A Slice of Civ3 Feedback From The Official MOO3 Forum

[yin26]

Yin: "Yep, I simply couldn't stand to be around here had the game been a huge success."

Markos: "That's not what the "jeff morris law" says."

Morris: "In this situation [No Bugs], the final product is actually an ending, and those who spent the last year or two following it are faced with saying goodbye to the friends they've made online and moving on to another title."

[yin26]

Folks, that's the QA director for Civ3. Make sense now? "Ah, no need to get rid of the bugs. I'm doing these guys a favor!"

[Ming]

Originally posted by yin26
Not good enough. How about a webpage updated more than once a month? How about including an FAQ

Good constructive criticism... some valid points.

The fact of the matter is, Firaxis burned itself pre-release, stepped in its own crap shortly after release and is now proving itself Superior in the Idiocy Department by saying:
"Since we don't know how to communicate, we are just going to shutup ... but watch to buried hints and occasional smart-a** remarks from us in the meantime."

Personal attacks... total BS... you putting your own negative spin on anything they do... Total Whining at best.

I have no problem with the former... but the lattter just makes you look like an ass...

There is a BIG difference between pointing out what's wrong and whining... but you obviously don't understand the difference.

[yin26]

Yeah, sure. *yawn*

The didn't totally blow it with the leaked e-mails, the "missing" designer notes, and on and on. You watching a different channel, Troll Boy?

[Zealot]

Originally posted by MarkG
totally wrong definition!! it's one thing to criticise, to post your opinion. it's another to post it 30 times over and over again. THAT is a whiner...

Congratulations, Markos! You have now officially become a whiner, for constantly whining about Yin's whining!

[Ming]

Yeah Yin... proof again that you don't have a clue of the difference between constructive criticism and just being a jerk.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by yin26
Morris: "In this situation [No Bugs], the final product is actually an ending, and those who spent the last year or two following it are faced with saying goodbye to the friends they've made online and moving on to another title."

you are forgeting the general idea of the article and isolate a single sentence...

[yin26]

Sure, Ming. You came in so measured and all.

Right, Markos. Keep saying that to yourself 100 times. Wait, you already have ... and posted it, apparently, nearly as many.

[Ming]

You know Yin... the real sad part about all this is that you probably truely think you are taking the high ground...

Not once has Firaxis called you personally an idiot, or that you wade in your own crap... but for you... those might be considered some of the nicer things you have said about Firaxis.

While I don't think anybody here can argue that communtication could be far improved, or that the game was rushed into the market, or that the game has flaws, or that one might question some of their design decisions... you have gone far beyond constructive criticism. Most of your comments are now just petty insults... and you just blow off any criticism aimed at you by going yawn... and not addressing it. Interestingly enough, it's the very thing you are abusing Firaxis for

[Cookie Monster]

I used to respect the individual for (his/her) inputs to the flaws of Civ3. However this schoolyard petty bickering evaporates the validity of the original arguements. Take your shots at me and attempt to reduce my opinion to rubble. I am WELL AWARE of your OUTSTANDING abilities to absolutely shoot down all those who attempt to criticize you. But in doing so you reveal that your are truely a child at heart. For you see my brother, no matter what you say there are many who will keep playing this game, flawed or not. Yes call those people simpletons, but is not the purpose of gaming to be entertained?

Can one truely find fault with someone who is entertained by something that is not well received by others? Are you not any better then a religious zealot who forces his will upon others and not accepting the word "no" to his ovetures?

Actually I already know how my post and my ego is going to be destroyed by your holiness. So this whole message should then be dismissed.

Have a nice life..................................

I'm going back to computer gaming, something I enjoy immensely.

[godinex]

Originally posted by yin26
Now I know people will think I'm just being selective, but if you wander over to the off-topic official MOO3 forum, these are the standard comments. So to the people who say that the whiners here are just a vocal minority, God help you all if even just ONE of the other gaming forums showed up here to register stuff like this:
_____

I sure hope that with all the changes QS is making from MOO2 that they don't do what Firaxis did to Civ 3 - i.e. take a great game and then ruin it thinking that they were "improving" it.

Case in point Civ 3 corruption issue "if player has too many cities then corruption will become rampant and this will improve the game" - WRONG.

"We want to streamline Civ 3 so we'll drop the movies and this will improve the game" again wrong. I for one, was expecting even better movies for Civ 3.

Wonder movies shouldn't have been axed. I spent lots of time, effort, and planning (heck, I can't even BUY it now) to get a unique wonder of the world and I don't get to see some gratifying movie... its just disappointing, like Cola without fizzle.

The game is formly based on warfare with the entire playing experience revolving around military units and declaring wars. Corruption does absolutely nothing to curb conquest, why would it? Corruption merely reduces your income and production in the farther cities, so what? Instead of producing 6 shields like a city close to your capitol is, it produces only 2- big deal, just use it solely for churning out your ancient swordsmen to attack your neighbors... it's better then having no city there! If there was perhaps a penalty for expanding too fast and far instead of just a diminishing benefit then it would actually work. More cities = more citizens = more research, so expand until the last tundra and desert has your flag raised on it.

And with the way they made the Civ3 AI, peace is not only boring but extremly difficult to maintain for the following reasons:

1. The AI still declares war and attacks without any logical reason. Sometimes a civ will be 'polite' with me, and I'm midning my own business and out of the blue he sends two units to a heavily fortified city and surprise attacks me. Why??? Also, AI will often randomly demand some token fee as tribute- like "give me 6 gold or feel our wrath!". Now, maybe a leader of an ancient despotism *might* actually do this, but a democracy in 2040?! Not only this, but usually the civ is weaker then me or supposedly "is in awe of" my culture. So much for culture making a difference.

2. Conducting trade with the AI is futile. The scenario is all too common. Civ A has strategic resource B. I have a few resources of my own, so I send my diplomat to work something out. I ask for his resource, and I offer a resource of my own which he does not have. No? Ok, how bout my resource plus some gold per turn? Still no??? Geez, ok how about TWO of my resources for your ONE resource? STILL NO!! I have a screenshot somewhere of my diplomat asking for Incense, and I put Dyes, Horses, Iron AND Furs on the table-- He refused! And I assure you, this is very common, the AI simply asks for too much from you, so why go through the hassle, just declare war and take what you want by force.

3. The AI likes to build in small otherwise useless pockets within your still forming nation... I know I've heard all the arguments about how it's a 'good' tactic but the fact remains, its annoying! You have a nice layout for a modest nation and while your culture borders are building up some jerk sends in a settler in a tiny pocket void of your cultural influence as of yet and settles there, ignoring the lush green valley to the north with gold and ivory... We're humans not computers, stuff like this #### us off and that's when the big stick comes out!

4. Border tresspassing- Why does the AI like to use your nation as a giant public race track for their units? And if you want to try to work something out through diplomacy, chances are they will declare war...

Sorry for the ranting, Its jsut that I had so much faith in Civ3... I honestly gave it alot of tries... hours and hours of gameplay trying to find something good about the game, but besides the nifty unit animations there just isnt anything there But that might just be me..

The whole corruption model smacks of "no play testing". I've even noticed that if I build a few cities farther away, and get them established, THEN build more cities closer in, the corruption in my outer cities increases... (in my ESTABLISHED cities).

To add insult to injury, firaxis simply did not listen to its gamers, since the patch hardly addressed anything of real value. Just out of curiousity... how long has the game been out? And can fighters conduct air superiortiy missions successfully yet????

The only strategy that has held my attention at all is the tech broker strategy... which doesn't work even 1/4 as well post-patch.

What I love about the way the MOO developers are working is giving us tons of details on game mechanics and modelling, and keeping the super hush hush secrets in the realm of storyline and art. Keep up the good work lads!!

my other pet peeves are: having to move (and attack with) each unit individually; govt types; ancient wars lasting more than several lifetimes; advances based on weird techs (e.g. communism = police stations); ltd tech tree; advisors wearing someone else's national costume; no reflection of switch in emphasis on cities in ancient times, to land/castles/dynasties in medieval times, and then back again to cities in modern times.... rants on and on to ever decreasing effect

All in all, Civ 3 is one of the worst games i have ever had the misfortune to play. MOM is in my opinion far superior to the civ series. MOM had better pathfinding than civ 2 - units ALWAYS found their way. Better graphics, better combat system, more originality, just as good AI (1.3 patch). I spent far more hours on MOM and MOO2 than any other game! I just wish that MOM worked in windows

Well... i must also admit that civ3 wasn't all that it cracked up to be. I didn't get the game right when it was out... So I was actually pretty excited to get it. I kept looking on the site for more information and screenshots.. I ended up gettin it for Christmas. I played the game for about 3 days straight, no problems really.. seemed like a great game. (Although I really hadn't done much) When I first met a person, I really liked the new diplomacy, you could ask and give much better then anything i'd seen before. (Cept maybe Ctp2)

But that's when it started a downfall. The turns seemed to get longer and lonnnnger... and it soon took a full minute or so for the Ai's to take their turn. Now, i figured it wasn't that bad.. and i played on.. I soon conquered a few enemy cities, and i was learning about culture a bit more.. I found out i could take cities culturally, and I set out to do it. I also learned about the corruption, now, i found it wasent bad, and i still played on.

Then i found out that the turns got longer... it soon took a good 4 minutes of waiting for an AI turn to complete... I realized a few loop-holes in the AI diplomacy. (Some have been mentioned) But others were the in-ablity to offer, or to demand cities. The AI simply wouldn't give em up, and they didn't want to give anything for mine either. I could offer every one of my cities for 1 gold, and he wouldn't take it. I could also do some other things. I found he would go to extra-ordinary measures to get advances.

But still, I decided to play on. Now, i was gettin pretty darn annoyed, it was now taking a full, if not more, 8 minutes of waiting for the AI turn to complete. (That is just sittin there, waiting for the little "Please wait" sign to change.) I soon tryed a few things, takin enemy and allied moves off, taking every other possible thing that could bog the game down off, and it only got worse.

But... i played on.. i was deturmined to get up to Modern tanks. I did, and i was dissapointed. I also noticed a few military loopholes. Knights defeating tanks etc... I remember them talking about luck, but is it at all possible for a knight to beat a tank? No. Also, i would have liked a bit more varaity in modern units. Tanks are obviously the beat choice for almost anything. Modern armor are for defending. That combo can't be beat.. except by nukes. And even nukes (when i got them) wern't all that pleasing... they just wern't as evil as they were in the other civs... i didnt feel as satasfied. The land destruction around the blast zone was nice, but i would have liked the chance of units surviving to go down to about... 20%?

Bah.. and one more thing.. the pace of the game was Un-barably slow. It's taken me since Christmas to get to the modern age. I still havent gotten everything. I decided to stop playing for awhile...

Bah... overall.. it was a good game in the beginning, (When it wasn't bogged down, and it didn't have as many overall problems. And it was terrible late game...
____

After looking for equally postive comments to post here, I gave up. Feel free to post the one or two that you might find. By the way, I am not saying I endorse any of these particular gripes, but I certainly do endorse the overall sentiment that Civ3 is a horribly sub-par game, and I think it is worth mentioning that the Civ3 criticism is strong (very strong) at other sites besides here.

So? Patch like crazy, Firaxis!

http://forums.prospero.com/n/mb/mess...on3&msg=6488.1

I wll vote for yuo for president. You are rigth!

[Antonin]

Originally posted by Encomium
If Firaxis didn't want criticism it should have told us there was no way to create scenarios in Civ III as there is in Civ II. What a rip-off that is!!

Firaxis also likely hires shills to defend their flawed product on the forums. Well, it isn't working. Most of us will be back playing Civ II by Summer, or earlier.

Civ III

It's a computer game, son. It's just a game. There's a whole big wide world out there, outside of computer games and this forum.

If you feel so crushed and betrayed and PERSONALLY INSULTED by whatever you think is wrong with Civ 3, maybe you're getting in a little too deep. It's only a game...

Geez. I've been absent from this forum for a while, but here I come back and its the same melodrama.

There is no Santa Claus.

It's only a game.

[Immortal Wombat]

Originally posted by MarkG
glad you now remember(?)

Yup

- the way diplomacy negotiations are being done.
- ai's over-the-sea invasions and generally the whole ai
- right-click menus
- city interface(but not the city managment screen, ctp2 had more options)
- leaders and armies(even with the same combat/stacks model)
- culture model(of course)
- domination vistory

• Diplomacy negotiations, okay
• AI... yeah
• Right-Click menus? CtP2 has them
• City Interface? What's that if its not the managment screen? The individual city screen as opposed to the national manager?
• Leaders are easy enough, I don't think many people will be happy with degrading the stacking model. I suspect we could stop armies unless you have a leader unit if it was wanted. I can't see it catching on though.
• Culture model. Fine.
• Domination Victory. What does that entail, no doubt its possible to implement.

With the exception of the UI things and actual game features, I'm sure someone could make you a personalised CivToPower2.3 mod if you ask

satisfied?

Yes. Thankyou

[bahoo]

Originally posted by Ming
Personal attacks... total BS... you putting your own negative spin on anything they do... Total Whining at best.

I have no problem with the former... but the lattter just makes you look like an ass...

There is a BIG difference between pointing out what's wrong and whining... but you obviously don't understand the difference.

Ming, you live in a dream world!

Yin's dead on with his comments about Firaxis not posting anything of content, but rather snide remarks.

I stop on these forums once every couple weeks to see if there is a new patch yet so I can try the game out again. Last time I stopped on someone had posted wondering when the next patch would be. There was a whole lot of Firaxis posts, but not one answered the question, they were all just rude snide remarks or poor attempts at humour.

As a matter of fact, I have yet to see any post from Firaxis of any content. I hear you and MarkG defending them all the time. I even looked for the answers from Firaxis to the many legitimate questions being asked of them that MarkG claimed were "out there". I sure as hell haven't found any.

So before you start complaining about everyone whining and not giving constructive criticism (which there actually has been a lot of, but is summarily ignored by Firaxis), point me towards something constructive from Firaxis. And don't just give me this crap about it "being out there" if only I look hard enough.

To date the only definitive thing that I've seen Firaxis say is that they can't say anything definitive, because they're afraid we might "expect" something from them. Well, you're damn right I expect something, I expect a playable game that doesn't suck and take a week to play 1 game of, that or I expect my 50 bucks back.

[Ming]

Originally posted by bahoo
Yin's dead on with his comments about Firaxis not posting anything of content, but rather snide remarks.

You are generalizing...

If you had taken the time to read my comments to Yin in context...
But why bother, you have your ax to grind, so why should you be fair.

One more time in simple terms...

I agree with much of Yin says... it's how he says it that is the problem. Instead of constructive criticism, he calls them idiots, or makes assine comments like "they are laying in their own crap" and other rude comments.

There is nothing wrong with not liking game... or saying that it has it flaws... But much of what he posts now are just petty insults... something I would expect from a young child... not an adult who used to be a very respected member of the gaming community.

[Antonin]

Originally posted by The Andy-Man
it depends, profesional pissers off can get what they want cs they annoy the person so much that person just wants them to go away......

Daddy! Daddy! Look at me! I pooped on the carpet! Give me some attention right now or I'll do it again!

[yin26]

Markos and Ming: I don't care what you guys say...next Christmas, you're only getting socks from me! And I'll probably rip some holes in them first.

[Ming]

Originally posted by yin26
Markos and Ming: I don't care what you guys say...next Christmas, you're only getting socks from me! And I'll probably rip some holes in them first.

Heck... I'll be sending you Civ III

[yin26]

...and here I thought we were friends!

[Ming]

Originally posted by yin26
...and here I thought we were friends!

Hmmm... socks with holes in them vs Civ III... Hmmm...

Tough choice

[TechWins]

Actually by that time Civ3 might be the game it was supposed to be...and that's without mods.

[Zealot]

Originally posted by Ming


Hmmm... socks with holes in them vs Civ III... Hmmm...

Tough choice

Hey! At least your wife can patch the socks!

[TechWins]

Hey! At least your wife can patch the socks!

Yeah, but he better be careful about insulting the socks too much, becuse he could easily get called a whiner. "If you don't want to wear socks with holes in them, then just don't wear them at all!"

[Tarquelne]

"Yin's dead on with his comments about Firaxis not posting anything of content, but rather snide remarks."

The day before the above comment was made - the same day as a similar comment of Yin's, I believe, a Firaxian cleared up a rules quesition in another thread. (Mike B, in "Another look at combat.")

Here's a crow... here's a fork.

On Firaxis posting "snide" comments: Nothing wrong with that. Seems only fair.

I havn't counted, but I think they participate more in the Civfanatics forum. Possibly because there have been no personal insults leveled against them there?

Frankly, if I was a Firaxian, I'd ignore Apolyton. I'd hate to particapate here as someone making $$ from Civ3. All the accusations of non-objectivity I'd recieve would make participation impossible. (All the other sorts of comments I've seen Firaxiians recieve wouldn't help either.) But I'd _want_ to participate... I imagine I'd be reduced to making snide remarks too.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat [*]Right-Click menus? CtP2 has them

scpecifically the build submenu on cities

[*]City Interface? What's that if its not the managment screen? The individual city screen as opposed to the national manager?

correct. in ctp2 you often end up with 2-3 windows...

[*]Domination Victory. What does that entail, no doubt its possible to implement.

instead of waiting for a conquest victory, you win earlier after controlling 75% of the land

[MarkG]

Originally posted by bahoo
As a matter of fact, I have yet to see any post from Firaxis of any content.

do a search for post by users with names containing the word "firaxis"....

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Antonin
It's a computer game, son. It's just a game. There's a whole big wide world out there, outside of computer games and this forum.

If you feel so crushed and betrayed and PERSONALLY INSULTED by whatever you think is wrong with Civ 3, maybe you're getting in a little too deep. It's only a game...

Geez. I've been absent from this forum for a while, but here I come back and its the same melodrama.

There is no Santa Claus. It's only a game.

Antonin, you're right about everything except Santa Clause. Not believe in Santa Clause! You might as well not believe in fairies.

[Immortal Wombat]

scpecifically the build submenu on cities

Units/Buildings/Wonders? Or others
(having Civ3 might aid my half of this discussion...)

correct. in ctp2 you often end up with 2-3 windows...

2. The build menu and city management menu, but the latter has 4 tabs. It can be a bit annoying.

So other than UI issues which are unresolvable in any Civ game...

instead of waiting for a conquest victory, you win earlier after controlling 75% of the land

Open script.slc, add the following lines:

HandleEvent(BeginTurn) 'Markos_Personal_Victory_Handler' post {
      int_t  x;
      int_t  y;
      int_t  MarkosTiles;
      location_t  tmpMarkosLoc;
      
      MarkosTiles = 0;
      for(x = 0; x < GetMapWidth(); x = x + 1){
               for(y = 0; y < GetMapHeight(); y = y + 1){
                     makelocation(x,y,tmpMarkosLoc);
                     if(CellOwner(tmpMarkosLoc) == 1){
                             MarkosTiles = MarkosTiles + 1;
                     }
               }
      }
      if(MarkosTiles >= 3*GetMapWidth()*GetMapHeight()/4){
             GameOver(1,1);
     }
}

And that folks, is modding.

Actually by that time Civ3 might be the game it was supposed to be...and that's without mods.

Yah. Right.

[Steve Clark]

I'm surprised that no one has brought up the fact that yin used to be the moderator of this forum (Civ3-General) until he got "fired" by Markos about a year ago. Still some bad feelings remain from that situation.

"Nothing is owed for volunteering, nor is anything to be expected except perhaps for a thank you if the job was well served."

[TechWins]

Yah. Right.

Hence the word of "might" which implies possibility to an event. Whereas your thought process implies of only one occurrence, and that sure is hell ain't having Civ3 becoming the game it is supposed to be. I'll go with my thought process, which leaves a window open to possibilities, and you can go with your thought process, "no chance in hell".

Seriously, though, I don't see why Firaxis wouldn't want to exploit more money out of Civ3. In exploiting more money out of Civ3, Civ3 has a chance of becoming the game it was supposed to be. IMO, I see Firaxis trying to exploit more money out of Civ3 within the year, which is completely understandable for a company to do. Again, I'll go back to my word usage of "might", because as of right now Civ3 = might and only time can tell what might will equal.


Yes, I realize what I jus said probably made very little sense.