Negativity is all too common

[OneInTen]

It's not just restricted to civ 3.

It has nothing to do with quality ... there will always be people who hate something. On the big wide internet, it's pretty easy to find people who think something, well, sucks.

For example:

The Beatles (only like the biggest selling group ever)
The Queen of England (Even as an Australian who'd prefer a republic, the Queen seems pretty harmless to me)
Diablo II (which sold what, 3+ million copies? Won multiple game of the year awards. Was enjoyed by many)
The Titanic (Biggest grossing movie ever wasn't it? Obsessed fans going back to see it multiple times all over the world)
And just things in general (someone else who obviously had more time than me to make a list)

Lack of critics doesn't make something great - it makes it uninteresting, or obscure, or both.

The true measure of greatness is in the people who like something, not who hate it.

[Dida]

Originally posted by OneInTen
It's not just restricted to civ 3.

It has nothing to do with quality ... there will always be people who hate something. On the big wide internet, it's pretty easy to find people who think something, well, sucks.

The true measure of greatness is in the people who like something, not who hate it.

This is true.
But you have to remember, the difference between a great product and an inferior product is the amount and percentage of people who says this thing sucks.

[yin26]

The true measure of greatness is in the people who like something, not who hate it.

Even if that's like 5% of the people questioned...

[OneInTen]

Even if that's like 5% of the people questioned...

Especially if it's only something that appeals to a small group of people. It's minorities that add spice and flavour to an otherwise increasingly hetrogenous world.

[yin26]

Again, fair enough. I happen to like pickles and milk, for example ... but I'm not convinced that makes it great.

[OneInTen]

The point was more that if I, and everyone else on a pickles and milk forum, tell you that pickles and milk suck and that you're an idiot for producing such a stupid meal then I'd not really be proving that they're a bad meal.

I would possibly be causing myself to wonder what I was doing on a pickles and milk forum however

PS: Ewww, pickles (damn, where's the hurl smilie? )

[yin26]

LOL! Well, the point made is clear: "Greatness" measured only buy those who like it makes no sense. Surely there is more to the equation.

As for why critics of Civ3 remain on this board, I suspect you can make some good guesses.

[OneInTen]

It's not an "equation" though. Culture, despite the way it is modelled in civ 3, is not a matter of numbers. Nor is it like some would have you believe, a matter of calculating percentages.

Is civ 3 a better game than civ 2? Was Nirvana the most influential group of the 90s? Was Mozart a better composer than Bach? I don't know in an objective sense, and I don't think anyone can know.

It's all relative to the individual's tastes (In my case, Yes, No, Don't care). I'm sure I could find someone who completely disagrees with me on all 3 without any trouble.

So I say that if it makes people happy, then that's all there is to it. In a world where people punching each other in the head is considered sport, bridge is in the winter olympics, and I can eat cookie dough from a prebought tube if I want to, who am I to say what's great?

As for why people are still here, well, I'd say it's on account of the fact they're not vulcans.

[yin26]

Elegantly done. *applauds*

[Terser]

Peruse the boards of some contemporary (and not so new) game titles and you'll quickly be able to see the wheat separated from the chaff. Wheat:

An oldie.

An oldie and a goody.

And a new goody.

What do we see? Discussions about gameplay...because there is gameplay worthy of discussion. People may express dislike for these titles in the forums, but they are quickly shouted down by the overwhelming majority of players who are satisfied. And players who feel unhappy with the game don't linger like hungry ghosts--they quickly decide that the game in question is simply not for them and they move on feeling disenchanted (but not angry).

Games that are buggy and incomplete do not form tightly knit communities such as these. People who feel disappointed in a game are not going to be able to discuss gameplay issues or exult in the sheer genius of the designers. They're going to want to discuss what they feel is wrong with the game and throw out ideas on how it may be fixed. If enough people express these sentiments then-one would hope-the game's publisher would take heed and make some changes.

For most of us, a Civ title is not a game, it is THE GAME. When we complain, it is not an attack on Firaxis itself and certainly not against the people who work there--it is simply our way of expressing dismay at what this once great series has come too. Unless or until CivIII experiences some sort of revitilization, you will probably continue to see some negativity in these forums.

[OneInTen]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumd...?s=&forumid=45

Hark, is that discussion about gameplay I see before thine eyes?

[FNBrown]

Does anyone else detect the irony in the fact that a thread about negativity has probably produced some of the most civilized debate this board has seen in a long time?

[yin26]

Screw you! ( )

[FNBrown]

Ok... perhaps it was less irony and more a result of an exceptionally rare byproduct of a simple law of percentages...

... I mean, after all, even a community of total a$$es is bound to have something nice to say to each other once in a great while.

[yin26]

Apology accepted.

[Dis]

I blame this on Metallica and heavy metal music

[notyoueither]

You wanna know why Apolyton is haunted?

It's the ghosts of civs past. And CTPs.

The current generation is decidedly different from its ancestors. That will lead a certain number of the older fans to decry the current incarnation.

Yes, the designers (publishers actually) could have assuaged this by releasing a better product, but there would still be the orphans who do not enjoy the new concepts.

With time, and patches, some of the ghosts will be laid to rest. However, some of the nay-sayers will never like it, no matter how polished the game becomes.

Just my two bits worth.

Salve

[CharlesUFarley]

Obviously we have two streams crossing, on one side we have the 'praise' of the game, and on the other the 'criticism' of it. But when you get right down to it, it's all a matter of preference based on the individual. And I don't agree that mass or 'greater than' equates to truth or fact. Preference simply cannot be argued, OiT - you and I shared that dance many moons ago as we ranted and argued over opinion, if you recall.

Praise is the release of posative emotion, meanwhile criticism is the release of disapointment or negative emotion. Neither is wrong, or wrongly meant. And both should be accepted in any normal society as common. Fact is, the game is neither good, nor bad, it's what we make of it. And when you cross these two streams of thinking or belief you have a meaningless circle. But one thing remains certain, only criticism will improve the game, not praise.

IMO, praise creates the increasing sales channelled through reviews and advertising, and increasing sales creates the delusion of "everything is fine the way it is" in the eyes of Firaxis, therefor praise will only decrease our chances of getting them to correct or provide of that which we (the critic) feel is needed. So although both streams are opposed to each other, only one of them is potentially dangerous to the game's improvement, and thats praise.

However, everyone has a right to speak their mind and these forums are free so party on wayne! But never argue opinion, keep the arguments and debates topic based.

Charles.

[H Tower]

Originally posted by notyoueither
With time, and patches, some of the ghosts will be laid to rest. However, some of the nay-sayers will never like it, no matter how polished the game becomes.



Salve

can i crawl back into my coffin now that you've dragged me out? civ3 is a tragic loss, and a blow to the genre, leave it at that.

[Chronus]

But one thing remains certain, only criticism will improve the game, not praise.

Well, I have to disagree here. I know that it is praise, or a "good job" from my manager, that encourages me to continue with my work. Perhaps you meant a healthy balance of both criticism and praise would do the trick?

But never argue opinion, keep the arguments and debates topic based.

You must be joking!

[Harovan]

Originally posted by CharlesUFarley
Obviously we have two streams crossing, on one side we have the 'praise' of the game, and on the other the 'criticism' of it...

Ways too simple. We call it "Black and White painting" here, I don't know if there's an English equivalent.

You forget about the large mass, who are content with the game, knowing that it's far away from being perfect, and that needs to get big improvements to match the Civ2 populatity. People who still bear hope about the next patch (which seems to be released soon), and a decent gold edition and something like that. People who are aware, that once paying 40 or 50 bucks doesn't give them a right to "be licked till they moan" (sorry, bad analogy). People who do neither praise the game nor complain (both repeating the same words like parrots), but just play.

[Willem]

Originally posted by CharlesUFarley
Obviously we have two streams crossing, on one side we have the 'praise' of the game, and on the other the 'criticism' of it.

There are some who are capable of both you know. Maybe you prefer to see things in black & white, but there's always a lot of grey in the middle.
Just because someone has some good things to say about the game doesn't automatically make them a "fanboy", which seems to be the assumption that many of the "whiners" are making.

[Sze]

I think the Beatles would be far less popular if their third album (A Hard Days Night) was rushed out of the studio with auditory glitches, incomplete tracks, and an album jacket that listed more songs than the album actually contained.

Us whiners are not whining because we find it too difficult, or too different; we're not complaining because it's not our cup of tea. Just the opposite, Civ is very much what we like and we'd love a new challenge. We are complaining because the game is broken, flawed, incomplete, and ill-conceived. It's not our "opinion" that these things are true; it's fact. If you fanboys want to overlook the obvious, that's your prerogative.

Personally, I'm sticking around to dissuade as many people as possible from buying this game.

[hoonak]

some quotes and responses:

...But one thing remains certain, only criticism will improve the game, not praise.

Not quite right. Praise and criticism from the gaming public provide feedback to the publisher. Improvement will only happen if the publisher decides to act upon this feedback. Some publishers will ignore this feedback unless they are given a good reason not to. This best reason is money. The implied message to Firaxis is "fix the game or we will not buy any more of your games". Those of us who are criticizing this game should not purcahse any other Firaxis product until they fix Civ3.

...civ3 is a tragic loss...

In it's current form, but it can still be saved.

...People who are aware, that once paying 40 or 50 bucks doesn't give them a right to "be licked till they moan" (sorry, bad analogy)...

Unless that's what they paid for (I looooove Las Vegas)

...Us whiners are not whining because we find it too difficult, or too different; we're not complaining because it's not our cup of tea. Just the opposite, Civ is very much what we like and we'd love a new challenge. We are complaining because the game is broken, flawed, incomplete, and ill-conceived. It's not our "opinion" that these things are true; it's fact...

thanks and I agree.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Chronus
Well, I have to disagree here. I know that it is praise, or a "good job" from my manager, that encourages me to continue with my work. Perhaps you meant a healthy balance of both criticism and praise would do the trick?

Praising and gloating about how good the game is inside the forums in the direct audience of Critics won't improve the game, no. And telling Firaxis how good of a job they did will only take away from us trying to improve the game, because they'll hear all these compliments and think everything is okay and they'll be less likely to fix things. Get it now? Don't twist my words!

You must be joking!

No, I'm not. Every individual has an opinion about everything and a view point. What is the sense in arguing views or opinions with someone, when they aren't willing to change or alter their views? You can't change people, and you definately can't change the state of mind someone is in when they firmly believe something. Thats what makes people unique from each other, difference and preference. State you're opinion and move on, don't argue it. Otherwise it will be a joke!

Charles.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by hoonak
some quotes and responses:Not quite right. Praise and criticism from the gaming public provide feedback to the publisher. Improvement will only happen if the publisher decides to act upon this feedback. Some publishers will ignore this feedback unless they are given a good reason not to. This best reason is money. The implied message to Firaxis is "fix the game or we will not buy any more of your games". Those of us who are criticizing this game should not purcahse any other Firaxis product until they fix Civ3.

Here's how it works, appraisilists feel threatened by critics because critics are reminding the appraisilists of that which is wrong with the game. People don't like to be reminded of what is wrong with something they enjoy, simple. Critics on the other hand are threatened by appraisilists because if the voice of 'praise' is louder than the voice of "what is wrong with the game" Firaxis will think that it's fine the way it is, and move on. It's fine to express how much you like the game, but when you're 'praise' of the game interferes with the criticism, it's like mowing down protesters because the government wants through to cut down some trees. Let the critics complain I say, because it's the complaints and negativity in mass that will get Firaxis to come to bearings with all this. But keep in mind, even as negative critics - we still love this genre and hope that it will be improved - and the more we complain and criticise the more of a loss we feel. And that's why I argue with so many foolish people on this board, because the clearly aren't mature or intelligent enough to see that if all these people are complaining it's only because they feel like they've lossed something, and are fighting to try and regain it. But no one seems to understand that. Or perhaps alot of the members on this board are of the 'youth' variety, who knows.

Charles.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Willem


There are some who are capable of both you know. Maybe you prefer to see things in black & white, but there's always a lot of grey in the middle.
Just because someone has some good things to say about the game doesn't automatically make them a "fanboy", which seems to be the assumption that many of the "whiners" are making.

Exactly, you just repeated what I was saying but only in different wording. Although I admit yes, often exists a shade of grey in the middle and things aren't always black and white. However in this case, that's the easiest way to explain how 'indifference' clashes. And frankly Willem, I don't agree with either labels (Fanboy or Whiner) I think when those terms are being used that people have dried up the argument and are beginning to resort to labels, titles, cheap name calling and often someone will resort to 'philisophical' and 'literal' quotes to attemp to reinforce their material. It's all silly argumentation, and cheap debate tactics. But what it boils down to is this, there are a variety of emotions and thoughts when it comes to this game, and they are obviously clashing - for any of this to go away or heal properly Firaxis must step in and do something. Until then this whole thing will be one big messy spot on the pavement, but I agree with you for the most part.

Charles.

[Ironikinit]

Originally posted by Sze

Us whiners are not whining because we find it too difficult, or too different; we're not complaining because it's not our cup of tea. Just the opposite, Civ is very much what we like and we'd love a new challenge. We are complaining because the game is broken, flawed, incomplete, and ill-conceived. It's not our "opinion" that these things are true; it's fact. If you fanboys want to overlook the obvious, that's your prerogative.

I beg to differ. The game is not broken, I played it this afternoon for a couple hours and it worked fine.

There are elements that are, to some but not me, important missing pieces, such as multiplayer and additions to the editor. They are missing from my copy of Civ II as well. To me, unimportant, and I'd hardly want to wait around for the game to be released so that trivia such as that could be added on. And I certainly wouldn't want to pay extra for features I don't want or need.

Don't give opinions and call them facts.

Fact: Civ 3 has no multiplayer mode.

Problem? Not to me. To you it's lack may be keenly felt. But it doesn't make the game broken, flawed, or incomplete. It makes it a game that doesn't have multiplayer.

Fact: In Civ 3, bombard units, including airplanes, can't destroy units.

Problem? For some. I consider it a good decision not only for play balance but in terms of realism. It's a rule of the game that some disagree with, but it's not a flaw except as a possibly flawed rule, in some people's opinions.

I've noticed one flaw in the program since I installed the patch. Once in a while it will crash. That's a problem. A minor one.

I find your post long on attitude and short on facts, given that you claim to be talking about facts. I'm not even sure what part of the game you're complaining about, so I had to guess. Was it because it needed a patch? Welcome to 2002.

In short, what's your problem? Be assured, it's yours, whatever it is. That's a fact.

[CharlesUFarley]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


Ways too simple. We call it "Black and White painting" here, I don't know if there's an English equivalent.

You forget about the large mass, who are content with the game, knowing that it's far away from being perfect, and that needs to get big improvements to match the Civ2 populatity. People who still bear hope about the next patch (which seems to be released soon), and a decent gold edition and something like that. People who are aware, that once paying 40 or 50 bucks doesn't give them a right to "be licked till they moan" (sorry, bad analogy). People who do neither praise the game nor complain (both repeating the same words like parrots), but just play.

I agree that the whole 'black and white' thing seems a radical way of explaination, but as I said to Willem the whole B&W thing does exist when two different views clash. And I never said that other shades or colors (opinions/views) didn't exist, I merely stated that two colors will often clash as a result of pointless debate. Perhaps you didn't read what I wrote. However, I don't agree with you when you say that there is a category of fans that offer 'nothing' to the table but merely complain for the sake of complaining. Everyone, has something to say, and they say it for a reason. Who are we (you or I) to judge anyone on what is acceptable expression and what is not. Everyone has the right to express their emotions and views regardless of how offensive or insulting they become - be the mature one and deal with it by walking away when you read something offensive, don't play the hero by adding to the crap. You've hijacked my posts on several occasions with you're meaningless mid-point commentary which bares little or no importance to my discussion with the individual I was engaged with. I'm aware of the entire scope of things, both what is right with the game, and what is wrong with the game, I don't need a 3rd input from an argumentive troll who decides to throw in his 2 cents everytime I turn around. Practice what you preach or I'll put you on ignore and believe me I haven't done that to anyone yet!

Charles.

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Sze
I think the Beatles would be far less popular if their third album (A Hard Days Night) was rushed out of the studio with auditory glitches, incomplete tracks, and an album jacket that listed more songs than the album actually contained.

I strongly disagree. The Beatle's music was so superior and original that imperfections in the production would be irrelevant. Just as people eagerly listen to very poor quality Grateful Dead "concert tapes," so people would still listen to the Beatles.