much overrated. Can't see how it LEADS to Stealth. A unit for this tech: the Apache Helicopter.
One drawback though, an overlap with Rocketry.

9. Leisure Industry
> leads to: nothing

Great insight
Problem is, there has been leisure industry since the dawn of human civilization, so I don't see where it would fit in.

10. Mass Media
Alternative to my "Telecommunication", which I prefer since it's broader and easier to place in the tech tree.

Thanks again! I'm working on a complete tech tree now and your ideas have certainly helped.

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[Ribannah]

Darkcloud, some comments:

*Bartering
I see no difference with Trade.

*School
A City Improvement, rather than a tech. To go with Philosophy.

*Wood Carving
This is supposed to be known by all beginning civs

>Well then, I think at min the new game should include 10 new techs and at max it should contain 25 new techs.

That is why you made no challenge! We're talking about the Top 10 here, there could me more than 10 new ones in total.

*Advanced Hull Making
Can't see this as a major advance. Where in the tree?

*Police State
A form of (improved?) dictatorship. Could be a government type to go with Nationalism.

*-Fishing Boat (U)
*-Fishing Nets (T)
Supposed to be known at the start. Comes way before citybuilding!!


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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[Stuff2]

quote: Originally posted by Ribannah on 09-16-2000 10:18 AM The Opera House entertained only a small elite (as opposed to the Roman Colosseum and the Olympic Games), and as such had little influence on the course of civilization. The same could, to a lesser extent perhaps, be said about Classical Music. If a case could be made for a music wonder in civ III, I think it would have to be "Woodstock".

Actually, during the 19 th century "classical music" was the music for the citizens. If you lived in a fairly big city at that time you where probably listening to classical music beacouse it was that periods 'pop'-music. On the other hand, most people did not live in the cities. And bye the end of that century many workers from the 'uncultivated' rural population had become a major part of the citizens bringing there own musical tradition with them. And then as classical music became more experimental and hard to understand the folk-music, and jazz took it's place as the music for the citizens. And we can see the same thing happen again in the fiftees, as jazz was starting to get experimental and hard to understand Elvis arrived with new music that was cool and yet simple.
But this was not my point, my point was that even though in a way the classical music hasn't been known bye anyone it has strongly influenced those people living in the cities, and during history it is the citizens who have played the biggest role. Farmers has ofcourse played a significant role but their role has almost been the same all the time. The cities has been the place where ideologies has been born. And it's in the cities most social and technologic progress has been made. On the other hand, classical music today has since long ago lost it power to spellbound the masses.
I'll give an example: Lizth (greatest pianist of the 19 th century). When he gave consertos women in the audiance fainted when they saw him, Paganini (greatest violinist of that period) was considered getting help from the devil when he played (he spellbounded his audiance and so did Lizth). They where actually that periods 'Pop-heroes'.
I think a city improvement called 'consert hall' or 'Opera house' could be included. And I am sure that in 50 years from now, pop and rock will be played in those places (and most of the youths will be listening to things that we are unable to imagine).
Classical music is just a label, in fact music has constantly changed both in function and expression since the dawn of history, the only difference with todays music is that the changes are faster (but maybe a listener from 2500 AD wont hear the difference from the sixtees rock or the ninethees discomusic).

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by Stuff2 on 09-30-2000 09:46 AM Actually, during the 19 th century "classical music" was the music for the citizens. If you lived in a fairly big city at that time you where probably listening to classical music ...

How?



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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[Dienstag]

I think Stuff2 is refering to Franz Liszt (don't ask me how you pronounce that), above.

To anyone who says classical music has had little effect on civilization, I have 3 words: Star Wars soundtrack !

[SWPIGWANG The Second]

Modern Science = Scientific Method?

[Tiberius]

quote: Originally posted by Dienstag on 09-30-2000 12:02 PM I think Stuff2 is refering to Franz Liszt (don't ask me how you pronounce that), above.

You just simply pronounce Frantz List. Btw, "liszt" means wheat in hungarian

[DarkCloud]

Advanced Hull Making:

It comes from Ship Building (Advanced Caravel) which comes from: Navigation (Caravel and Magellans Expedition) and Map Making (Trieme and Lighthouse)

I once worked out a new tech chart until the year 2100 with improvements such as Laser Mounted Warfare and Genetic Discoveries.

I can list them if you like...