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Old February 19, 2002, 19:28   #31
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Ah, I missed Frank and Prom's comments above.

I really like Frank's idea for the non advanced native peoples tribe. While I always love a full 7 player game I could go for 6 if his idea is implemented.

Prom's criticism is valid about just bribing them and getting free cities, so we do have to give the AI civ a few decent units and make bribing expensive (though not impossible). Or make it a rule you can't bribe the natives.

Lets see... give them warriors, horse, archer, diplomat, all with pikeman, explorer and perhaps sub bonuses. The archer could be a mean unit. Let them have some buildings too. Marketplace, Granaries, umm, maybe thats it.

Its innovative, practical and could be lots of fun. Lets do it!
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Old February 19, 2002, 20:27   #32
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I am still going for Seven players; it adds a bit more fun, no 3 on 3.

And as far as Geopolitical concerns I don’t know about two in Europe and none in Australia. It was pretty crowed last game with only 6 people in the Old World. However I understand Oz’s criticism of how Europe could be powerful but that might not happen, a bad player or even a good player can screw up, and besides according to Balance of power politics that would mean a powerful European player would only have more enemies to watch out for.

My suggestion,
Australia: 1
Mid East: 1
Central Asia: 1
Europe: 1
East Asia: 1
Africa: 2

But if we only have six players I would suggest Africa only having one also. Or as Oz said if we wanted a challenge, more than one could start in Europe, now if all of us did, that would be a real interesting game.

Anyway what we really have to decide is how the End Game is going to work out so far we have the traditional endings and my suggestion of just ending at a certain date this is something that has to be decided.

Things I think that have been decided…
No SDI
No City Bribing (unit bribing still up in the air)
Tech at least 15/10
Increased Naval/Air unit movement
World Map (Hotw)


We still need to decide
Number of Players(7 or 6)
When we are playing ( Wed or Tuesday = opted for because of Deity)
Who is playing
What Tribes and locations (besides Oz, who is adamantly for Arabs Mid East)
Any new Units/techs
Barbarians in American or not
End Game (how the end will come)
When are we starting
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Old February 19, 2002, 20:49   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Prometheus
But if we only have six players I would suggest Africa only having one also. Or as Oz said if we wanted a challenge, more than one could start in Europe, now if all of us did, that would be a real interesting game.
I could be up for that.

Quote:
Originally posted by Prometheus
Anyway what we really have to decide is how the End Game is going to work out so far we have the traditional endings and my suggestion of just ending at a certain date this is something that has to be decided.
I really like my Alien invasion idea from HOTW2.

Quote:
Originally posted by Prometheus
Things I think that have been decided…
No SDI
No City Bribing (unit bribing still up in the air)
Tech at least 15/10
Increased Naval/Air unit movement
World Map (Hotw)
I don't care about SDI. I certainly have not agreed on city bribing. It is an integral part of the game. Make it more expensive, but don't take it out. Slowed tech is fine, increased movement is fine. My world map is definately fine.

Quote:
Originally posted by Prometheus
We still need to decide
Number of Players(7 or 6)
When we are playing ( Wed or Tuesday = opted for because of Deity)
Who is playing
What Tribes and locations (besides Oz, who is adamantly for Arabs Mid East)
Any new Units/techs
Barbarians in American or not
End Game (how the end will come)
When are we starting
-I'm fine with 7, and 6 is good with Franks plan.
-Wed or Tues are good for me.
-I'd like to see some new faces. I'm in I hope.
-I gave my thoughts on this, I deffinately think 2 in Europe is a good idea. There is more good land in Europe than in Africa.
-yea, new units are good.
-Barbs yea, go with Frank's plan.
-Aliens! Aliens! Or some of my other creative ideas from HOTW2.
-Late March or early April sounds good to start.
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Old February 19, 2002, 22:54   #34
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Can I see this HOTW map again? I know I played a few sessions on it I'd just like to see it......since we are arguing over starting places.

The problem with trying to increase the cost of city bribing is the only way I know to do it is increase the cost of diplomats and spies.....which also increases the cost of ALL their functions....embassies...etc....

What about wonders? I'm of the opinion that wonders just make the rich richer...and I usually exclude them from diplo games except for apollo and manhattan of course...you may have your own opinions, but later on when I build up a huge army and smack people around usually my #1 excuse is they took all the good wonders and deserve to die..... hehe..and since people tend to put 50 wonders in their capital I end up having to rip their heart out when all I really want to do is weaken them.

But really Capo we need your input....its your mod...so we need him to come and say what he likes.........
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Old February 19, 2002, 23:25   #35
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The official History Of The World III map is here. Marvel at the detail, accuracy and kick-arse-ness. Pick a spot that you fancy.
Attached Files:
File Type: zip real world.zip (4.9 KB, 14 views)
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Old February 19, 2002, 23:30   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Frank Johnson
But really Capo we need your input....its your mod...so we need him to come and say what he likes.........
Don't forget this game is for all of us. I just want to say something straight out and prempt any problems that may evolve. Don't let Capo railroad us into doing what he commands. He is an arrogant tool, he knows this, hehe. And he will gladly tell us to screw off if we don't see things the way he does. With his dismal attendence and neverending soap opera that helped end HOTW2 I don't think anyone should stand for his dictates when he makes them.

I don't say this to disparage Capo, he is a wonderful diploplayer, and he makes good mods. He always enriches games, but you've got to be firm with the boy.
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Old February 19, 2002, 23:52   #37
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boy, now i'm just spamming... hehe.

Quote:
Originally posted by Frank Johnson
The problem with trying to increase the cost of city bribing is the only way I know to do it is increase the cost of diplomats and spies.....which also increases the cost of ALL their functions....embassies...etc....
Hmmm, there isn't some thing you can toggle to make things cost more? You'd think so since costs vary depending on several factors. Like government and such. There has got to be some number you can change in some .txt thing to make all bribing activity more costly. Problem is one of the benifits of Democracy is the bribing protection, to outlaw bribing is to take away this positive from Democracy.

Quote:
Originally posted by Frank Johnson
What about wonders?
I like wonders. They deviate from the multiplayer holy grail of "balance" which i think is wonderful. The Saturday Night Diplogame was honestly rather dull since it didn't have wonders. There were no races, it was just build, trade, build, build, trade, invent. Blah, boooring. Wonders give a little spice to the game.

Which brings me to another point. We need to destroy the predictability of these games. My biggest problem with Civ2 is that multiplayer in many ways is no different than single player, everyone has their formulas and things are pretty cut and dry among good players. The Sat. Night Dip all has really good players, that know step by step how to be the biggest and best. Booring.

How to solve this? I dunno, perhaps some random event natural disasters. This just popped in my head 5 seconds ago, so it must be good. Lets say we make earthquakes, tornados, and hurricanes. These can be random Barbarian units that pop up randomly (not too often) and function like cruise missles, striking a close city once, destroying something and then its over. It'd be damn cool. Implement it!
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Old February 20, 2002, 00:16   #38
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Well it is Capo’s baby so he gets a say, but your right once the game starts we are all part of it and no we don’t have to do what Capo says but since this is his game he gets a good say at the beginning.

I like Wonders, but I don’t need them, so I am not worrying about wonders so much, I say just keep them.
But I don’t think we need Natural disasters, the game usually is as interesting as the people who play are willing to be conniving and plotting.

Interaction between people is what makes Diplo games fun.

On that note, I have a laptop and its new and every time I try to download a game from the site, or the map it comes out as a file but never a save or a map file, any idea’s how to fix this?
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Old February 20, 2002, 00:18   #39
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Ah.....well the only problem I get in a diplo game is when wonders are around all the good ones seem to fall to one person with the best land, or lucky start, and then no one but me sees the need to knock them down a peg.....and the game devovles from simply boring, to maybe even futile...as pretty soon the top guy and his clueless lackies sit around....waiting for end game.....
Nothing against HOTW2......but.....really there was alot of drama, but no real competativness as any realistic plan to stop deity went down the drains when I left the mongols for college. In the sat night diplo game everyone is a fairly close matched contender, almost, so in the end I'd say it has more competativness and drama because everyone is in the game.

Letting people get powerful wonders then making people reclucant to fight is a bad combination. If I cant do anything about the first, I'll be sure to do soemthing about the other.


But tell me about this alien invasion idea. Its some other way to end the game? If its designed with events, how is it unpartial enough to end the game? Like how would you choose where and in what numbers the baddies would come.......

Also as far as I know theres no bribing constant thing that you can edit. Ive been through the files quite often.....and made a few mods myself....but never saw a way to do this. Democracy doesnt really need anymore benefits, since its the obvious choice for a peaceful nation, and it still has the benefit of players not having to double stack fortified units in fortresses in the feild.

Also your map ain't working (damn apolyton).......says something about the zip being corrupt........
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Old February 20, 2002, 00:31   #40
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Well there was no need to take Deity down so to speak, A diplo game should of allowed people to oppose him with out resorting to military force, a diplomatic coalition or the like, but no one offered a plan of action. We just need to decide on an end game that does not end in World Conquest or Apollo’s, I don’t really care what it is but if you want the best where there is competition and not just nation super growth it cant be Apollo’s
Like I said I have no problem getting rid of the wonders but you should kick out Apollo's too and Manhattans if that is what we decide.
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Old February 20, 2002, 01:09   #41
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lol see what I mean......no one is willing to stop anyone else from winning so whats the point :P
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Old February 20, 2002, 01:16   #42
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I don’t think it was that we were not willing to stop him its just we were still on the dual goals of conquest or Apollo’s… its just with everyone thinking two dimensional you lack something, in the real world, they had a race for the moon but it did not end the game so to speak. That’s why for a diplo game deciding the end game is so important and we have to give it some thought.
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Old February 20, 2002, 15:13   #43
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Ok, below are my posts from the other game with ideas for ending possibilities. My fav is the Independence Day ending, but we need to think creatively to come up with something that will work for all of us.
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Old February 20, 2002, 15:16   #44
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Drake is right there is absolutly no way we can keep going till 2000, that will take forever.

Though it does present a third ending option. So far we have:

1. Play until a mutually agreed upon date (before 2000 I hope!)
2. Play until AC (Alpha Centuri)
3. Play until all the players have been eliminated except one. (conquest)

Other possibilities:

4. Play until a player or alliance accumulates a set amount of cash. (100,000 or so)
5. Play until a player or alliance can hold all wonders of the world for a set amount of time.
6. Equate the United Nations with world peace and after it is built we all start singing kumbya and walk off into the sunset holding hands as brothers.
7. Build UN and negotiate a peace deal to placate all the warmongers and then if total peace can be maintained peace for a set amount of turns we go to option 6.
8. The first nation to take Deities' cap is winner, or if Deity can hold onto his cap for X amount of turns he wins.
9. Play till year X and then determine winner based on how they treated their nation's environment, minus major points for polution and minus minor points for irrigation and terrain change.
10. Capo can tweak the game so that Aliens land in the form of hyper-powerful barbarians and the world has to band together to meet some scenario condition to free earth from the Aliens.
11. Game ends upon Global Warming.
12. All nations join together in "Hands Across The Globe" demonstration and all nations line up land and naval units which forms a continuous chain around the world.
13. Continue till Future tech X.
14. Continue till living standards of all humans up to par. (i.e. all cities must have certain buildings built)
15. Metalhead empire evolves from the smoking husk of the UAS and takes over the world with their killer riffs and head-banging.


I dunno, there are many possibilities, i'm sure we could all do some brain storming and find some ending that we agree upon which doesn't necessarily have to be the one that the game picked for us. This is a Diplogame, we create the game ourselves, so why not make up a suitable ending? It can be anything, our imagination is our boundries (and our ability to persuade the other people in the game).

It seems no one is happy with the standard endings of world conquest and space ship so think up something else. I put up a list of possibilities pick and debate things from my list or make your own lists to give us more options. The possibilites are endless.

Personally I like the Alien ending, has anyone played the Alien scenario? We could do it like that, but make it harder. It is plausible, think of the movie Independence Day. And we don't HAVE to band together, perhaps if Deity thinks he'd be better able to save the world by conquering everyone he could try that. Or perhaps building the space ship could be tweaked to give us some special edge on the Aliens. There is a lot we can do with this ending, I like it. Maybe we could bring this to the Civ2 Creation forum and see what they can come up with. They might be very interested in this. Anyways, thats my opinion.
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Old February 20, 2002, 15:17   #45
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Scooby-Doo Ending
Doodily-do-doodily-do Doodily-do-doodily-do

Drake -"Wow, we beat Deity, well that wraps it up, but there's one last thing. Lets just see who you really are Mr."

*Drake removes Deity's mask*

Drake - "Why its old man Withers, the guy who runs the haunted amusement park!"

Deity - "And I would have gotten away with it too if it hadn't been for you snooping kids!"
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Old February 20, 2002, 15:33   #46
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Frank- The Alien Invasion/Independence Day ending would work like the scenario sorta. Some event would trigger it, we can decide what. Perhaps the first nuclear strike, perhaps the building of SETI (that works, eh?) or some other late game trigger.

At that point ruthless alien hordes appear randomly across the globe, bent on our destruction. Earth has to band together to drive them from the planet. Also now that I think of it, kinda like the ending to Colonization, when the colony declares itself independent mother country troops appear to try and conquer, if you fend them off, you win.

This can incorporate several different elements of end game. First the spaceship could be used in this ending, either as a trigger, or we could convert it to be some kinda super weapon somehow to aid earth in defeating the aliens.

Secondly it has benifits of being a cooperative win. No one person walks away with the crown. Diplogamings are supposed to be less about winning and loosing (like a ladder match) and more about the fun and creativity involved in playing. This would be perfect for that.

Third, it doesn't totally disregard standard motivations and such in the game. A Deity type player from HOTW2 that wants to be the biggest, best, and best armed nation could do so wanting to be better prepared to defeat the aliens. As I suggested before perhaps Deity from HOTW2 would find it in his best interest to conquer the humans to better fend off the aliens. So this ending skews it towards cooperative, but not devistatingly so.

Fourth, since there is still the uncertainty between conquer and cooperate people will be driven to play better during the game. A player who ruthlessly conquers his neighbors won't be trusted come time for the aliens and will fall. A player who plays super nice won't be powerful enough to fend of the aliens. Nice incentive for diplomacy and interaction.

Fifth, it would be ground breaking, incredibly innovative, and would be a damn lot of fun.


Ok, some problems that Frank pointed out. How would we determine where the aliens would land, could this be unfair and unbalancing? Not if we do it right. If this is a big concern we may want to get someone outside the game to create this part. Someone from Creation or Scenario League, this outsider will make it balanced and fair, and none of us will know about it, so we'll be surprized. Also, since the goal is to drive the aliens from the planet and since this is a more cooperative leaning ending it doesn't matter if they happen to beat one guy more, cause everyone on the planet will be equally hurt and concerned.

I think this is incredibly innovative, and an incredibly good idea. I STRONGLY suggest we give it a try, as other options are less satisfying and realistic.
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Old February 20, 2002, 15:42   #47
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Hm well I'll throw some ideas out here.

Statistics Based Ending - An ending based on an agreed formula that is determines victory at a certain point or highest after a certain time.

Armmageddon Ending - Play is as normal to a certain date. Then after that date, the game is made into a scenario, cities labeled objectives, cities with wonders and capitals major objectives. Victory is declared at a certain number of objectives.


MY personal Favorite: Victory by Globalization. Once the UN is built players can opt for a "shared victory" if 3 or more players agree to do so. (if left out, 2 players can form their own pact) The only problem is they must subdue nations outside their pact by seizing their capital and holding it 5 turns or convicing them to join the pact. If a pact member's capital is held by opposition forces for 5 turns, they must surrender, and leave the pact.
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Old February 20, 2002, 15:53   #48
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The only option I see that can make your scenario work is this Ozzy. The Aliens would have to be a civ, and they would have to be controled by a human player.

This could work nicely with a 6 player / natives game, because in the end the natives would be small (or gone ) and the aliens could then inhabit that civ. We could design the alien units and deside how many would be a fair fight, but the human player in control would choose where to put these units as they pleased. Its up to the human controling the aliens to be inpartial and use the forces in a manner which takes over the best industrial base, and not be influanced by in game politics.

The AI is just too stupid, in my opinion to waste a good end of game on......
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Old February 20, 2002, 18:54   #49
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Ok, as far as endings…

1.) I have no problem with the Aliens but I just don’t want our game to end with a space ship, and after the Aliens are defeated then what, we still have an ending problem, I don’t like the Super weapon or spaceship. I don’t like the ending to be wonder related
2.) I like Franks of a diplomatic ending but you should change it to 4 people pack if you have 7 in the game, or what ever the majority is.
3.) I also like the idea of time just running out, your rule comes to an end, after all as Oz said it’s more about playing than who wins or loses.
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Old February 21, 2002, 11:43   #50
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Pro, the idea about the packs is it doesnt have to be a majority to start, and to win it HAS to include everyone. It still has diplomatic and warful options....and can last as long as needed. For example if it was 4 v 3 in pacts, the 3 can get people to join their side over the 4.....it doesnt really matter.......Its kinda like a communism vs capitalism idealism war that we had that was fought economicly, diplomaticly, and in some places militarilly.....in my scenario now for the real world, it would probably be a 6 v1 pact with the Arabs being the only hold outs from the new world order lololol
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Old February 21, 2002, 14:16   #51
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Well Prom, defeating the Aliens would be the end of the game. Once their last unit is destroyed then humanity saves itself from extinction and enslavement by the evil aliens. Game over. We glorify ourselves for a game well played. Kinda like the time running out, but time runs out when the Aliens are driven from the planet.

Having a human player take control of the Aliens is a good idea too. Especially if we do 6 people and an AI native population, it'll work just fine. Frank and I talked about this last night and it looks like it is what we are going to do.

It seems Frank, Prom and I are the only ones really planning this thing out, so no whining from everyone else.
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Old February 21, 2002, 15:10   #52
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Ahhh in that case I have no problem with an Alien Ending or pact ending and with what ever you guys decided. Perhaps Frank or Oz could make the Mod pack since we seem to be missing Capo, no offence intended Capo, I know you’re a busy guy so maybe frank can make the Mod if that’s alright with Frank.

My hard drive crashed last night until its replacement arrives I am stuck to the Lab’s computers for now. But I will try to help decide. Lets have some votes.

1.) 6 Players due to the Alien option with Natives in the America’s

2.) SDI

3.) Wonders (Yea, Nah, Some)

4.) Bribing = A. None at all B. No City unless disorder C. complete D. other (Specify)

5.) Day of Play= (Tues Wed)

6.) New Units

7.) Increased Air Navel Movement

8.) New Techs

My Votes

1.) Yes
2.) No
3.) Yes
4.) Option B
5.) Either prefer Tuesday
6.) Doesn’t matter to me
7.) Yes
8.) Doesn’t matter

I think we can safely say that myself, Frank and Oz will all be playing in the game and that we will be using Oz’s world map and most likely if we can implement it the Aliens option or the Diplo Pact option or both. Anything else you guys can think of?
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Old February 21, 2002, 17:13   #53
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1.) Yes
2.) Doesn't Matter
3.) Yes
4.) Well I'd like C, but I am fine with B.
5.) Either works for me.
6.) Yes
7.) Yes
8.) Sure

Alright, the votes have begun. Now lets reclaim our other players. We seem to have dwindled to 3.

The people who were interested at last count:

Vets
Capo
Deity

Fresh Meat
Deity Dude
Dank
Kuja
Brian Bergs
Flatlander Fox

So this is the question. If we have all us vets in we will only have room for one new guy. It is always fun bringing in some new people. But of course with the way people come and go it is possible for one of us to leave and someone else who didn't start to play the whole game.

Right now I think the people who were interested should post and clarify if they are still interested and vote for the options on the table.
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Old February 21, 2002, 17:32   #54
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Civ Specific Units?
Would people be interested in Civ Specific Units ala Civ3?

we have 11 spots for new units. 3 of those will be for the natives, 3 for the aliens. Frank is making some new units for everyone, if we had 6 civ-specific units we'd eat up many of those new unit spots. But we could trash some other units that don't get used much.

Civ-Specific units would be cool to have in a diplogame. I think they'd be cool, but I could live without them. What do people think?

9.) Should we make 6 civ-specific units?



9. Yea
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Old February 21, 2002, 17:55   #55
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I am still very much interested in playing. As for my vote:

1) yes
2) don't care
3) yes with perhaps an increased cost to build them?
4) whatever is cool with me
5) prefer wednesday, but i can do tuesdays starting at 10 PM EST
6) yes
7) yes
8) eh... depends.. don't care really
9) yes, if i am scots i could have a william wallace or something cool, hehe
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Old February 21, 2002, 18:01   #56
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I can pretty easily do special units for each civ. Each civ would get 1 each......and they would be allowed to change it after any session where they had none of the special unit left.

I would have to make you follow some strict rules to make sure the units would be balanced fairly. It would have to be a military unit, no settlers, diplomats, or trade units.

Units would only be allowed to go up 1 degree in any certain catigory, and only allowed to give up 1 degree in any certain catigory to allow for a special. Also you cant make a special unit that is past your tech ability. Ex....you cant make a unit with 2hp untill you have gunpowder.

I'd be the final word on if the unit is legit. You'd just have to put up with that.
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Old February 21, 2002, 19:08   #57
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I can only sub, as my schedule doesn't allow me that much rigidity.

Sounds fun. I will be watching the game.
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Old February 22, 2002, 12:52   #58
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Well don't stop voting, but lets discuss a bit who people want to be.

Kuja, you want to be the Scots in Scotland? That'd be a good spot to start out I think, access to Europe and North America. In this case I deffinately think a Russian player would be a good idea to share Europe.

I want to be the Arabs. I'm sure you can find my special units from some scenarios. Janasaries or Marmalukes or something. I'll give it more thought when we get this ironed out more.

And Kuja, I don't think special singular units like William Wallace would work. It'd have to be a unit you could build several times, like you could have "Highlanders" or something.

Frank and Prom, where do you want?

Confirmed So Far
Prom
Frank
Ozzy
Kuja

Hurry up Capo.
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Old February 22, 2002, 13:25   #59
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yeah, highlanders sounds cool. or guys carrying bagpipes! lol... or what about a navel unit like the lockness monster? just ideas
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Old February 22, 2002, 18:15   #60
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You know me......I usually play in China.

I've come up with some guidelines for special units. Basicly the best way to come up with a new unit is to take an existing unit and slightly improve it, or to moderately improve it in one way and slightly disadvantage it in another.

Generally a defense point is worth twice to three times as much as an attack point. This is due to the typical walls and/or terrain and fortification bonuses.

In attack factors, no unit will exceed by more than 1 the attack factor of the best attack factor of the unit of the same movement rate that you currently have available. (thus if you have catapults you can have a 7 attack power 1 movement unit, or if you have crusaders you can have a 6 attack power 2 movement unit.)

No unit whose primary role is defense, or has the same (or higher) defense value of units whose primary role is defense is elligable for a defense increase. (You couldn't raise the defense factor of a phalanx to 3, but you could raise the defense of a chariot to 2.)

No unit will have 2 hp before gunpowder.

No sea unit will have 2 hp before navigation.

No Sea unit will have 3 hp before steam engine.

No sea unit will have 4 hp before automobile.

No Land unit will have 3 hp before mobile warfare.

No sea unit will have 2 firepower before Electricty.

No land unit will have 2 fire power before Machine tools.

Specials cost vary depending on the special ability chosen and the status of the unit. For example, apline ability is twice as good for a 2 movement unit and negating city walls doesnt help much for a 1 attack power unit. Some obvious specials cannot be used untill a certain technology is discovered, try anicent paradroppers, or nuclear submarine spotting sail vessals, and no losing the costal for ships untill navigation (but you could extend the movement and thus your chances for making it across an area). Remmber most air and naval units will already get some sort of bonus.

A special unit must have the role attack, defend, air superiory, naval superiority, or naval transport. (no settlers, caravans or diplos)

Bottom line take an existing unit, and improve it a bit. Or improve it more than a bit and jack up the price, or lose the advantage elsewhere. Also you have the follow the technology guidelines.

You can change the special unit anytime after a session when you have none of the special unit left.

Last edited by Frank Johnson; February 22, 2002 at 18:49.
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