Negativity is all too common - Page 2

Sceptor107 · February 10, 2002, 17:53

I like CTP better than Civ3. Civilitation 3 is very bugged.

CharlesUFarley · February 10, 2002, 17:55

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Originally posted by Ironikinit
I beg to differ. The game is not broken, I played it this afternoon for a couple hours and it worked fine.

There are elements that are, to some but not me, important missing pieces, such as multiplayer and additions to the editor. They are missing from my copy of Civ II as well. To me, unimportant, and I'd hardly want to wait around for the game to be released so that trivia such as that could be added on. And I certainly wouldn't want to pay extra for features I don't want or need.

Don't give opinions and call them facts.

Iron - there 'were' flaws in the game, that's why they patched it! And the missing features that you say are so unimportant and not needed to make for a better game - we're promised to the fans for the past 5 years through feedback and suggestions based on Civ2 and how we could improve it. I was there, I know what they told us - mind you this was under the "MPS" banner, and the development team was much larger, things easily and swiftly change in life, but emotions are forever.

Charles.

Harovan · February 10, 2002, 18:26

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Originally posted by CharlesUFarley
Everyone has the right to express their emotions and views regardless of how offensive or insulting they become...

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Originally posted by CharlesUFarley You've hijacked my posts on several occasions with you're meaningless mid-point commentary which bares little or no importance to my discussion with the individual I was engaged with.

Am I the only one who sees the antagonism in the 2 quotes above?

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Originally posted by CharlesUFarley Practice what you preach or I'll put you on ignore and believe me I haven't done that to anyone yet!

If that's all what you can do, go ahead!

CharlesUFarley · February 10, 2002, 19:13

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Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Am I the only one who sees the antagonism in the 2 quotes above?

Fact is, you're opinion clashes with mine - so what's the point?

Charles.

hoonak · February 10, 2002, 19:36

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Here's how it works

Ahhh. The great Charles U. Farley has decided to step down from his mountain and explain things to me.

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appraisilists feel threatened by critics because critics are reminding the appraisilists of that which is wrong with the game. People don't like to be reminded of what is wrong with something they enjoy, simple. Critics on the other hand are threatened by appraisilists because if the voice of 'praise' is louder than the voice of "what is wrong with the game" Firaxis will think that it's fine the way it is, and move on.

Thank you, oh wise and benevolent Charles U. Farley. I see you have oversimplified and generalized so that even an uneducated mollusk like myself can understand the arcane concept of competing viewpoints. I am unworthy of your benevolence. If I may be permitted the impertinance of asking a question of Your Excellence: what is an appraisilist? I am unable to find this word in the dictionary. Do you plan to have it added to the next dictionary?

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Let the critics complain I say, because it's the complaints and negativity in mass that will get Firaxis to come to bearings with all this.

Thank you again, oh colossal and shining Charles U. Farley for validating my existence by repeating what I just said.

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And that's why I argue with so many foolish people on this board, because the clearly aren't mature or intelligent enough to see that if all these people are complaining it's only because they feel like they've lossed something

Blessings upon you, Charles U. Farley. Surely YOU are a Towering Beacon of Intelligence and Compassion. It is my fond hope that the people you are helping will not feel insulted when you refer to them as foolish, immature or unintelligent. I hope I do not offend thee, O Lord, but "lossed" is not a word. The proper spelling is lost.

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But no one seems to understand that. Or perhaps alot of the members on this board are of the 'youth' variety, who knows.

Thank you for your tireless efforts at making up our minds for us, but your vigilance has led to exhaustion. You have failed to notice that we do understand what you are talking about, in spite of our youth.

Great One, I have one more gift for you. This is an honor I have never bestowed upon anyone before. You shall be the first individual I will have placed on my "ignore list" in any forum or bulletin board.

Goodbye forever,
Best regards,
Hoonak

MOHonor · February 10, 2002, 20:33

this post left intentionally blank.

CharlesUFarley · February 10, 2002, 21:27

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Originally posted by hoonak
Thank you, oh wise and benevolent Charles U. Farley. I see you have oversimplified and generalized so that even an uneducated mollusk like myself can understand the arcane concept of competing viewpoints. I am unworthy of your benevolence. If I may be permitted the impertinance of asking a question of Your Excellence: what is an appraisilist? I am unable to find this word in the dictionary. Do you plan to have it added to the next dictionary?

Sorry, must be my globe of invulnerability wearing thin.

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Thank you again, oh colossal and shining Charles U. Farley for validating my existence by repeating what I just said.

No problem.

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Blessings upon you, Charles U. Farley. Surely YOU are a Towering Beacon of Intelligence and Compassion. It is my fond hope that the people you are helping will not feel insulted when you refer to them as foolish, immature or unintelligent. I hope I do not offend thee, O Lord, but "lossed" is not a word. The proper spelling is lost.

Sorry "Lost". And when someone becomes foolish, behaves immaturely or lacks any wisdom or basic intelligence in a debate, then yes a name or two slips out - it has been known to happen, it's kind of like meaningless sarcasm.

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Thank you for your tireless efforts at making up our minds for us, but your vigilance has led to exhaustion. You have failed to notice that we do understand what you are talking about, in spite of our youth.

Speak for yourself, I don't think anyone is (cough) as smart as you. And when you're done putting words in my mouth and correcting my gramar (because it makes you all so much smarted than the rest of us) I welcome maturity at any time.

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Great One, I have one more gift for you. This is an honor I have never bestowed upon anyone before. You shall be the first individual I will have placed on my "ignore list" in any forum or bulletin board.

You'll be missed.

Charles.

Harovan · February 11, 2002, 09:38

The word "gramar" is wonderful, a contradiction in terms... Oops, sorry, off-topic!

ACooper · February 11, 2002, 12:46

Thank you Charles for proving the point of this thread. Your negativity is boundless.

BTW, are you Libertarian's brother or something?

CharlesUFarley · February 11, 2002, 15:56

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Originally posted by ACooper
Thank you Charles for proving the point of this thread. Your negativity is boundless.

BTW, are you Libertarian's brother or something?

Well ..... umm.... Alice? Can I call you Alice?

No, I'm not related to Lib, although fond of his views on the matter. I appologize for offending you with my negativity, but last time I checked that was the topic of this thread.

Charles.

CharlesUFarley · February 11, 2002, 15:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
The word "gramar" is wonderful, a contradiction in terms... Oops, sorry, off-topic!

Something like that.

Rather than arguing about pointless crap, how about we get back on topic here, I'll begin... So do you feel that if we remain patient, quiet and poised Firaxis we'll eventually act on our behalf? Just curious, thought that would be a good start.

Charles.

Harovan · February 11, 2002, 16:30

Charles, I'm unsure if I wish to "start" with you, but here's what I think:

Firaxis is lurking Apolyton and Civfanatics regularly (as Markos reported, he has the power to see it). Hence, we can assume (almost sure), that they know what the fans want. No need to repeat it over and over. They stated in the end of last year, that they work on a second patch. I've heard it, many others too, I don't know why you missed it.

If they are asked politely, they throw in a short comment. Look up the thread "When does the AI ask for peace(Soren?)" for example. It proves, that they make constructive statements and not only "lame excuses". But this does not concern the features in the next patch. Every software house I worked in had the policy, that features of new software (or new versions!) are a "top secret" till it's clear that they

- run properly without making other things worse
- the management approved their release (often a monetary question, especially if an extra pack is planned)

While I don't "like" the silence of the Firaxians concerning the next patch (I'm civing for 10 years now and no less "hardcore" than you), I can understand it, because the policy sounds familiar. I stated this in the "MOO3" thread, but you completely ignored it.

But I have noticed, that the time when Firaxians show up, is often late evening in America, so I suspect, they mainly surf Apolyton in their spare time. Would you like in your spare time to be insulted, ranted at and accused in "ruining a perfect game"? Certainly not, and so I think, many of the hardcore "critics" (I fear you are included) are simply ignored. So nothing you said after a certain point will even been read by them.

There is another danger: Apolyton is no official Firaxis or Infogrames board, but a fan site. If insulted too much, Firaxis may cease to respond here at all, which would be terribly bad.

I would suggest all sides to relax for a few weeks and wait for the patch #2. We will see what it brings. I doubt that the game will be perfect after it, but it will be better almost for sure.

CharlesUFarley · February 11, 2002, 16:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Charles, I'm unsure if I wish to "start" with you, but here's what I think:

Firaxis is lurking Apolyton and Civfanatics regularly (as Markos reported, he has the power to see it). Hence, we can assume (almost sure), that they know what the fans want. No need to repeat it over and over. They stated in the end of last year, that they work on a second patch. I've heard it, many others too, I don't know why you missed it.

If they are asked politely, they throw in a short comment. Look up the thread "When does the AI ask for peace(Soren?)" for example. It proves, that they make constructive statements and not only "lame excuses". But this does not concern the features in the next patch. Every software house I worked in had the policy, that features of new software (or new versions!) are a "top secret" till it's clear that they

- run properly without making other things worse
- the management approved their release (often a monetary question, especially if an extra pack is planned)

While I don't "like" the silence of the Firaxians concerning the next patch (I'm civing for 10 years now and no less "hardcore" than you), I can understand it, because the policy sounds familiar. I stated this in the "MOO3" thread, but you completely ignored it.

But I have noticed, that the time when Firaxians show up, is often late evening in America, so I suspect, they mainly surf Apolyton in their spare time. Would you like in your spare time to be insulted, ranted at and accused in "ruining a perfect game"? Certainly not, and so I think, many of the hardcore "critics" (I fear you are included) are simply ignored. So nothing you said after a certain point will even been read by them.

There is another danger: Apolyton is no official Firaxis or Infogrames board, but a fan site. If insulted too much, Firaxis may cease to respond here at all, which would be terribly bad.

I would suggest all sides to relax for a few weeks and wait for the patch #2. We will see what it brings. I doubt that the game will be perfect after it, but it will be better almost for sure.

For once Ralphy I completely and surely agree with you 100%! That's always been my view on the matter, I just rarely show it. I guess my patience and courtesy sometimes becomes burried in the anger and agitation that I feel Firaxis has caused me, especially as a dedicated fan and consumer for the last 10 years!

And let me just explain my view and why I become this negative tyrant. For starters it takes me alot longer to cool down after being disapointed then most. And even when I was polite and offered a more productive plea, Firaxis ignored me even then.. for 25 polite emails I got maybe 1 vague response (if I was lucky!). And when people start to defend them, that's when I become offended.

It's like one of those things; "That salesmen ripped me off, why would you defend him?" scenario. But that's just a view and should remain as such. I sincerely don't expect people to share the same view, and right now I don't blame them.. alot of us critics are displaying a fine portrait of burn Firaxis at the stake right now. I don't agree that we should be this way, but I guess we have one flaw - human emotion. I guess the reality of it is, we should contain the emotions of disapointment and "suck it back" so to speak with patience. And when they fail again, BURN EM!!! No, joking. I know they'll come around, it's just the mystery and long development durations that will task us. Well, this message was much better Ralphy, I would say the scores are even, I thank you for you're courtesy and a well written post, cheers!

Charles.

Harovan · February 11, 2002, 17:16

Unbelievable, Charley. You agree 100% to the same facts I stated in the MOO3 thread, where it was "meaningless childish slanderous rant"?

Well, thanks, with your post and an Euro I'm going to have a Burger at Mickey D. tomorrow. Have a nice evening.

Heliodorus · February 11, 2002, 17:37

The first page of this thread was almost enlightened. It was quite interesting, the initial discussion about positive and negative commentary. The second page was disappointingly familiar.

I should point out for the record (for those who care) that I both liked Civ3, but was disappointed that it didn't have that certain something to make it a classic. The reasons have been enumerated ceaselessly. But I'm looking forward greatly to a patch; meantime, I play my X-Box....

My post is aimed at steering this away from the ad hominem stuff (except to say that Libertarian was one of the greatest posters ever to grace these pages, and I miss him), and even away from stepping into the mindset of Firaxian readers.

There's a fine line to constructive criticism in pursuit of an honest evaluation of something. As a gross amateur student of western culture, I think one of the more important philosophical tenants is self-criticism. Introspective self-analysis enables the virtue of constant improvement, which in turn fosters the progress brought about by constantly setting new goals (or so I would think).

Unfortunately, deconstruction is a necessary tool for all of that to be effective. And, also unfortunately deconstruction is much easier to do than construction. It strikes me that a lot of people think that constant deconstruction equates with constant improvement, and thus, deconstructive thinkers and speakers are being deluded into thinking that their critical analysis of any given thing is making it better. Given that our western culture (and I speak predominately of America, my homeland, in this case) is a culture of immediate gratification, this deconstructive urge is coupled with legendary (but real) impatience, and all you end up with is a message board filled with sound and fury, signifying nothing (except monumental shortsightedness - and Lib, if you're reading this, please forgive my plagiarization from the Bard).

It's gravely disappointing to me how destructiveness is foisted as critically incisive analysis. For the record, even I am guilty of it (as I distinctly remember saying something derogatory to MOHonor in a moment of impatient destructiveness which I regret having posted).

The most important aspect of being critical is how to implement the lessons we learn in that process toward tomorrow's improvmenents. In the case of Civ3, there are two things to think about. First, we the Civ-loving community can't actually DO anything constructive to make Civ3 a better game EXCEPT for post our critical insights into the Civ3 gameplay. It's up to Firaxis to actual construct a better Civ3 - our role is to be good patrons of their art, which I don't think we are when we claim with caustic deprications that we were betrayed. Second, for those who had a negative Civ3 experience, the important point is not what Firaxis did to lead you to that negative experience, because as I said, there's nothing you can do to the product, really, to actually construct a better one. No, the point to consider is how YOUR actions lead you to purchase a product that ultimately lead you to be disappointed - such as buy a game on hype, or based on an inaccurate review from a magazine or website, or some such. Because in being a critical analyst of your actions, you might learn how not to repeat them in the future, and thus, you will have achieved a personal improvement in your life, if not to Civ3.

Yeah, I'll get off the podium now...

Tarquelne · February 11, 2002, 18:02

"deconstructive thinkers and speakers are being deluded into thinking that their critical analysis of any given thing is making it better. "

I hope you're not refering to "deconstruction" the analytic/philsophical method. I think Deconstructionists are only slightly more deluded than the average person.

I'd like to make one further very blunt point: If the vehement, oft-repeated "criticism" is also _wrong_ then it's definetly not helping anything.
I don't feel like pointing to any specific "criticisms" - except that I don't find the use of profanity in comments about the lack of stack movement entirely unreasonable - but I'd really hate for a boneheaded suggestion to get into the game just because someone repeated often enough.

CharlesUFarley · February 11, 2002, 18:23

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Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Unbelievable, Charley. You agree 100% to the same facts I stated in the MOO3 thread, where it was "meaningless childish slanderous rant"?

Well, thanks, with your post and an Euro I'm going to have a Burger at Mickey D. tomorrow. Have a nice evening.

No, it wasn't "what" you were saying, it was "how" you were saying it that I had a problem with. I do have some principles. Enjoy you're burger.

Charles.

ACooper · February 11, 2002, 21:29

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.. for 25 polite emails I got maybe 1 vague response (if I was lucky!).

Sounds like stalking to me.

Explains a lot.

CharlesUFarley · February 11, 2002, 23:53

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Originally posted by ACooper
Sounds like stalking to me.

Explains a lot.

Well then I guess every member of the community is a stalker.

25 emails isn't much - considering a 10 year fan base.

Charles.

Chronus · February 12, 2002, 01:05

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Praising and gloating about how good the game is inside the forums in the direct audience of Critics won't improve the game, no. And telling Firaxis how good of a job they did will only take away from us trying to improve the game, because they'll hear all these compliments and think everything is okay and they'll be less likely to fix things. Get it now? Don't twist my words!

I think you misunderstood me. You said . . .

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But one thing remains certain, only criticism will improve the game, not praise.

As far as I can tell, this means "no praise, whatsoever . . . only criticism".

I disagreed and said . . .

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Perhaps you meant a healthy balance of both criticism and praise would do the trick?

Note my use of the word "and". I am NOT excluding criticism. I am merely adding the "praise" component.

I was not twisting your words. I thought your "no praise" idea was extreme and so I was looking for a confirmation from you in the form of a question.

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I strongly disagree. The Beatle's music was so superior and original that imperfections in the production would be irrelevant. Just as people eagerly listen to very poor quality Grateful Dead "concert tapes," so people would still listen to the Beatles.

This was a rather nice diversion.

CharlesUFarley · February 12, 2002, 02:18

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Originally posted by Chronus
I think you misunderstood me. You said . . .

As far as I can tell, this means "no praise, whatsoever . . . only criticism".

No, I didn't mean all criticism and no praise, in fact both are healthy forms of expression. But in terms of improving the game after it's been released - I don't see how 'praising' it will help, maybe you can tell me how...?

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Note my use of the word "and". I am NOT excluding criticism. I am merely adding the "praise" component.

Well in terms of praise and how it is applied, I think after each good patch and improvement the developers should receive some praise, but IMO not before they improve the issue at hand.

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I was not twisting your words. I thought your "no praise" idea was extreme and so I was looking for a confirmation from you in the form of a question.

My appologies Chronus, I guess you caught me in the middle of a heated debate.

I agree with you, a little praise can't hurt, it might actually build some motivation, but if it doesn't - then the improvement we all want might not happen.

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This was a rather nice diversion.

Yeah, the beetles. That was pretty well timed.

Charles.

Libertarian · February 12, 2002, 07:24

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BTW, are you Libertarian's brother or something?

Nah. If Charley were my brother, Mark would ban him for a week and take pot-shots at him while he can't respond.

Like this one:

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Charles, you are falling into the "libertarian trap"
just because Dan choose to not reply to your little rant (with arguments that have been posted lots of times in the past and have been answered) doesnt mean anything.

Found here